RE: Ford reveals 125hp engine - of just 1000cc
Discussion
Apache said:
It's admirable Zwolf but there has been a price to pay, historically, for squeezing more mpg/bhp from an ever shrinking stone. Will the repair bills be even more horrendous?
The complexity and component count is certainly greater, so probably yes in the fullness of time - free lunches and all that.But who buys cars new to keep them for decades any more? Cars have moved from being a luxury item to a white good. People will and do spend £10-20k to save £100 pa in VED and around £400 in fuel. They'll also change their car at three years old (so depreciation of several thousands becomes apparent) to avoid the risk of a "large" repair bill (of several hundred) once out of the safe, predictable warranty period.
The working out that it therefore takes 20-40 years to make it balance out never really gets done and they'll be back in two to three years for another change anyway. Manufacturers are aware of these factors and can engineer accordingly...
Zwolf said:
Apache said:
It's admirable Zwolf but there has been a price to pay, historically, for squeezing more mpg/bhp from an ever shrinking stone. Will the repair bills be even more horrendous?
The complexity and component count is certainly greater, so probably yes in the fullness of time - free lunches and all that.But who buys cars new to keep them for decades any more? Cars have moved from being a luxury item to a white good. People will and do spend £10-20k to save £100 pa in VED and around £400 in fuel. They'll also change their car at three years old (so depreciation of several thousands becomes apparent) to avoid the risk of a "large" repair bill (of several hundred) once out of the safe, predictable warranty period.
The working out that it therefore takes 20-40 years to make it balance out never really gets done and they'll be back in two to three years for another change anyway. Manufacturers are aware of these factors and can engineer accordingly...
MC Bodge said:
Whilst at the same time, fewer and fewer people actually know or understand anything about what goes on under the bonnet of their car.
True. I used to get asked quite a few technical questions by car buyers, these days there are only a very few recurring ones. - How many mpg does it give?
- How much is the tax?
- Does it have Bluetooth and more importantly, USB?
Apache said:
Interesting, but not everyone buys new so the secondhand market will adjust accordingly.....are we truly beginning to see cars as disposable after 100k?
No, but the second hand market is determined by the new car market, just delayed, the same trends tend to follow. 100k? Long before that in most cases. Five years and 60k+ are starting to be considered "old" and a big turn off for people. It's not helped by all these very economical diesels we've had in the last ten years becoming liabilities as mileages approach and pass six figures as a result of turbo failures, injector replacement, expensive clutch changes due to DMFs, problems caused by clogged up DPFs and so on are all giving Joe Public enough cause in their minds to be increasingly warier of economical cars out of warranty.
300bhp/ton said:
Zwoelf said:
125bhp/litre specific output = interesting.
>reads it's turbocharged<
>reverts to indifference<
I'm quite pleased in some ways, as per the ethos of the article.>reads it's turbocharged<
>reverts to indifference<
However is this really that amazing? I agree 125bhp/litre via turbocharging isn't anything new.
Hell an Evo FQ360 easily tops that with 180bhp/litre.
Even the Brabus Roadster with it's 698cc turbo 3 managed 143bhp/litre...... and the stock 80hp Roadster was around 115bhp/litre.
Noesph said:
Apache said:
gowmonster said:
Apache said:
Interesting, but not everyone buys new so the secondhand market will adjust accordingly.....are we truly beginning to see cars as disposable after 100k?
We have seen that already, pretty much any french car 
Well, it's not really verbal as I typed it.
But I just get sick of french car bashing it on here sometimes, by people who nothing about engineering and care far more about brand image(8 years as a toolmaker, welder, CNC programmer and setter, and autocad tech, now doing a beng in mechanical engineering), I've been around french cars for years, seen old peugeots with 600K+ used as taxis that are still on the go with everything working. You still see 30 year old 205's on the go (See what rust is on a 30 year old ford). Or the number of old 504's still about in Africa, on unmade dirt roads. I take cars by there merits, not from what country there from, or there price band. But because its not German, with the wrong badge, on here, its crap. Its just getting old.....
