British Engineering - Ahh - it ain't what it used to be lad!
Discussion
Or is it...?
This thread was triggered by a comment I made earlier whilst commenting on the Jowett’s Javelin, one of the finest cars ever to come out of Bradford (perhaps,actually the only one!- which is why they still produce them
) and the interminable subject of engineering lathes.
In a misty eyed moment I caught myself decrying the demise of British engineering almost to the backdrop music of Monty Python "I wanted to be a lumberjack" "The Spitfire, The Wellington, The Jaguar XK120, The Iron Bridge at Telford"...ahhh..indeed lad!
Do we British (he say's being half Irish) just beat ourselves up and turn dewy eyed as the BBC pushes out John Sergeant celebrating the 75th anniversary of the Spitfire as though we have nothing else in the cupboard to celebrate or should instead we be inspired by Evan Davis’s take, that in fact, British Engineering and manufacturing is alive and well?
The rapid response to UFO stories in Boats, Planes and Trains by many of the lads on here who work for BAE systems et al and their sometimes cryptic answers and comments says to me perhaps we should be.
What of the meteoric rise of the IT sector, the likes of AMD and Autonomy who were recently sold for $7.1b to HP – do they count as engineering?
I remember attending a presentation many moons ago at Warwick University when Ken Livingstone presented his support for investment in genetic engineering and his abhorrence of the demise of manufacturing; I listened and found myself fascinated, nodding, not liking his politics but liking what he said.
Lotus have just announced a £500m five year investment plan and one that Vice Cable supports with a £10M additional regional investment and a plan to increase the workforce by 1200 staff, the majority being new Engineers – impressive stuff indeed.
So where are we? Have we successfully cast aside the misty eye and spitfire dashboard as Jaguar have, recognised that the world that we compete in is governed by macro economics and that in order to survive that innovation is de-rigour?
Is innovation de-rigour? or have we forgotten to leave a place in our society for those not so well blessed with Einstein grey matter so that they in turn can contribute to our GDP with less temporal mechanical added value tasks that are not quite as de-meaning as serving KFC?
Across at VW Wolfsburg or PSA Sandouville, the mediocrity of product pouring out smacks to me of the old BL days when the man at the end of the line could slap a Wolsley, Austin, Morris badge on the car dependent upon what was in the stores- different manufacturer for sure but the principal is still the same – show me a Passat and I’d be hard pressed to tell it wasn’t a Seat or WHY …the cash is still pouring into the Deuetchbank, but it ain’t across here is it? and of course our wonderful Mini still fills German coffers.
Is this our fault, our governments fault or our own ambivalence to what is going on around us until it’s too late? The anecdotal stories of the old Rover/BWM Management rivalry undoubtedly were one such factor in that particular marriage failure but the fact that the lads in Longbridge fought so hard for their identity makes me thinks that perhaps the fight in the soul is still there to retain identity and pride in British Engineering – but what exactly is that? Castrol R and a J Type supercharger or electrons fired around a tunnel in Basle designed by the lads in Abingdon, Culham?
I’m not being jingoistic, don’t get me wrong and I applaud the removal of cultural, commercial and myopic barriers that we have in our upbringing - I’m asking the question “Have we, here in the UK, lost the ability to engineer and add value” because that in my eyes is what that part of Engineering is all about, it’s the ability to be adding value in the manufacturing process not just, spinning money round and round and adding 10% each time.
One might say I’m a hypocritical; I’m a Management Consultant and sure I get the old jokes time and time again (and no I don’t drive a BM ) but I do acknowledge that particular critism; in my defence I would say that I am aware of what I’m saying and what I’m asking.
I suppose I may have rambled a bit in my musing here and of course I have laid myself open to massive 45 (inch!!! geddit? ) shells being lobbed across at me. I don’t purport to know it all, less indeed have an answer, but to bring it back to a conclusion I would ask
1. Is our Engineering as good as it once was and why if you have an opinion do you say that?”
2. If you were a young lad of 17yrs age , being the petrol head that you are, after all you’re on this site
- where would you be putting your first steps on the career ladder and why would that be?
