British Engineering - Ahh - it ain't what it used to be lad!

[Starfighter]

Part of the problem is the public perception of Engineering. They see it plastered over vans containing technicians and tradesmen when the vast, vast majority are not Engineers at all.

The term should be reserved as it is for Doctors and other professions in this country and Engineer is in countries such as Germany. Technicians and tradesmen should be respected and valued for their particular skill sets and not confused with professional Engineers.

J.Hall B.Eng(hons),MCQI

[Kiltox]

Starfighter said:

Part of the problem is the public perception of Engineering. They see it plastered over vans containing technicians and tradesmen when the vast, vast majority are not Engineers at all.

The term should be reserved as it is for Doctors and other professions in this country and Engineer is in countries such as Germany. Technicians and tradesmen should be respected and valued for their particular skill sets and not confused with professional Engineers.

J.Hall B.Eng(hons),MCQI

There's currently a petition on the Government petitions thing about this - I'll link to it later (can't access Facebook at work, where a mate posted the link)

[ffc]

dvs_dave said:

I'm a master of mechanical engineering, although what with the woeful salaries and status that proper engineers hold in the UK, I buggered off elsewhere and these days am a "manager" who pays engineers to do engineering stuff for me instead.

Sad really as I much prefer rolling up my sleeves and figuring out how something works, or how best to make it work rather than having to pay someone to tell me (invariably very badly) how it works.

This is a sad fact of British industry as a whole. Valuing the manager more than the person actually doing the work. It results in the most skilled workers moving into management for the money and thus the business loses its most skilful workers to positions of authority with little, no or negative value. Until we learn to value the skills of individual contributors this will remain the case

[McSam]

I couldnt agree more as regards the use of "engineer". The state of it now is almost exactly the same, as Starfighter says, as anyone in any medical profession - nurses, carers, the lot - being able to use the title "Doctor". They just aren't. And the guy who comes to fix your heating is not an engineer, either. That's what the word "technician" is for. If you can write BEng or MEng or an equivalent after your name, then we'll talk about being an engineer...

16v stretch said:

Adam205 said:

16v stretch said:

On the flip side me and my new business partner are going to start producing Carbon Fibre car parts, we've seen the current range of moulding methods and we went: Nah, we can build something better. So we are.

Interested to see this. When you've secured the patent, could you post up some details?

Gladly! hopefully we'll have a working prototype before the new year to see if it's a feasable production method. It will certainly allow us to do rapid turn-around, especially as on one car club they were quoted a lead time of 3 months to produce carbon fibre wings! Potentially we'd be looking at a lead time from mould to a finalised product in about a day and a half.

Top stuff

[saaby93]

Starfighter said:

B.Eng(hons),MCQI

Is the first earned, the second paid for?

[busta]

ffc said:

This is a sad fact of British industry as a whole. Valuing the manager more than the person actually doing the work. It results in the most skilled workers moving into management for the money and thus the business loses its most skilful workers to positions of authority with little, no or negative value. Until we learn to value the skills of individual contributors this will remain the case

We have a system of promotion to a position of incompetence- as soon as you get good at something, you are rewarded by promotion to doing something new, until you end up doing something you're not any good at.

[Lotus Notes]

I thnk that there are failings not only in the UK, but Europe on a whole, to stimulate a generation of Engineers.

Primarily, companies are employing the wrong type of engineering graduate. If I listen to new intakes, they all talk about becoming management and earning more money.

Ideally, we need to employ engineers who want to stay engineers. We need to reach out less to the Oxbridge graduates and employ talented individuals from diverse backgrounds who can inovate and embrace old and new technology.

HR organisations continuously fail to understand what makes an engineer tick, plan their career and motivate accordingly. We also need to protect engineers from the 'hum drum' of business politics and facilitate them to complete their work to the highest quality.

All IMHO of course.

[GavinPearson]

McSam said:

I couldnt agree more as regards the use of "engineer". The state of it now is almost exactly the same, as Starfighter says, as anyone in any medical profession - nurses, carers, the lot - being able to use the title "Doctor". They just aren't. And the guy who comes to fix your heating is not an engineer, either. That's what the word "technician" is for. If you can write BEng or MEng or an equivalent after your name, then we'll talk about being an engineer...