Same as I make a part for that goes into engines for VW group, PSA, Fiat / Chrysler, BMW , Mercedes and Subaru. I don't go "Oh this is going in a Bentley, I'll make it better than one that goes in a fiat" there all made the to the same standard. I mean about 60 to 70% of whats in a car where made by sub contractors, who could be from anywhere.
And gowmonster, your on 106oc for Christ sakes.
But I just get sick of french car bashing it on here sometimes, by people who nothing about engineering and care far more about brand image(8 years as a toolmaker, welder, CNC programmer and setter, and autocad tech, now doing a beng in mechanical engineering), I've been around french cars for years, seen old peugeots with 600K+ used as taxis that are still on the go with everything working. You still see 30 year old 205's on the go (See what rust is on a 30 year old ford). Or the number of old 504's still about in Africa, on unmade dirt roads. I take cars by there merits, not from what country there from, or there price band. But because its not German, with the wrong badge, on here, its crap. Its just getting old.....
Same as I make a part for that goes into engines for VW group, PSA, Fiat / Chrysler, BMW , Mercedes and Subaru. I don't go "Oh this is going in a Bentley, I'll make it better than one that goes in a fiat" there all made the to the same standard. I mean about 60 to 70% of whats in a car where made by sub contractors, who could be from anywhere.
And gowmonster, your on 106oc for Christ sakes.
Edited by Noesph on Wednesday 13th February 23:36
Noesph said:
Well, it's not really verbal as I typed it.
But I just get sick of french car bashing it on here sometimes, by people who nothing about engineering and care far more about brand image(8 years as a toolmaker, welder, CNC programmer and setter, and autocad tech, now doing a beng in mechanical engineering), I've been around french cars for years, seen old peugeots with 600K+ used as taxis that are still on the go with everything working. You still see 30 year old 205's on the go (See what rust is on a 30 year old ford). Or the number of old 504's still about in Africa, on unmade dirt roads. I take cars by there merits, not from what country there from, or there price band. But because its not German, with the wrong badge, on here, its crap. Its just getting old.....
Same as I make a part for that goes into engines for VW group, PSA, Fiat / Chrysler, BMW , Mercedes and Subaru. I don't go "Oh this is going in a Bentley, I'll make it better than one that goes in a fiat" there all made the to the same standard. I mean about 60 to 70% of whats in a car where made by sub contractors, who could be from anywhere.
And gowmonster, your on 106oc for Christ sakes.
There. Their. They're.But I just get sick of french car bashing it on here sometimes, by people who nothing about engineering and care far more about brand image(8 years as a toolmaker, welder, CNC programmer and setter, and autocad tech, now doing a beng in mechanical engineering), I've been around french cars for years, seen old peugeots with 600K+ used as taxis that are still on the go with everything working. You still see 30 year old 205's on the go (See what rust is on a 30 year old ford). Or the number of old 504's still about in Africa, on unmade dirt roads. I take cars by there merits, not from what country there from, or there price band. But because its not German, with the wrong badge, on here, its crap. Its just getting old.....
Same as I make a part for that goes into engines for VW group, PSA, Fiat / Chrysler, BMW , Mercedes and Subaru. I don't go "Oh this is going in a Bentley, I'll make it better than one that goes in a fiat" there all made the to the same standard. I mean about 60 to 70% of whats in a car where made by sub contractors, who could be from anywhere.
And gowmonster, your on 106oc for Christ sakes.
Edited by Noesph on Wednesday 13th February 23:36
Calm down.
Noesph said:
Well, it's not really verbal as I typed it.
But I just get sick of french car bashing it on here sometimes, by people who nothing about engineering and care far more about brand image(8 years as a toolmaker, welder, CNC programmer and setter, and autocad tech, now doing a beng in mechanical engineering), I've been around french cars for years, seen old peugeots with 600K+ used as taxis that are still on the go with everything working. You still see 30 year old 205's on the go (See what rust is on a 30 year old ford). Or the number of old 504's still about in Africa, on unmade dirt roads. I take cars by there merits, not from what country there from, or there price band. But because its not German, with the wrong badge, on here, its crap. Its just getting old.....
Same as I make a part for that goes into engines for VW group, PSA, Fiat / Chrysler, BMW , Mercedes and Subaru. I don't go "Oh this is going in a Bentley, I'll make it better than one that goes in a fiat" there all made the to the same standard. I mean about 60 to 70% of whats in a car where made by sub contractors, who could be from anywhere.
And gowmonster, your on 106oc for Christ sakes.
From the data I've seen (I design cars) FIAT and PSA are amongst the worst in the industry for warranty costs (i.e. failures). As with many stereotypes, there is an element of truth to it.But I just get sick of french car bashing it on here sometimes, by people who nothing about engineering and care far more about brand image(8 years as a toolmaker, welder, CNC programmer and setter, and autocad tech, now doing a beng in mechanical engineering), I've been around french cars for years, seen old peugeots with 600K+ used as taxis that are still on the go with everything working. You still see 30 year old 205's on the go (See what rust is on a 30 year old ford). Or the number of old 504's still about in Africa, on unmade dirt roads. I take cars by there merits, not from what country there from, or there price band. But because its not German, with the wrong badge, on here, its crap. Its just getting old.....
Same as I make a part for that goes into engines for VW group, PSA, Fiat / Chrysler, BMW , Mercedes and Subaru. I don't go "Oh this is going in a Bentley, I'll make it better than one that goes in a fiat" there all made the to the same standard. I mean about 60 to 70% of whats in a car where made by sub contractors, who could be from anywhere.
And gowmonster, your on 106oc for Christ sakes.
Edited by Noesph on Wednesday 13th February 23:36
Noesph said:
Well, it's not really verbal as I typed it.
But I just get sick of french car bashing it on here sometimes, by people who nothing about engineering and care far more about brand image(8 years as a toolmaker, welder, CNC programmer and setter, and autocad tech, now doing a beng in mechanical engineering), I've been around french cars for years, seen old peugeots with 600K+ used as taxis that are still on the go with everything working. You still see 30 year old 205's on the go (See what rust is on a 30 year old ford). Or the number of old 504's still about in Africa, on unmade dirt roads. I take cars by there merits, not from what country there from, or there price band. But because its not German, with the wrong badge, on here, its crap. Its just getting old.....
Same as I make a part for that goes into engines for VW group, PSA, Fiat / Chrysler, BMW , Mercedes and Subaru. I don't go "Oh this is going in a Bentley, I'll make it better than one that goes in a fiat" there all made the to the same standard. I mean about 60 to 70% of whats in a car where made by sub contractors, who could be from anywhere.
And gowmonster, your on 106oc for Christ sakes.
Just cause he is on an owners club doesn't mean he can't say bad stuff about certain cars.But I just get sick of french car bashing it on here sometimes, by people who nothing about engineering and care far more about brand image(8 years as a toolmaker, welder, CNC programmer and setter, and autocad tech, now doing a beng in mechanical engineering), I've been around french cars for years, seen old peugeots with 600K+ used as taxis that are still on the go with everything working. You still see 30 year old 205's on the go (See what rust is on a 30 year old ford). Or the number of old 504's still about in Africa, on unmade dirt roads. I take cars by there merits, not from what country there from, or there price band. But because its not German, with the wrong badge, on here, its crap. Its just getting old.....
Same as I make a part for that goes into engines for VW group, PSA, Fiat / Chrysler, BMW , Mercedes and Subaru. I don't go "Oh this is going in a Bentley, I'll make it better than one that goes in a fiat" there all made the to the same standard. I mean about 60 to 70% of whats in a car where made by sub contractors, who could be from anywhere.
