British Engineering - Ahh - it ain't what it used to be lad!
Discussion
Lots of good points being made in this thread.
I am frustrated by the dilution of the job title 'engineer' to cover many people who really should be called technicians. Or something else altogether.
I am proud to be an engineer in the UK because I work in an industry where the UK is very much leading the way. In fact there are several F1 teams looking to move closer to the heart of the 'motorsport valley' (e.g. Team Norfolk) to get closer to all the suppliers and engineering network available.
I found a real apathy towards maths/science at school, which is being address by various schemes AFAIK. The prospect of studying maths, physics and chemistry at A-Level to many seemed horrifying, I wonder if that is still the case. Lots of friends went for 'softer' subjects like Business Studies, Economics, etc. It doesn't help that engineering degrees are probably only behind medicine in terms of workload. Many admitted that they chose their subjects either not knowing what they wanted to do, or just because they were the easy option. And I expect they are now earning more than I am!
There also seems to be a real problem in finding quality graduates. My company has been recruiting heavily these last few months, and I've seen first hand just how poor some of the applicants are, yet they can rightfully call themselves an engineering graduate in the same way I can. Not to suggest I how somehow better.
I am frustrated by the dilution of the job title 'engineer' to cover many people who really should be called technicians. Or something else altogether.
I am proud to be an engineer in the UK because I work in an industry where the UK is very much leading the way. In fact there are several F1 teams looking to move closer to the heart of the 'motorsport valley' (e.g. Team Norfolk) to get closer to all the suppliers and engineering network available.
I found a real apathy towards maths/science at school, which is being address by various schemes AFAIK. The prospect of studying maths, physics and chemistry at A-Level to many seemed horrifying, I wonder if that is still the case. Lots of friends went for 'softer' subjects like Business Studies, Economics, etc. It doesn't help that engineering degrees are probably only behind medicine in terms of workload. Many admitted that they chose their subjects either not knowing what they wanted to do, or just because they were the easy option. And I expect they are now earning more than I am!
There also seems to be a real problem in finding quality graduates. My company has been recruiting heavily these last few months, and I've seen first hand just how poor some of the applicants are, yet they can rightfully call themselves an engineering graduate in the same way I can. Not to suggest I how somehow better.
RenesisEvo said:
There also seems to be a real problem in finding quality graduates. My company has been recruiting heavily these last few months, and I've seen first hand just how poor some of the applicants are, yet they can rightfully call themselves an engineering graduate in the same way I can. Not to suggest I how somehow better.
Perhaps, i am contradicting myself, but personally i found it quite difficult moving from studies into industry. I probably was no use to my first employer for 18 months as i was too 'green'. Now i am on the flip side of the coin with 16 years experience, and some graduates i have come across on our companies graduate scheme are useless. They have such high opinions of themselves, that they consider they don't need practical experience to progress and elevate straight to a managerial position. The best graduates are those that can get stuck in, communicate effectively and willing to learn the basics.This is all within manufacturing and may not necessarily apply in a design or alternative role.
Mike
mike9009 said:
Perhaps, i am contradicting myself, but personally i found it quite difficult moving from studies into industry. I probably was no use to my first employer for 18 months as i was too 'green'. Now i am on the flip side of the coin with 16 years experience, and some graduates i have come across on our companies graduate scheme are useless. They have such high opinions of themselves, that they consider they don't need practical experience to progress and elevate straight to a managerial position. The best graduates are those that can get stuck in, communicate effectively and willing to learn the basics.
This is all within manufacturing and may not necessarily apply in a design or alternative role.
Mike
That is why the best engineering courses are those that offer placement years. The problem is that you have to start climbing the ladder at quite a young age to a) get onto those courses and b) get the good placements.This is all within manufacturing and may not necessarily apply in a design or alternative role.
Mike
Adam205 said:
That is why the best engineering courses are those that offer placement years. The problem is that you have to start climbing the ladder at quite a young age to a) get onto those courses and b) get the good placements.