Over to you
This thread was triggered by a comment I made earlier whilst commenting on the Jowett’s Javelin, one of the finest cars ever to come out of Bradford (perhaps,actually the only one!- which is why they still produce them
) and the interminable subject of engineering lathes. In a misty eyed moment I caught myself decrying the demise of British engineering almost to the backdrop music of Monty Python "I wanted to be a lumberjack" "The Spitfire, The Wellington, The Jaguar XK120, The Iron Bridge at Telford"...ahhh..indeed lad!
Do we British (he say's being half Irish) just beat ourselves up and turn dewy eyed as the BBC pushes out John Sergeant celebrating the 75th anniversary of the Spitfire as though we have nothing else in the cupboard to celebrate or should instead we be inspired by Evan Davis’s take, that in fact, British Engineering and manufacturing is alive and well?
The rapid response to UFO stories in Boats, Planes and Trains by many of the lads on here who work for BAE systems et al and their sometimes cryptic answers and comments says to me perhaps we should be.
What of the meteoric rise of the IT sector, the likes of AMD and Autonomy who were recently sold for $7.1b to HP – do they count as engineering?
I remember attending a presentation many moons ago at Warwick University when Ken Livingstone presented his support for investment in genetic engineering and his abhorrence of the demise of manufacturing; I listened and found myself fascinated, nodding, not liking his politics but liking what he said.
Lotus have just announced a £500m five year investment plan and one that Vice Cable supports with a £10M additional regional investment and a plan to increase the workforce by 1200 staff, the majority being new Engineers – impressive stuff indeed.
So where are we? Have we successfully cast aside the misty eye and spitfire dashboard as Jaguar have, recognised that the world that we compete in is governed by macro economics and that in order to survive that innovation is de-rigour?
Is innovation de-rigour? or have we forgotten to leave a place in our society for those not so well blessed with Einstein grey matter so that they in turn can contribute to our GDP with less temporal mechanical added value tasks that are not quite as de-meaning as serving KFC?
Across at VW Wolfsburg or PSA Sandouville, the mediocrity of product pouring out smacks to me of the old BL days when the man at the end of the line could slap a Wolsley, Austin, Morris badge on the car dependent upon what was in the stores- different manufacturer for sure but the principal is still the same – show me a Passat and I’d be hard pressed to tell it wasn’t a Seat or WHY …the cash is still pouring into the Deuetchbank, but it ain’t across here is it? and of course our wonderful Mini still fills German coffers.
Is this our fault, our governments fault or our own ambivalence to what is going on around us until it’s too late? The anecdotal stories of the old Rover/BWM Management rivalry undoubtedly were one such factor in that particular marriage failure but the fact that the lads in Longbridge fought so hard for their identity makes me thinks that perhaps the fight in the soul is still there to retain identity and pride in British Engineering – but what exactly is that? Castrol R and a J Type supercharger or electrons fired around a tunnel in Basle designed by the lads in Abingdon, Culham?
I’m not being jingoistic, don’t get me wrong and I applaud the removal of cultural, commercial and myopic barriers that we have in our upbringing - I’m asking the question “Have we, here in the UK, lost the ability to engineer and add value” because that in my eyes is what that part of Engineering is all about, it’s the ability to be adding value in the manufacturing process not just, spinning money round and round and adding 10% each time.
One might say I’m a hypocritical; I’m a Management Consultant and sure I get the old jokes time and time again (and no I don’t drive a BM
) but I do acknowledge that particular critism; in my defence I would say that I am aware of what I’m saying and what I’m asking.I suppose I may have rambled a bit in my musing here and of course I have laid myself open to massive 45 (inch!!! geddit? ) shells being lobbed across at me. I don’t purport to know it all, less indeed have an answer, but to bring it back to a conclusion I would ask
1. Is our Engineering as good as it once was and why if you have an opinion do you say that?”
2. If you were a young lad of 17yrs age , being the petrol head that you are, after all you’re on this site
- where would you be putting your first steps on the career ladder and why would that be?Over to you
Edited by Carsie on Friday 4th November 22:58
Edited by Carsie on Friday 4th November 22:58
My uncles got a fully restored javelin and he's restored quite a few in the past.
Being from bradford it makes me quite proud, but them days are long gone, bradford was once a leader in the industrial age. Its a s
thole now though!