And gowmonster, your on 106oc for Christ sakes.
Edited by Noesph on Wednesday 13th February 23:36
Having had a mk2 clio as a first car, i can speak from my own experiences. It was s
t and i will be very surprised if it makes 100k.We had it in the family from new for 8 years, it covered 60k before being traded in over a space of 8 years.
So not huge miles for a car. The list of failures is rather large.
Gearbox, both driveshafts, front and rear springs, front struts, rear dampers, water pump, head gasket, power steering pump and there was issues with the front brake calipers as well.
My mum's facelift mk2 clio is little better but it's still on it's original gearbox and one driveshaft.
Put me off french car's. Ironically my Disco3 is the most reliable car i've owned, despite the internet etc saying it will ruin me with bills and failures.
As for the Ford engine, time will tell on how it lasts, but it's nice to see how as technology improves, you can get better figures from smaller engines. The engines will last as well as the owner's treat them and with the general lack of care shown to car's that may be the undoing of the engine.
Look to threads on here about how people don't service or do any basic checks of cars to see how most people regard cars.
Noesph said:
Well, it's not really verbal as I typed it.
But I just get sick of french car bashing it on here sometimes, by people who nothing about engineering and care far more about brand image(8 years as a toolmaker, welder, CNC programmer and setter, and autocad tech, now doing a beng in mechanical engineering), I've been around french cars for years, seen old peugeots with 600K+ used as taxis that are still on the go with everything working. You still see 30 year old 205's on the go (See what rust is on a 30 year old ford). Or the number of old 504's still about in Africa, on unmade dirt roads. I take cars by there merits, not from what country there from, or there price band. But because its not German, with the wrong badge, on here, its crap. Its just getting old.....
Same as I make a part for that goes into engines for VW group, PSA, Fiat / Chrysler, BMW , Mercedes and Subaru. I don't go "Oh this is going in a Bentley, I'll make it better than one that goes in a fiat" there all made the to the same standard. I mean about 60 to 70% of whats in a car where made by sub contractors, who could be from anywhere.
And gowmonster, your on 106oc for Christ sakes.
Don't take it too personally, I loved my 106 and miss it, miss the handling and the fun b road hoons.But I just get sick of french car bashing it on here sometimes, by people who nothing about engineering and care far more about brand image(8 years as a toolmaker, welder, CNC programmer and setter, and autocad tech, now doing a beng in mechanical engineering), I've been around french cars for years, seen old peugeots with 600K+ used as taxis that are still on the go with everything working. You still see 30 year old 205's on the go (See what rust is on a 30 year old ford). Or the number of old 504's still about in Africa, on unmade dirt roads. I take cars by there merits, not from what country there from, or there price band. But because its not German, with the wrong badge, on here, its crap. Its just getting old.....
Same as I make a part for that goes into engines for VW group, PSA, Fiat / Chrysler, BMW , Mercedes and Subaru. I don't go "Oh this is going in a Bentley, I'll make it better than one that goes in a fiat" there all made the to the same standard. I mean about 60 to 70% of whats in a car where made by sub contractors, who could be from anywhere.
And gowmonster, your on 106oc for Christ sakes.
Edited by Noesph on Wednesday 13th February 23:36
but.... it was a w reg with 52k miles, and i had it 4 years, it broke a lot. the mx5 we had for the same period broke once when i overtightend the alternator belt. The civic I had for a year didn't break at all, and the subaru we have only just broke because with a minor issue.
compare that to my laguna.
rear suspension bushes
2 front springs.
rear wiring loom
window regulators
turbo seals (serviced more than the recommended 18k oil changes too)
slipping clutch and clicking DMF
central locking.
a lot cheaper to fix mind you, and the jap cars are prone to rust. so weigh that up how you will.
All i'm saying is go into your local scrappy, and check how many french cars are in that are under 100k miles.
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