British Engineering - Ahh - it ain't what it used to be lad!
Discussion
davepoth said:
In lots of other countries in Europe it's quite common to see people use "Eng." or "Ing." like they would "Dr.". That's the sort of esteem engineers are held in.
Its a protected title in many countries. To call yourself an engineer you must be qualified as such. I'm sure every British engineer has had an argument with their central heating 'Engineer' over what qualifies the use of the term 
.Adam205 said:
davepoth said:
In lots of other countries in Europe it's quite common to see people use "Eng." or "Ing." like they would "Dr.". That's the sort of esteem engineers are held in.
Its a protected title in many countries. To call yourself an engineer you must be qualified as such. I'm sure every British engineer has had an argument with their central heating 'Engineer' over what qualifies the use of the term .
It's a very valid point Meldonte makes.
I guess in my musings I was thinking aloud about a number of different issues leading from my opening question.
Culture- Where in society does an Engineer fit?.
GDP- What contribution does an Engineer make?
And of course from a more altruistic position, where in society do we place the value of an Engineer?
Perhaps it boils down for me,to something more deep seated, that qualifies me to vocalise my thoughts.
My Grandfather was a founder member of the Institute Of Electro Mechanical Engineers, he worked in Harland and Wolf in Belfast and had Marconi as a friend- Oh yes...I've got lots of stories
I'm politically aware, I believe, commercially astute and have a care and compassion that believes that we in the UK should be doing perhaps better than we are.
Our Engineering capital and by that I mean our intellectual capital, is superb, and yet the culture of the UK means that we respect the Accountants, the one's that count the goals after the job is done.
Where on earth has this pseudo mantle come from? One plus one has always added to two,from the Egyptian's times till today, yet the ability to devise a mechanism to prevent etc etc.
Where in this modern world do we elevate one plus one, above creativity, imagination, flair, initiative and application?
Mmnnn.. more thoughts tumbling out!
I guess in my musings I was thinking aloud about a number of different issues leading from my opening question.
Culture- Where in society does an Engineer fit?.
GDP- What contribution does an Engineer make?
And of course from a more altruistic position, where in society do we place the value of an Engineer?
Perhaps it boils down for me,to something more deep seated, that qualifies me to vocalise my thoughts.
My Grandfather was a founder member of the Institute Of Electro Mechanical Engineers, he worked in Harland and Wolf in Belfast and had Marconi as a friend- Oh yes...I've got lots of stories
I'm politically aware, I believe, commercially astute and have a care and compassion that believes that we in the UK should be doing perhaps better than we are.
Our Engineering capital and by that I mean our intellectual capital, is superb, and yet the culture of the UK means that we respect the Accountants, the one's that count the goals after the job is done.
Where on earth has this pseudo mantle come from? One plus one has always added to two,from the Egyptian's times till today, yet the ability to devise a mechanism to prevent etc etc.
Where in this modern world do we elevate one plus one, above creativity, imagination, flair, initiative and application?
Mmnnn.. more thoughts tumbling out!
I'm a master of mechanical engineering, although what with the woeful salaries and status that proper engineers hold in the UK, I buggered off elsewhere and these days am a "manager" who pays engineers to do engineering stuff for me instead.
Sad really as I much prefer rolling up my sleeves and figuring out how something works, or how best to make it work rather than having to pay someone to tell me (invariably very badly) how it works.
Sad really as I much prefer rolling up my sleeves and figuring out how something works, or how best to make it work rather than having to pay someone to tell me (invariably very badly) how it works.
My dad designed and built a full scale model of tower bridge in his breaks when he used to work as a waterjet engineer.
I do think Britain is still one of the most innovative countries out there in regards to engineering, but I think that is potentially a bonus of the make do and mend generation and their offspring.
A fair proportion of my peers wouldn't know which end of the hammer to hold, and I've confuddled friends who've considered themselves technically competant by asking for a left handed screwdriver...
On the flip side me and my new business partner are going to start producing Carbon Fibre car parts, we've seen the current range of moulding methods and we went: Nah, we can build something better. So we are.
I do still wonder where we will stand in the global engineering innovation market in 10 - 15 even 20 years from now.
I do think Britain is still one of the most innovative countries out there in regards to engineering, but I think that is potentially a bonus of the make do and mend generation and their offspring.
A fair proportion of my peers wouldn't know which end of the hammer to hold, and I've confuddled friends who've considered themselves technically competant by asking for a left handed screwdriver...
On the flip side me and my new business partner are going to start producing Carbon Fibre car parts, we've seen the current range of moulding methods and we went: Nah, we can build something better. So we are.
I do still wonder where we will stand in the global engineering innovation market in 10 - 15 even 20 years from now.
dvs_dave said:
I'm a master of mechanical engineering, although what with the woeful salaries and status that proper engineers hold in the UK, I buggered off elsewhere and these days am a "manager" who pays engineers to do engineering stuff for me instead.
.
Pretty much seems to be the career path that most companies line up for graduates these days (I will graduate in June with a BEng (Hons.) in Computer and Electronic Systems, which is Electrical and Electronic Engineering and Computer Science).
dvs_dave said:
I'm a master of mechanical engineering, although what with the woeful salaries and status that proper engineers hold in the UK, I buggered off elsewhere and these days am a "manager" who pays engineers to do engineering stuff for me instead.
Sad really as I much prefer rolling up my sleeves and figuring out how something works, or how best to make it work rather than having to pay someone to tell me (invariably very badly) how it works.
This is a sad fact of an engineer. I am qualified as a metallurgist (b eng.) but rarely use those skills now as i have become a 'manager' as this was the only real way to earn money in engineering in the UK. I do miss the playing around with slurries, gating systems, times, temps within our foundry -but i am proud to say we are still exporting cast product to India, China, Mexico, Brazil from the UK.Sad really as I much prefer rolling up my sleeves and figuring out how something works, or how best to make it work rather than having to pay someone to tell me (invariably very badly) how it works.
I think as time has drifted on, 'engineers' wages will increase. Finding decently qualified foundry engineers is becoming extremely difficult for me at the moment....... The skills just don't exist anymore....
Mike
16v stretch said:
On the flip side me and my new business partner are going to start producing Carbon Fibre car parts, we've seen the current range of moulding methods and we went: Nah, we can build something better. So we are.
Interested to see this. When you've secured the patent, could you post up some details?The point several of you make about the lacking wages not being sufficient to retain our best engineering talent is valid to people further along in their careers, but not strictly true for people in the early stages of their careers.
Graduate starting salaries for Engineers are actually very good in this country compared to other professions, including 'qualified' doctors and lawyers in their initial years of on the job training. My engineering chums and I earn a fair chunk more than our peers at this stage, yet there is still a huge shortage of decent graduates coming through the system even though there are many more applications to the number of places available.
I think most would be surprised to find the number of quality applications would struggle to fill the number of positions available for graduate engineers. This is reflected in most companies extendending their deadline for graduate applications later and later into the year than initially planned.
I believe this simply to be due to a lack of education, a lack of core skills within STEM subjects at a younger age and a lack of engineering awareness at schools - secondary pupils don't learn 'engineering' at school, but why the hell not? These skills are vital to our economy and something we should be proud of. There has recently been a push to counter this with various extra-curricular schemes but until we introduce an 'Engineering' A-Level or something I don't think we are going to see the required changes.
To contribute to the wider debate, I intend to stay within engineering in the UK until the poor salary progression leaves me jaded and then I will probably look to move abroad, the starting salary for graduate aerospace engineers at NASA is 76,000 dollars. I would rather stay in the UK, but I worked hard for my qualifications and if another country values them higher than we do here in the UK, solely due to a poor national perception of the profession at home I don't feel any particular duty to stay.
Graduate starting salaries for Engineers are actually very good in this country compared to other professions, including 'qualified' doctors and lawyers in their initial years of on the job training. My engineering chums and I earn a fair chunk more than our peers at this stage, yet there is still a huge shortage of decent graduates coming through the system even though there are many more applications to the number of places available.
I think most would be surprised to find the number of quality applications would struggle to fill the number of positions available for graduate engineers. This is reflected in most companies extendending their deadline for graduate applications later and later into the year than initially planned.
I believe this simply to be due to a lack of education, a lack of core skills within STEM subjects at a younger age and a lack of engineering awareness at schools - secondary pupils don't learn 'engineering' at school, but why the hell not? These skills are vital to our economy and something we should be proud of. There has recently been a push to counter this with various extra-curricular schemes but until we introduce an 'Engineering' A-Level or something I don't think we are going to see the required changes.
To contribute to the wider debate, I intend to stay within engineering in the UK until the poor salary progression leaves me jaded and then I will probably look to move abroad, the starting salary for graduate aerospace engineers at NASA is 76,000 dollars. I would rather stay in the UK, but I worked hard for my qualifications and if another country values them higher than we do here in the UK, solely due to a poor national perception of the profession at home I don't feel any particular duty to stay.
Kiltox said:
What's the starting salary for graduate aerospace engineers in the UK ?
Costs a fair bit more to live in the US doesn't it? I don't expect the salary here to be £47,500 however there might not be as much difference in real terms.
To be fair you do have a valid point about living costs in the US. Average salary for an Engineering grad in the UK I am led to believe is 25,000, Aerospace 28,000. This includes golden hello's etc. It's not bad at all compared to most graduate professions but the salary progression that you see with other respected professions just is not there. Costs a fair bit more to live in the US doesn't it? I don't expect the salary here to be £47,500 however there might not be as much difference in real terms.
Another point is we are losing a fair amount of the more savvy top dogs out of University to the banks. A huge proportion of Oxbridge Engineering grads go to work in the city and one of the best guys on my course now works as a technologist for a leading unnamed investment bank. It's something I'd considered but ruled out as when you weigh up the increased salary against cost of living in the city - plus the fact the work I'd end up doing would have be boring a hole through my skull within weeks I decided to stick to what I know, and I am not regretting it so far.
Average salary may be £28,000 however I doubt NASA are paying the average salary in the US either.
I do agree with the banking thing - I was speaking to a member of HR staff from the investment arm of a large banking group and she said that they are actively seeking engineering graduates for the type of work that they do due to the analytical qualities that engineers hold.
I do agree with the banking thing - I was speaking to a member of HR staff from the investment arm of a large banking group and she said that they are actively seeking engineering graduates for the type of work that they do due to the analytical qualities that engineers hold.
Meldonte said:
The point several of you make about the lacking wages not being sufficient to retain our best engineering talent is valid to people further along in their careers, but not strictly true for people in the early stages of their careers.
Graduate starting salaries for Engineers are actually very good in this country compared to other professions, including 'qualified' doctors and lawyers in their initial years of on the job training. My engineering chums and I earn a fair chunk more than our peers at this stage, yet there is still a huge shortage of decent graduates coming through the system and although there are many more applications to the number of places available.
I think most would be surprised to find the number of quality applications would struggle to fill the number of positions available for graduate engineers. This is reflected in most companies extendending their deadline for graduate applications later and later into the year than initially planned.
Nothing wrong with any of this, it is the 'market' at work. Graduate starting salaries for Engineers are actually very good in this country compared to other professions, including 'qualified' doctors and lawyers in their initial years of on the job training. My engineering chums and I earn a fair chunk more than our peers at this stage, yet there is still a huge shortage of decent graduates coming through the system and although there are many more applications to the number of places available.
I think most would be surprised to find the number of quality applications would struggle to fill the number of positions available for graduate engineers. This is reflected in most companies extendending their deadline for graduate applications later and later into the year than initially planned.
Meldonte said:
I believe this simply to be due to a lack of education, a lack of core skills within STEM subjects at a younger age and a lack of engineering awareness at schools - secondary pupils don't learn 'engineering' at school, but why the hell not? These skills are vital to our economy and something we should be proud of. There has recently been a push to counter this with various extra-curricular schemes but until we introduce an 'Engineering' A-Level or something I don't think we are going to see the required changes.
You don't need an 'Engineering' A level. You need Maths & Physics and a youth having been spent playing with meccano, electronic sets, taking your bike to pieces and learning BASIC on a computer. In my opinion, the reason people don't enter engineering is because the pay isn't that great. Hoards of graduates leave well respected Universities with Engineering Degrees every year with almost limitless potential to boost the economic fortunes of the UK but instead enter more financially lucrative professions based on their earning potential at 30, 40 & 50....Meldonte said:
To contribute to the wider debate, I intend to stay within engineering in the UK until the poor salary progression leaves me jaded and then I will probably look to move abroad, the starting salary for graduate aerospace engineers at NASA is 76,000 dollars. I would rather stay in the UK, but I worked hard for my qualifications and if another country values them higher than we do here in the UK, solely due to a poor national perception of the profession at home I don't feel any particular duty to stay.
I think you have illustrated the point as to why people aren't entering Engineering. It's just that many people figure this out (or their careers Master guides them) before they apply to University.Your example about NASA probably isn't the greatest as they are a niche organisation looking for the very top people in the world. They recruit from the top of the class at MIT and only if they absolutely had to would they then look at the equivalent of Imperial, Cambridge or Oxford graduates. But a US engineering graduate might be earning $60K within a few years of graduation which buys a pretty good lifestyle in the USA.
Carsie said:
2. If you were a young lad of 17yrs age , being the petrol head that you are, after all you’re on this site 
- where would you be putting your first steps on the career ladder and why would that be?
Read it all and you raise some interesting points - I don't believe for a second that British engineering is dead. British manufacturing has been on its way down, but every man and his dog seems to come to us for engineering consultancy.. - where would you be putting your first steps on the career ladder and why would that be?In reply to the above question, well, it's pretty relevant to me! I'm a 19-year-old second-year student in Automotive Engineering, so it should be quite apparent where my first career steps will take me - either towards Jaguar-Land Rover, Aston Martin across the road, Lotus as they expand, or any number of F1 teams based here. I speak decent German so could happily bugger off to Bosch or VAG, but frankly I'd rather stay here and keep us going.
Why am I doing it? I never really considered anything else. It suits my brain and I've always, always loved everything about cars, and whatever people say we in this country are bloody good at them too.
As for the money, almost every "real" engineer in the land knows they're not being paid anywhere near enough, depending on where you go starting salary in my sector is around £30k and it doesn't step a huge amount higher. Nobody is going to come into this industry being led by lucrative salaries, which is perhaps not helping the situation where most OEMs are saying they're crying out for engineers, but it doesn't bother me. Perhaps does explain why there are so many accountancy and economics students in the world right now, but c'est la vie.
Things look good for the British automotive industry at the moment, the old players are hitting harder than ever - I see more XFs than similarly aged 5ers or E-Classes now, which is simply awesome - and there are promising new shed-built start-ups appearing all the time. But even if the manufacturing here dies out completely, the engineering know-how we have here will keep us busy for a long time yet.
Kiltox said:
JLR have quite a big graduate recruitment drive at the moment 
- I've applied for Product Development (Electrical) with them for 2012 entry.
Good lad - I know there is something like 2000% over-application for them, but that's not gonna stop me either. Just flash your PH card and you'll be straight in - I've applied for Product Development (Electrical) with them for 2012 entry.Adam205 said:
16v stretch said:
On the flip side me and my new business partner are going to start producing Carbon Fibre car parts, we've seen the current range of moulding methods and we went: Nah, we can build something better. So we are.
Interested to see this. When you've secured the patent, could you post up some details?I was fortunate enough to go on a factory tour at JCB in Rocester and it re-affirmed my faith in the british engineering industry. In JCB we have an entirely British, family owned business producing world class machines and selling them world wide. The endeavour to produce every component themselves, from transmissions to the cab and switchgear- they are not just an assembly line. They feed sheets of 25mm steel into their factory and drive completed world class machines out the other end.
They also lead the world with innovation in construction and agricultural machines- The JCB Fastrac, a 20 year old design with full suspension, outboard disc brakes and up to 60mph top speed, is still the only draught tractor that can legally exceed 20mph on British roads.
JCB Fastrac
JCB Loadall
We can still do it. Our biggest weakness with the car industry is our lack of pride in our own products. Most people would run a mile if you mentioned driving a Rover yet take great pride in the 'german engineering' in their VW or Audi. Without the support of our own population how can we expect the rest of the world to buy our cars?
They also lead the world with innovation in construction and agricultural machines- The JCB Fastrac, a 20 year old design with full suspension, outboard disc brakes and up to 60mph top speed, is still the only draught tractor that can legally exceed 20mph on British roads.
JCB Fastrac
JCB Loadall
We can still do it. Our biggest weakness with the car industry is our lack of pride in our own products. Most people would run a mile if you mentioned driving a Rover yet take great pride in the 'german engineering' in their VW or Audi. Without the support of our own population how can we expect the rest of the world to buy our cars?
king huge - I was on a job at a substation near there whilst on placement in the summer.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff