RE: PH Blog: what's the point of BTCC?

[EDLT]

Exar Kun said:

A lot of people here bemoan the loss of the Group A category which was basically about RS500 Sierras aswell (even though they were never sold here) and at the end the Nissan GTR came along and wiped the floor with everything else which in part prompted the beginning of the V8 touring car era.

We had similar problem with AWD Audi 80s that the rose tinted glasses wearers conveniently forget.

[Ian974]

EDLT said:

Herbert wasn't that fast when he was in it a few years ago. We won't get big name drivers because they will want paying, the only way that would happen is if the manufacturers came back and that would eventually lead to another boom and bust period. Which nobody wants outside PH's resident experts that know so much they don't even watch the racing.

That's the catch really. My opinion is that some big name/international competition level drivers would be the icing on the cake but agree that it's not likely.
I also agree that some may not be as fast as the regulars, but I think that is what would possibly give it a reference against other series?
For example, say Hamilton or Vettel got a drive for 1 or 2 races (I know, not going to happen) and had very 'good' races but just ended up fighting back and forth for a podium instead of walking all over the field, I think it would highlight more that the guys out there really are very good at what they do.
If you see what I mean. I know what I'm trying to explain, but can't find the words right now!
And no bashing it the way it is from me, I will be at knockhill next year again!

[Crafty_]

EDLT said:

Crafty_ said:

Dunlop SportMax ? its very close to what you suggest, albeit it with "bolt on" mods allowed.

Personally I've not found BTCC as interesting the last couple of years. I see "the biggest grid ever" touted, sure but its full of old cars - the vectras will still be knocking about, now 5 years old, the civics are the same age and so on. Lea Wood was running his integra last year - how old is that thing ?
The Chevys were running engines based on the XE that Vauxhall stopping using in road cars in 1994.

This year the Chevys, Hondas, Seats, Toyota, Proton, Fords, Audis and an Insignia at the end of the year (will do a full season next year) were all current models. Is the new BMW repmobile out yet? It wasn't at the start of the year so you could add BMW to that list. Being "full of old cars" is an odd complaint when everyone is getting misty eyed over Sierras.

The Insignia didn't race, just did formation laps did it not ?
Weren't the SEATS the old factory cars from a few years ago, minus the diesel engines?
The AON Fords were new, the other ones were old cars

The NGTC cars you mention only appeared at a few meetings and to be honest didn't really add anything until the last few races when they finally got on the pace. I agree it should be better next year.

[EDLT]

Crafty_ said:

EDLT said:

Crafty_ said:

Dunlop SportMax ? its very close to what you suggest, albeit it with "bolt on" mods allowed.

Personally I've not found BTCC as interesting the last couple of years. I see "the biggest grid ever" touted, sure but its full of old cars - the vectras will still be knocking about, now 5 years old, the civics are the same age and so on. Lea Wood was running his integra last year - how old is that thing ?
The Chevys were running engines based on the XE that Vauxhall stopping using in road cars in 1994.

This year the Chevys, Hondas, Seats, Toyota, Proton, Fords, Audis and an Insignia at the end of the year (will do a full season next year) were all current models. Is the new BMW repmobile out yet? It wasn't at the start of the year so you could add BMW to that list. Being "full of old cars" is an odd complaint when everyone is getting misty eyed over Sierras.

The Insignia didn't race, just did formation laps did it not ?
Weren't the SEATS the old factory cars from a few years ago, minus the diesel engines?
The AON Fords were new, the other ones were old cars

The NGTC cars you mention only appeared at a few meetings and to be honest didn't really add anything until the last few races when they finally got on the pace. I agree it should be better next year.

The Seat is still a current model, given how often parts/shells get replaced who's to say how old it is? You never said anything about being competitive, reliable or turning up to all of the events that is moving the goal posts somewhat - not that all of the 'old' cars managed to meet these new stipulations. BTCC has always had independents running old cars, even in the 'glory years'. They even have a separate championship for it.

[noclue]

Sorry I have not read the entire thread here, just the article but I could not disagree more!!

I love BTCC and find Formula 1 incredibly dull in comparison.