The guy who comes to fix your heating probably earns more than you though.

Just remember that experience counts for a great deal - and there are a number of seriously clever people still in the industry who got taken on as apprentices who don't have degrees but have a serious amount of experience - enough to easily academically justify a CEng. When they say 'degree or equivalent' in a job ad they're referring to these people.

[Meldonte]

GavinPearson said:

he guy who comes to fix your heating probably earns more than you though.

Just remember that experience counts for a great deal - and there are a number of seriously clever people still in the industry who got taken on as apprentices who don't have degrees but have a serious amount of experience - enough to easily academically justify a CEng. When they say 'degree or equivalent' in a job ad they're referring to these people.

I absolutely agree with this point - but that doesn't mean I believe they should be called Engineers. I have a friend who's father is a Paediatric Perfusionist, his job is highly skilled, requires a vast wealth of technical expertise and huge amounts of training and experience - he saves lives daily without even thinking about it. His contribution is arguably of equal or more importance and difficulty than a surgeon or doctor but he is not one and nor would he want to be called one.

No one is saying that Technicians are not highly skilled in certain industries and that they are surplus to requirements (or they shouldn't be saying that) but that doesn't mean they should be able to confuse matters by calling themselves something they are not professionally/academically trained in even if they are more than capable of doing some jobs that an Engineer might.

[Meldonte]

Kiltox said:

JLR have quite a big graduate recruitment drive at the moment - I've applied for Product Development (Electrical) with them for 2012 entry.

I have a few mates who have just started on the electrical product development scheme this year. The first few weeks seem to be a right laugh and there are definitely decent opporunities within a firm that is set for growth (massively bolstered by Evoque sales as Jaguar continues to loose money..)

I don't think you will regret your decision in the slightest

[McSam]

GavinPearson said:

he guy who comes to fix your heating probably earns more than you though.

Just remember that experience counts for a great deal - and there are a number of seriously clever people still in the industry who got taken on as apprentices who don't have degrees but have a serious amount of experience - enough to easily academically justify a CEng. When they say 'degree or equivalent' in a job ad they're referring to these people.

Yep, I expect he does, which is also kind of the point.

I definitely agree that experience is very important, though - that's why I said BEng or MEng or equivalent. Basically my meaning was that unless you are a highly qualified/accomplished engineer, as opposed to someone who comes and fixes or works with things that "real" engineers have designed, then you shouldn't be using the moniker. There are definitely plenty of people worthy of the name who don't have degrees!


(Re electrical engineering and the like with JLR, pretty much everyone seems to be crying out for electric guys now, since the degree is reputed to be one of the hardest around!)

[mattnunn]

I'm a Ceng, Meng, all this nonsense about respect for job titles etc... Is baloney. Jenson button is a driver, the man who delivers my dhl is a driver, people are able to differentiate.

The uk has some world leading academic and industrial engineers and scientists, i've worked all over the world, i know.

This country has fallen short due to

a) succesive governments lack of support to industry

b) short term profit mentality within mostly usa led coporations, that means long term goals are simply not established

c) companies involved in venture capatilsim being allowed to effectively bully startups into selling out far too soon

[RV8]

McSam said:

GavinPearson said:

he guy who comes to fix your heating probably earns more than you though.

Just remember that experience counts for a great deal - and there are a number of seriously clever people still in the industry who got taken on as apprentices who don't have degrees but have a serious amount of experience - enough to easily academically justify a CEng. When they say 'degree or equivalent' in a job ad they're referring to these people.

Yep, I expect he does, which is also kind of the point.

I definitely agree that experience is very important, though - that's why I said BEng or MEng or equivalent. Basically my meaning was that unless you are a highly qualified/accomplished engineer, as opposed to someone who comes and fixes or works with things that "real" engineers have designed, then you shouldn't be using the moniker. There are definitely plenty of people worthy of the name who don't have degrees!


(Re electrical engineering and the like with JLR, pretty much everyone seems to be crying out for electric guys now, since the degree is reputed to be one of the hardest around!)

I agree to a point that a qualification means that a candidate for any given industry has reached a qualified standard, but hands on experience is where the learning actually begins and the opportunity to apply some of the basics the degree has given you. It takes a few years to get a qualification whereas I always think a wealth of experience gained over many years working in an industry is when you can confidently say you are qualified to do something.

I do not work in engineering but I do have a fascination with it, I work in the creative industry where many people are either academic or artistic (in the case of some art directors and editors they possess neither qualities in great amounts) so the reason I am interested in engineering is that I believe it is a great balance of both academic and creative or practical ability and it is marvelous to see these two elements gel together and allow engineering achievements, whether they be innovative, save energy or reduce wear and extend a components lifespan there is a genuine reason to be impressed with the work irrespective of where it has been developed. Though I will admit to a genuine feeling of pride when I know something clever is done in this country as apposed to, say, the US, as despite the UK's smaller size and fewer candidates to pick from we can still compete and innovate to a high standard while working within the restrictions that are imposed on and inherited by the industry in general.

[anonymous-user]

I do wonder if modern technology itself is partially responsible for the decline in what i would call "natural" enigneers? When i was young (and still in fact) i would take apart everything i could get my hands on. Things were bigger, less complicated (and a lot less electronic!) in those days, and i soon learnt to work out how others had engineered things and establish how good a solution that might have been. I see a lot of graduates these days (we always interview decent grads) who are very smart but really have no practical knowledge/skills or understanding on how you would actually make something work. They could design it & simulate it, but ask then to make it, or to organsise making it, and they have no idea!

Modern electronic devices are really pretty inscrutable, most of the really clever stuff being hidden in code and ASIC's etc.

Britian still leads the world in the R&D of new technologies, especially automotive and motorsport, but in electronics (ARM etc) as well, we just are not longer the manufacturing hub of the world ;-(

[anonymous-user]

Meldonte said:

Kiltox said:

JLR have quite a big graduate recruitment drive at the moment - I've applied for Product Development (Electrical) with them for 2012 entry.

I have a few mates who have just started on the electrical product development scheme this year. The first few weeks seem to be a right laugh and there are definitely decent opporunities within a firm that is set for growth (massively bolstered by Evoque sales as Jaguar continues to loose money..)

I don't think you will regret your decision in the slightest

Good luck with this, It will be a steep (but fun!) learning experience. (as currently even JLR can't make all the electrical stuff work at once in a Disco4........... ;-)

[MarJay]

I'd just like to say that the UK is world reknowned for its engineering consultancies. Be that Mechanical, electrical, electronic, civil, broadcast, software or whatever... We're good at it and a lot of people around the world trust it.

[R300will]

The brits tend to be the brains behind these things the chinese/cheaper countries do the grunt work.

[mattnunn]

I'm sceptical about apprenticeship schemes, i consult/contract/freelance tosome very big companys who seem to be misusing the apprentices as a form of cheap labour, they don't get the rouinded education and experience you need to be agile and useful oin the wioder market place. my advice to anyone capable of doing a levels would be to do them and go to uni and work hard to get a decent degree, it will pay dividends.

[McSam]

mattnunn said:

I'm a Ceng, Meng, all this nonsense about respect for job titles etc... Is baloney. Jenson button is a driver, the man who delivers my dhl is a driver, people are able to differentiate

I'm not so sure. A worrying percentage of people think that automotive engineer = mechanic, because the term "engineer" is applied to far too bloody much these days..

RV8, I definitely agree with you as regards the worth of experience, even a flawless degree is simply no match for being able to do the job itself well in the real environment - nor does it necessarily mean you will be able to! I think it'd be fair to say that chartership is the real measure of a useful engineer.

[Starfighter]

saaby93 said:

Starfighter said:

B.Eng(hons),MCQI

Is the first earned, the second paid for?

First earned - 3 years at university plus a year in industry (where I learned more).
Second earned and paid for, as with all of the other chartered intitutes. Annual membership subscription (tax deductable) qualifying critera included systems auditor training and a post graduate Diploma in Management Studies.