Totally agree, my course was a straight three years and with hindsight it was a mistake not going for a year out.Mike
RenesisEvo said:
I found a real apathy towards maths/science at school, which is being address by various schemes AFAIK. The prospect of studying maths, physics and chemistry at A-Level to many seemed horrifying, I wonder if that is still the case. Lots of friends went for 'softer' subjects like Business Studies, Economics, etc. It doesn't help that engineering degrees are probably only behind medicine in terms of workload. Many admitted that they chose their subjects either not knowing what they wanted to do, or just because they were the easy option. And I expect they are now earning more than I am!
Having recently got out of even a decent private school, knowing plenty of people from all over at my and other universities, and with a med student for a girlfriend, I can tell you this is still absolutely correct today. The general reaction to doing maths at A-level would be "why would you want to try and do that?", whereas to an engineering degree it's "bloody hell, I bet you don't get many lie-ins". Probably about 50% of my school year took degrees with absolutely no aim in mind, and despite a very high percentage of As and A*s, most are on courses way below their ability.Placements in engineering degrees are king - with a good one, you'll probably get a job straight away with the same company, but if not you'd be looking at a 90% chance if you're from a decent university. Without one, you're going to be in big trouble, for exactly the reasons others have mentioned - pure academics are too "green" and need too much work to make useful to a company, and plus, who's to say they can function in industry at all?
It's only related by going off on a general higher-education based tangent, but my housemate works at his dad's accountancy firm in the holidays and has done for a few years. He's had literally no training or education in it, just practical experience in "spare" time, and he's on the Aeronautical Engineering course here - yet his old man says that if he gets an accountancy graduate in, they're next to useless and can't actually do anything! Too many reckon that a degree teaches you all you need to know, but it becomes more and more apparent that it's a base, an understanding background, on which you can actually then learn when you're in industry.
Edited by McSam on Monday 7th November 09:38
McSam said:
Too many reckon that a degree teaches you all you need to know, but it becomes more and more apparent that it's a base, an understanding background, on which you can actually then learn when you're in industry.
Very well said.I also agree that in engineering a placement year is vital. All of those I knew who did a placement got a job pretty quickly (except one, but eventually went back to the company that he spent the placement and several summers with), despite graduating at the zenith (nadir?) of the recession.
RenesisEvo said:
I haven't, because it's more than twice last years! I nearly fell out my chair when I got the email! Still weighing up the value of paying it, not too bothered about doing CEng just yet.
Great, I'm sure it's gonna be fantastic when I get round to start paying it in 2015, then.. 
Adam205 said:
There's no doubt that British innovation and engineering is alive and kicking, it just doesn't gain the respect that it used to. Technology moves so fast that when something innovative comes out, the general response is 'okay, whats next?'.
The most talented engineers in the world are working in the UK and I am proud to come from an engineering background and call myself an engineer.
Sorry, you're all of 20 years old and you feel you're in a position to judge the 'most talented engineers'.The most talented engineers in the world are working in the UK and I am proud to come from an engineering background and call myself an engineer.
The most talented engineers in the UK typically leave and go elsewhere where they're appreciated. Germany, Australia , America etc. The lack of appreciation has very little to do with 'technology moving fast' (
)- what an absurd concept. Witness Germany and how engineers are appreciated there- their 'technology moves just as fast'.I've come across the best of British engineers in Michigan -nearly always high up directing consultancies or design departments at OEMs. This is common- especially considering the relatively small sample size amongst American engineers there. The ones who can't tend to stay behind citing reasons of how it's not worth leaving the UK. So sweet as your patriotism is- swelling patriotism in others, it doesn't help the cause one iota.
Marquis Rex said:
Sorry, you're all of 20 years old and you feel you're in a position to judge the 'most talented engineers'.
The most talented engineers in the UK typically leave and go elsewhere where they're appreciated. Germany, Australia , America etc. The lack of appreciation has very little to do with 'technology moving fast' ()- what an absurd concept. Witness Germany and how engineers are appreciated there- their 'technology moves just as fast'.
I've come across the best of British engineers in Michigan -nearly always high up directing consultancies or design departments at OEMs. This is common- especially considering the relatively small sample size amongst American engineers there. The ones who can't tend to stay behind citing reasons of how it's not worth leaving the UK. So sweet as your patriotism is- swelling patriotism in others, it doesn't help the cause one iota.
It really depends on an individuals motivation for being within an engineering discipline. Some British engineers will chase salaries which do seem to be higher in other countries (at least within the investment foundry sector, but I suspect other sectors as well, judging by your post). Other engineers (and I include myself) are in engineering because they enjoy it. I love my job for the challenges and 'small' breakthroughs you can directly make to a business. I could probably work anywhere in the world (and have done on short terms projects in Mexico, India and the US - missionary work! The most talented engineers in the UK typically leave and go elsewhere where they're appreciated. Germany, Australia , America etc. The lack of appreciation has very little to do with 'technology moving fast' (
)- what an absurd concept. Witness Germany and how engineers are appreciated there- their 'technology moves just as fast'.I've come across the best of British engineers in Michigan -nearly always high up directing consultancies or design departments at OEMs. This is common- especially considering the relatively small sample size amongst American engineers there. The ones who can't tend to stay behind citing reasons of how it's not worth leaving the UK. So sweet as your patriotism is- swelling patriotism in others, it doesn't help the cause one iota.
) but I value other things in life (friends, family, a pub, the BBC etc., etc...) over having a massive salary. Sorry if I have misinterpreted your post, but salary is not one of my main motivations in my job.
Mike
mike9009 said:
It really depends on an individuals motivation for being within an engineering discipline. Some British engineers will chase salaries which do seem to be higher in other countries (at least within the investment foundry sector, but I suspect other sectors as well, judging by your post). Other engineers (and I include myself) are in engineering because they enjoy it. I love my job for the challenges and 'small' breakthroughs you can directly make to a business. I could probably work anywhere in the world (and have done on short terms projects in Mexico, India and the US - missionary work! ) but I value other things in life (friends, family, a pub, the BBC etc., etc...) over having a massive salary.
Sorry if I have misinterpreted your post, but salary is not one of my main motivations in my job.
Mike
It's not only the salaries but also the lack of any kind of respect or recognition in the UK. Mechnicals, panel beaters and plumbers call themselves and consider themselves engineers and if a degreeded and educated engineer object- he's called a snob and ridiculed. Skilled technicians and blue collar workers are not allowed to call themselves engineers in Germany, America or any other part of the world for that matter. ) but I value other things in life (friends, family, a pub, the BBC etc., etc...) over having a massive salary. Sorry if I have misinterpreted your post, but salary is not one of my main motivations in my job.
Mike
Marquis Rex said:
It's not only the salaries but also the lack of any kind of respect or recognition in the UK. Mechnicals, panel beaters and plumbers call themselves and consider themselves engineers and if a degreeded and educated engineer object- he's called a snob and ridiculed. Skilled technicians and blue collar workers are not allowed to call themselves engineers in Germany, America or any other part of the world for that matter.
From this it appears that we have exactly the same opinion. I'm not sure why you have taken issue with my post?Carsie said:
Adam205 said:
I am proud to come from an engineering background and call myself an engineer.
You bring solace to my soul 
As a Chartered Manufacturing Engineer, currently doing "Improvement Projects" (as a contractor) for a large East Midlands Based Aircraft Engine Company, I frequently find myself "not worthy" when compared to the technical abilities of some of the boffins.
mike9009 said:
I could probably work anywhere in the world (and have done on short terms projects in Mexico, India and the US - missionary work! ) but I value other things in life (friends, family, a pub, the BBC etc., etc...) over having a massive salary.
Very true, there's more to a job than salary. Although for me the UK happens to be the best place for my industry. ) but I value other things in life (friends, family, a pub, the BBC etc., etc...) over having a massive salary. With regards to the whole technician/engineer thing, a petition has been started:
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/6271
Please circulate it to as many engineers as you can, thanks.
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