As far as I understand the changes that have been made are trying to counteract the fact that maufacturers are simply not spending money on racing at the moment so they are attempting to make it cheaper to run a BTCC car and therefore keep the grid full.

Drivers such a Plato, Neil etc show incredible skills and are incredibly passionate about what there do.

The points set up is specifically designed to keep things intresting and reward consistantly good peformers while giving others that may not have the funds to drive the latest cars a chance to truly get in the thick of it without just being there to make up the numbers.

Plus lets not forget the revenue it is generating to keep mulipe tracks accross the UK trading.

Thats my two penny worth, and I guess its different opinions that make things intresting.

[dBro]

It may have already been said, but it's funny you guys are looking to our supertaxi's for some entertaining racing - we are feeling the same way about them as you guys are about the BTCC

Personally I have been seeking out some pre-2000 racing, back when each team had different strengths and weaknesses, when the little guy's were taking on giants... but thats just me

[dtrump]

dBro said:

It may have already been said, but it's funny you guys are looking to our supertaxi's for some entertaining racing - we are feeling the same way about them as you guys are about the BTCC

Personally I have been seeking out some pre-2000 racing, back when each team had different strengths and weaknesses, when the little guy's were taking on giants... but thats just me

hmmm

everything seems quite messed up. It doesnt seem tough to get right, but clearly it is

money affects

[BMR]

dBro said:

It may have already been said, but it's funny you guys are looking to our supertaxi's for some entertaining racing - we are feeling the same way about them as you guys are about the BTCC

Personally I have been seeking out some pre-2000 racing, back when each team had different strengths and weaknesses, when the little guy's were taking on giants... but thats just me

The grass is always greener isn't it? Think that sums it up.

I do enjoy some V8 action (but BTCC more!), there's usually some good racing and I love the sound of the cars. The whole series also gives off a bit of an air of being profesional (not sure if that's true or not) with good drivers, teams etc.

Another point about the V8's is that their seems to be a lot of top name sponsors willing to support the series, what I find remarkable about that is it is in a country the size of Australia population wise.

The big problem here in the UK I feel is companies aren't willing to get behind drivers. So the professional, quick drivers out there who could turn into these big names hit a wall due to the lack of funding, and the BTCC needs the current mix of rich gentleman racers to fill it out.

I also think a lot of the problem with people saying the BTCC has lost it's spark is because it went through that extraordinary era in the 1990's. There's zero chance of getting 10 factory teams back, and even now look at the factory teams we had in 2011 - Honda and Chevy - heavily subsidised by additional sponsorship. The days of fully funded factory teams and paid drivers is well and truly over.

[dtrump]

BMR said:

The days of fully funded factory teams and paid drivers is well and truly over.

but hopefully not forever

one day, fingers firmly crossed

[Henry Fiddleton]

RenesisEvo said:

Montreal? Silverstone? Monaco? Did you miss those?

Great. The other 16 races? The last three were not really watchable!


Sticking to BTCC, hopefully Giovinardi (spelling!), Turkington, and Thompson get a seat. Remember its not BTCCs fault they could not afford the drives- sponsors and salaries are a factor.

Edited by Henry Fiddleton on Friday 2nd December 08:47

[The Wookie]

Riggers said:

Think you've got the nail on the head there. Oh ,and when I talked about the lack of truly top-line drivers I obviously did not mean certain former Caterham stars...

Don't worry, I haven't got delusions of grandieur I know I'm half decent but I'm far from awesome. Plus until someone waits fifteen minutes outside a dry cleaners for an uncomfortably long handshake I wont be a big name either

Having said that, I do think the quality of the drivers is underrated. I've raced against some fairly serious people (WTCC independents champion, Supercup champions, ex F1 drivers) sometimes in identical machinery, and been close enough to feel pretty smug (sometimes even in front) but I didn't walk straight into the front of BTCC, or even the top ten, nor did I expect to.

Most of the guys at the front have been doing it for a number of years and have got it sharpened to a fine point. They're fast, they're very consistent and they know how to race, so it's not easy for even a big name driver to walk in and show everyone the way round.

[RenesisEvo]

Henry Fiddleton said:

Great. The other 16 races? The last three were not really watchable!

The last few certainly weren't great I agree.

It's really hard to put a finger on what's going on with the BTCC. Some of the races on TV have been good, tbh I haven't got out to see a race live this year. Part of the issue for me is when I did watch a race last year, is that whilst there was plenty of close racing (and a bit of contact), compared to a lot of other race series, the cars really lack drama, both visually and aurally. They all sound a bit, well, weedy really, and the sense of speed isn't there most of the time. I think the NGTC cars are much better visually, mostly due to not having that ridiculous skirting board down the side, but they will always be compared to the super tourers of the 90's and its very difficult to match that. Perhaps a bit more power, which should provide more noise, and a bit less grip, might improve the show a little.

[Aused]

this article is a bit rubbish imho, so the writer doesn't like BTCC, so what, my home has mostly been Australia and I find the V8s dull as dishwater and would watch the BTCC anyday.

[Madmatt74]

I remember the SD1's and RS500's then driving home in my dads SD1 knowing we have the same car.
Now you see car with huge boby kits that have no relivence to the cars we drive.

I drive an Insignia SRI and i want to see them race in standard form (Exterior) so i too can imagin i drive a touring car just like my old man.

Thats what made the racing good!

If not its GT racing and V8 Utes for me!

[rwindmill]

rwindmill said:

Back in the halcyon days of the early 90's, the cars were raw in terms of engineering. They had no aerodynamic packages so each car had a character of its own in terms of handling at the limit. There suspension packaghes were very simple and in the engine bay electronics whilst present were no where near as sophisticated as today.

Did you even watch the BTCC back then? Have you forgotten Alfa Romeo's dodgey aerodynamic package that they claimed was a standard part on a road car (it was in the boot). The cars were hideously complicated and expensive too, the suspension and engine and electrical systems shared as much with the road cars as next year's Caterham F1. Then as more and more money was poured in we ended up with the Lagunas that had an interesting statistic which went something like this:
Jason Plato's pole time at Silverstone in 1998 would have put him fourth on the 2004 British GT grid. A 2-litre FWD Saloon. Fourth.

I agree entirely, the Alfa Romeo's and there 'Aero package' was the begining of the end for the BTCC. The Halcyon days i was refering to were those days before aero packages. It was after this point that the cars began to get more and more complicated, more and more expensive and completely detached from the road cars they were meant to represent. Just as a quick example, the brakes discs on a 1998 touring car were actually bigger than the whole wheel on Andy Rouse's 1992 Toyota CarinaII.

rwindmill said:

And each car also had a character driving it, the likes of John Cleland, Tim Harvey, Steve (Git) Soper drove the cars in a no-quarter asked style that made each race an adventure. Nowadays the only tow who seem to do that are Jason Plato and Matt neal, and that is because they are relics from the very halcyon days that we are talking about.
How we solve this problem is a mystery to me, because we obviously cant regress (technology wise), but i think as time goes on it will only get worse.
Please dont get me wrong, i am all for progress and beleive that in our everyday world it is very necessary. But i fear that as time goes on we will lose more and more of the very things that made motorsport so unique.

Name a series where the racers haven't become more corporate.

You have hit the nail on the head, all drivers now are groomed from an early age, to be able to face the media and answer questions in that horrendously dull and monotone way. It makes you miss the likes of Eddie Irvine etc, he might not have had that much success, but in an interview you knew exactly how he felt.

rwindmill said:

If you dont believe me, ask yourself the question, which sounds better Ford DFV, or the current crop of F1 V8's? Audi Quattro S1 or WRC Ford Fiesta? And then ask yourself what is the difference?

To me, a DFV sounds like a racing V8 that could be in anything (and it was!) whereas an F1 V8 could only be an F1 car. The same could be applied to the Audi's 5-pot against what is one of many four cylinder racing engines. So which sounds better, a Fiesta WRC or a Lancia Delta Integrale? Er...

Agreed, the DFV was used in many formula. But seriously a DFV in a Lotus 49 for me is the epitome of a great F1 sound. Modern F1 engines are just too bland. Sure, they scream up to 18,000 rpm but they have no character, no soul. Amply demonstrated by the Top gear article when Richard Hammond drove the Renault F1 car. At the end the Reanualt technicians made the engine play the national anthem. Interestng technically, but it reduced the engine to a music instrument. And all musical instruments sound the same as each other.

As for the Fiesta vs Integrale question, no contest. Integrale everytime :-)

[Riggers]

Aused said:

this article is a bit rubbish imho, so the writer doesn't like BTCC, so what, my home has mostly been Australia and I find the V8s dull as dishwater and would watch the BTCC anyday.

No no, I do like the BTCC - I just don't like it at the moment

And it is merely an opinion - no less valid than your own , even if it is opposed to it...

[richb77]

Its like an article i would write. Word for word EXACTLY how i feel.

I lost interest soon after the wings where permitted as it spoilt the purity of the action.

Long gone and i fear never to return are the days with the likes of John Cleland, Paul Radisich, joachim winkelhock e.t.c. These where the heyday.

I too follow the Aussie V8 supercars now, and having been to two live events i can say it does have SOME of the spark the old BTCC had.

Just wish i could live in AU and go more often. Damn these visas!

[Twincam16]

Actually I think Riggers was being overly harsh on BTCC. I've watched it since the early '90s, however, for me it started to get dull in the '00s when the manufacturer-backed teams started pulling out due to cost and we ended up with Vauxhall winning absolutely everything.

I followed this season religiously, went to the Oulton Park round, and thought it was almost as good as it was back in the '90s. Far more exciting than the average F1 race at a Tilkedrome at any rate. Also, I did notice that there were an awful lot of young people there, contrary to a previous post. Young people with computers do like cars and motor racing, otherwise they wouldn't watch Top Gear or play race-simulator computer games would they?

However, I think there is a bit of a problem with the disconnect between the track cars and the road cars. Back in the '90s, even though the race cars shared hardly anything with their road car siblings, there would at least be a BTCC-inspired road car. They'd offer sharp handling (FWD, but like a giant hot hatch), a perky engine (reasonably powerful, but not so unwieldy that the average family buyer would consider it too thirsty or expensive to insure, usually a 2-litre four of 150-200bhp), and they'd be fairly affordable. I'm thinking Mondeo ST200, 155 Silverstone, 850 T5, Primera eGT, Cavalier GSi - these were the cars you wished your Dad bought. And he could - they were affordable, cheap(ish) to run, fun to drive, practical and easy to justify as a family car. And Dads watched BTCC with their kids. Its very down-to-earthness made it something of a bonding exercise for families as much as great motorsport.

Fastforward to today and I can't think of any of those cars on that grid beyond the Focus ST and the Civic Type-R that you can buy as an 'inspired by BTCC' car in showrooms. Where's the sharpened, lightened, fun version of the Toyota Avensis, Chevrolet Cruze or Proton Gen-2? The sporty versions of the cars further up the grid are in a different league for running costs and price tags altogether - Audi RS4, BMW M3, Vauxhall Insignia VXR - they're all very different prospects to the 2-litre cars on the racetrack. The car may win on Sunday, but if you can't buy it on Monday, it's disappointing.

[Reardy Mister]

Touring cars in general isnt the sport it was. The cars are quieter, more similar to look at and hear, more artificially aligned and the racing more sterile. Its hard to have a passionate alleigance to one car or driver when theyre all so similar. IIRC, isnt the guy in charge of BTCC the guy who used to be in charge of V8 Sueprcars?

V8 Supercars will be really interesting when the TCOTF arrives. Im hoping for something akin to going back to the days of GrpA, but not holding my breath.

Ive quite enjoyed BTCC for the last 2 yrs and its seems to be getting stronger.

There's more motorsport than ever and less money to go around. Something has to give.

[Rew]

I used to love to watch the BTCC back in the 80's and 90's. These was the cars that you could watch race on the Sunday and buy something with a similar engine ( obviously nowhere near as tuned ), bodywork and spoilers on the Monday, pretty much the same with the rally cars of the same era. These days, the cars are more loosly based on the the production models with wider arches and different bumpers and spoilers. Its the distance between the race and road models that has made me lose interest in this and the WRC.

I guess I am starting to get older and more grumpy.