The first flat twins were invented by jowett, all aluminium aswell. Quite an achievement at the time.
Being from bradford it makes me quite proud, but them days are long gone, bradford was once a leader in the industrial age. Its a s
thole now though!The first flat twins were invented by jowett, all aluminium aswell. Quite an achievement at the time.
Skills wise I'd say the UK is on par with most other countries. It's just that it seems that everything is made everywhere else (China) or that any bright sparks we have have all buggered off to different countries.
Engineering is a very very broad term. If I could go back 12 years i'd be looking at marine engineering of some sort of degree in extracting things out of the ground.
I can't agree with your VAG/BL analogy. VAG stuff is well screwed together, well managed and makes a mountain of cash. BL was a joke.
Engineering is a very very broad term. If I could go back 12 years i'd be looking at marine engineering of some sort of degree in extracting things out of the ground.
I can't agree with your VAG/BL analogy. VAG stuff is well screwed together, well managed and makes a mountain of cash. BL was a joke.
Aren't we 5th largest economy and 3rd largest exporter of goods still? Admittedly that's not just engineering goods.
It's changed the manual labour side has definitely dropped drastically however id say there's still a huge amount of world leading expertise in the uk, more then we probably realise. I'm an engineer for Shell and we are up there for oil and gas engineering, don't know if that will continue once the north sea dries up but go on any project in the world oil, gas, cars etc there's bound to be a Brit or several involved somewhere.
I would add that I thinks it's something that needs addressed by government in terms of hands on apprenticeships. There's some good training organisations out there and apprenticeships was/is a buzzword just now but I completed a 4 year fully indentured apprenticeship and it was the best thing I ever did. Then I knuckled down after that. Without going off topic I really don't know what teenagers priorities are these days, I'm only 32 but I suspect we aren't pushing the need for younger generation heading into engineering on a skills level as we should be. Perhaps I'm wrong. Colleges and universities near me seem to have lost the 'technical' part of their name. However we still have a nuclear, oil and gas, car, chemical and steel industry on the go despite some being a shadow of their former self. There's lots of success stories out there, just not enough.
It's changed the manual labour side has definitely dropped drastically however id say there's still a huge amount of world leading expertise in the uk, more then we probably realise. I'm an engineer for Shell and we are up there for oil and gas engineering, don't know if that will continue once the north sea dries up but go on any project in the world oil, gas, cars etc there's bound to be a Brit or several involved somewhere.
I would add that I thinks it's something that needs addressed by government in terms of hands on apprenticeships. There's some good training organisations out there and apprenticeships was/is a buzzword just now but I completed a 4 year fully indentured apprenticeship and it was the best thing I ever did. Then I knuckled down after that. Without going off topic I really don't know what teenagers priorities are these days, I'm only 32 but I suspect we aren't pushing the need for younger generation heading into engineering on a skills level as we should be. Perhaps I'm wrong. Colleges and universities near me seem to have lost the 'technical' part of their name. However we still have a nuclear, oil and gas, car, chemical and steel industry on the go despite some being a shadow of their former self. There's lots of success stories out there, just not enough.
Edited by ryandoc on Friday 4th November 22:39
Edited by ryandoc on Friday 4th November 22:40
Great post OP
I think the time of mass manufacturing in the UK has gone. All outsourced to countries where cheap labour and energy rates mean we simply cannot compete.
However what we lack in production is compensated by innovation. Despite what a lot of people think, the UK produce highly educated and talented engineers.
I started working 16 years in a dusty, dangerous patternmaking workshop for a pittance, producing patterns for foundries that were dropping like flies. Through perseverance/education I pushed myself into CNC manufacturing, into aerospace and finally offshore ROV work. All within the UK.
There is plenty of industry, but it's much smaller niche companies usually serving a high tech demand that other countries simply cannot serve.
I think the time of mass manufacturing in the UK has gone. All outsourced to countries where cheap labour and energy rates mean we simply cannot compete.
However what we lack in production is compensated by innovation. Despite what a lot of people think, the UK produce highly educated and talented engineers.
I started working 16 years in a dusty, dangerous patternmaking workshop for a pittance, producing patterns for foundries that were dropping like flies. Through perseverance/education I pushed myself into CNC manufacturing, into aerospace and finally offshore ROV work. All within the UK.
There is plenty of industry, but it's much smaller niche companies usually serving a high tech demand that other countries simply cannot serve.
Carsie said:
1. Is our Engineering as good as it once was and why if you have an opinion do you say that?”
I think it is, I'm the engineering manager in the factory of an electronics firm, we lead our market on reliability, function, performance and market share, we're primarily a UK firm. Admittedly we don't lead on cost. But we are the best.I think the test would be to see how quickly our "engineering" industry could tool up to make the spitfire here in the UK again.
I think engineering is still about and thriving in niche markets (e.g. F1 & aerospace) but I'd question our ability to do things on a big scale given the need.
I think engineering is still about and thriving in niche markets (e.g. F1 & aerospace) but I'd question our ability to do things on a big scale given the need.
There's no doubt that British innovation and engineering is alive and kicking, it just doesn't gain the respect that it used to. Technology moves so fast that when something innovative comes out, the general response is 'okay, whats next?'.
The most talented engineers in the world are working in the UK and I am proud to come from an engineering background and call myself an engineer.
The most talented engineers in the world are working in the UK and I am proud to come from an engineering background and call myself an engineer.
Adam205 said:
There's no doubt that British innovation and engineering is alive and kicking, it just doesn't gain the respect that it used to. Technology moves so fast that when something innovative comes out, the general response is 'okay, whats next?'.
The most talented engineers in the world are working in the UK and I am proud to come from an engineering background and call myself an engineer.
Totally agree.. The most talented engineers in the world are working in the UK and I am proud to come from an engineering background and call myself an engineer.
windy1 said:
I think the test would be to see how quickly our "engineering" industry could tool up to make the spitfire here in the UK again.
I think engineering is still about and thriving in niche markets (e.g. F1 & aerospace) but I'd question our ability to do things on a big scale given the need.
I think we might have to a bit better than a Spitfire if we're in that situation again I think engineering is still about and thriving in niche markets (e.g. F1 & aerospace) but I'd question our ability to do things on a big scale given the need.
Seriously, just look at motorsport for examples of world class engineering know how, innovation and execution.
We still have it, no question
I'm sure we could do it on a mass scale if we had to.
Carsie said:
You bring solace to my soul 
Think of telecommunications. You'll find that, although it was the Americans that 'invented' the mobile phone, it was a few extremely talented British engineers that created the world wide infrastructure that have allowed them to become as popular as they are. More people use this technology now than have ever been affected by the creations of the greatest of British engineers, Brunel.Adam205 said:
Think of telecommunications. You'll find that, although it was the Americans that 'invented' the mobile phone, it was a few extremely talented British engineers that created the world wide infrastructure that have allowed them to become as popular as they are. More people use this technology now than have ever been affected by the creations of the greatest of British engineers, Brunel.
Internet - American, World Wide Web - Britishits a common theme.
We , as a nation, specialize in inspirational leaps. Not so good at making it pay.
ryandoc said:
This is and should be a very respected thing. I think a lot of people hear 'engineer' or 'I'm in engineering' and don't give it the respect it deserves.
windy1 said:
I think the test would be to see how quickly our "engineering" industry could tool up to make the spitfire here in the UK again.
I think engineering is still about and thriving in niche markets (e.g. F1 & aerospace) but I'd question our ability to do things on a big scale given the need.
I'd hardly call aerospace a niche market in any sense of the word - estimated at 1,330 MILLION dollars in 2005 at a time where civil aerospace spending was still reeling from post 9/11 downturn. Although the UK are never going to be able to compete directly with the US in this market we are taking an ever increasing chunk of the pie being arguably the market leader in the EU. I think engineering is still about and thriving in niche markets (e.g. F1 & aerospace) but I'd question our ability to do things on a big scale given the need.
When you actually look at some of the numbers behind engineering within the UK, the percentage of GDP that originates from manufacturing has not actually shifted by a huge amount - I read a good article a while back but I am struggling to find it. What has changed is the amount of people required to produce this output, huge leaps in computing and automation over recent decades have meant that the actual number of people employed has drastically reduced but we are still making things, and making them well, especially within aerospace. Evan Davis' programme Made in Britain was a really nice reminder that it's not all doom and gloom.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff