RE: PH Blog: what's the point of BTCC?
Discussion
Reardy Mister said:
There's more motorsport than ever and less money to go around. Something has to give.
Combining IRC and WRC for a concentrated assault on terrestrial TV would be a good start. I miss high-profile televised rallying, and with those two series effectively married together, we'd get a full range of manufacturers for a start. I just can't get excited by a rallying series where half the field is made up of Citroens, none of which are as good as Sebastien Loeb's.
That Mansell video is saved on my phone , I occasionally want it for a spur of inspiration. That race is most deifnitely in my top 10 for exciting races out there.
I watched some aussie v8 racing a few weeks ago, i have to agree the close racing is a lot more entertaining than current BTCC stuff.
I watched some aussie v8 racing a few weeks ago, i have to agree the close racing is a lot more entertaining than current BTCC stuff.
Reardy Mister said:
IIRC, isnt the guy in charge of BTCC the guy who used to be in charge of V8 Sueprcars?
He is also the guy that turned the BTCC around in the early 90's and made it the massive success that it was by getting big budget manufacturers/teams to join the series. Unfortunately, in the world of motorsport I do not think the BTCC attracts the kind of drivers it used to in the 90's. There was a thread on here recently pointing that most were self funded wealthy "enthusuasts" which is what the BTCC was like for most of the 80's. Note how people only remember the RS500s, but there were a lot more mundain cars on the grid for those races, mostly of the self funded variety.
I just think it has now gone back to being a domestic championship and not the international status that it achieved in the 90's.
I'm too young to remember the Sierras and E30s, my interest in BTCC peaked circa 98, when I saw my first race at Croft. I remember going with my Dad and meeting the two Nissan drivers at the time (Leslie and Reid I think), they signed a blue Nissan flag for me that I still have in my garage. Had pictures taken stood next to their car in the pits, I loved it as at the time my Dad had a Primera too, and being a kid I basically thought it was a touring car! I used to love the series, but the lack of manufacturer teams is what I think has made my interest dwindle. Not enough variety for me.
A few years ago I bagged some tickets to the round at Brands and took my old man down to watch it. It was the race where Plato got tapped in the 1st corner, ended up what looked like 45 degrees plus but still managed to pull it straight. It was a decent days racing as a wet Brands is always going to ensure at least a little bit of hilarity.
I only know a few people my age with even a passing interest in the series anymore. It's a shame as I always preferred BTCC to F1 simply because I found the races more exciting. These days I only watch the odd race if I catch it. I know there has been changes and these NGTCs might be interesting so I'll try and catch the 1st race next season.
A few years ago I bagged some tickets to the round at Brands and took my old man down to watch it. It was the race where Plato got tapped in the 1st corner, ended up what looked like 45 degrees plus but still managed to pull it straight. It was a decent days racing as a wet Brands is always going to ensure at least a little bit of hilarity.
I only know a few people my age with even a passing interest in the series anymore. It's a shame as I always preferred BTCC to F1 simply because I found the races more exciting. These days I only watch the odd race if I catch it. I know there has been changes and these NGTCs might be interesting so I'll try and catch the 1st race next season.
In the 80's I regularily attended BTCC races and the British round of the WRC, why because Motorsport on TV back then was pre SKY, pre internet and limited to the BBC & ITV and all we could see was F1,BTCC and WRC.
Given BTCC was usually part of Grandstand, the viewing figures were huge and therefore many people would then attend their local BTCC event, even if they weren't serious motorsport fans they had seen the racing on TV and knew what to expect.
Also the WRC British leg had stages through England, Wales and Scotland allowing people to attend their local stages, since it's become a mickey mouse event in South Wales why would people in the North of England or Scotland attend.
Today with so many channels showing motor sport from the 4 corners of the world, the viewing numbers are diluted and BTCC and WRC have suffered as they have moved from the mainstream channels, it will be interesting to see if Sky will have the same number of viewers for F1 next year as the BBC do on the occasions the BBC shows races.
I like many others now watch the Aussie V8 racing, because it's exciting. Most Brits got introduced to it back in the 80's when the BBC (might have been ITV) showed the annual Bathurst race and we all got our first glimpse of the V8'S tackling Mount Panarama, awesome racing and at the time seemed different.
Given BTCC was usually part of Grandstand, the viewing figures were huge and therefore many people would then attend their local BTCC event, even if they weren't serious motorsport fans they had seen the racing on TV and knew what to expect.
Also the WRC British leg had stages through England, Wales and Scotland allowing people to attend their local stages, since it's become a mickey mouse event in South Wales why would people in the North of England or Scotland attend.
Today with so many channels showing motor sport from the 4 corners of the world, the viewing numbers are diluted and BTCC and WRC have suffered as they have moved from the mainstream channels, it will be interesting to see if Sky will have the same number of viewers for F1 next year as the BBC do on the occasions the BBC shows races.
I like many others now watch the Aussie V8 racing, because it's exciting. Most Brits got introduced to it back in the 80's when the BBC (might have been ITV) showed the annual Bathurst race and we all got our first glimpse of the V8'S tackling Mount Panarama, awesome racing and at the time seemed different.
I only make a point of watching one V8 race a year (Bathurst) because mostly the racing is non-existent.
As usual people get all excited about V8-RWD, but mostly the racing is processional and dull. Like their DTM counterparts they're too closely matched and too reliant on aerodynamics (albeit less so than DTM) to be able to overtake, so (and here it's unlike DTM) they resort to bumping into each other (usually with terminal results for one or the other car in terms of a race finish - BTCC cars seem more capable of being caught and continuing after a gentle nudge) or just following each other in a long train.
Fun for five minutes on YouTube, but not really racing...
I do watch races now and then, but rarely watch all 3 at a meeting - One race at Surfer's Paradise recently was good, I'll concede, but as I recall the battle was for 5th and 6th or something.
The BTCC by contrast has short races full of action.
The comment made earlier that someone would rather watch "5 litre RWD V8s race than 2 litre FWD cars" seems odd to me - I'd rather see Nisan Micras RACE than watch 5 Litre barges follow each other around for 45 minutes...
M
As usual people get all excited about V8-RWD, but mostly the racing is processional and dull. Like their DTM counterparts they're too closely matched and too reliant on aerodynamics (albeit less so than DTM) to be able to overtake, so (and here it's unlike DTM) they resort to bumping into each other (usually with terminal results for one or the other car in terms of a race finish - BTCC cars seem more capable of being caught and continuing after a gentle nudge) or just following each other in a long train.
Fun for five minutes on YouTube, but not really racing...
I do watch races now and then, but rarely watch all 3 at a meeting - One race at Surfer's Paradise recently was good, I'll concede, but as I recall the battle was for 5th and 6th or something.
The BTCC by contrast has short races full of action.
The comment made earlier that someone would rather watch "5 litre RWD V8s race than 2 litre FWD cars" seems odd to me - I'd rather see Nisan Micras RACE than watch 5 Litre barges follow each other around for 45 minutes...
M
havoc said:
We stopped going when your average 'fan' started shouting stuff like "knock him off Plato!". Stopped watching it religiously on TV soon after - about 2 years ago. Not seen any of the races this year.
Proper racing is NOT about making places up by through pushing your way through and using the car as a weapon*...and it's got NOTHING to do with the media circus that Gow, Plato and Neal are desperately turning it into.
Proper racing is NOT about making places up by through pushing your way through and using the car as a weapon*...and it's got NOTHING to do with the media circus that Gow, Plato and Neal are desperately turning it into.
Did you watch the 90s videos in the article?^^
Looked pretty pushy/shovey to me, back then too.
V8mate said:
havoc said:
We stopped going when your average 'fan' started shouting stuff like "knock him off Plato!". Stopped watching it religiously on TV soon after - about 2 years ago. Not seen any of the races this year.
Proper racing is NOT about making places up by through pushing your way through and using the car as a weapon*...and it's got NOTHING to do with the media circus that Gow, Plato and Neal are desperately turning it into.
Proper racing is NOT about making places up by through pushing your way through and using the car as a weapon*...and it's got NOTHING to do with the media circus that Gow, Plato and Neal are desperately turning it into.
Did you watch the 90s videos in the article?^^
Looked pretty pushy/shovey to me, back then too.
) and it's been pretty much a light-contact sport since the early 80s.I went to Aldershot's short oval a couple of years back and saw a young lad make his way through from the back of the grid to win by gently unsettling every car in the field into a corner and then diving through on the inside - a Touring Car star in the making if ever I saw one!
M
In my personal opinion its due to the fact that there in no manufactueres any more to speak of. It has basically become an independant race series. The days of Ford - BMW - Audi - Renault - Nissan - Volvo etc are long gone and will never b back 
No matter what race you watch its same old same old, WTCC is'nt far behind!! I have to agree its Aussi Super cars all the way. My son raced in the first half of the Mini Challenge this season (budget ran out ) which Motors Tv also covers and that is far closer and exciting then BTCC could ever b!!
No matter what race you watch its same old same old, WTCC is'nt far behind!! I have to agree its Aussi Super cars all the way. My son raced in the first half of the Mini Challenge this season (budget ran out ) which Motors Tv also covers and that is far closer and exciting then BTCC could ever b!!The only good v8s car race ive seen this year was at symonds plain race track due to the tight track layout and short and short for V8s races when i see the longer races i get so bored.
I don't get long races for touring car series touring cars should be short no longer than 30-40mins action packed racing which what btcc produces most of the time yes there are some boring races like anything but overal its close and exciting to watch. Remember oulton park this year wet to dry track people gambling on different tyres and watching some of the cars down the back overtaking the top drivers lea wood got the oldest car on the grid to 5th or 6th if i remember correctly.
For people to say you can't buy a similar car to the race version well thats not the btcc fault is it that the manafactures fault for not wanting to build them. If you look around racing series apart from le mans manafactures are not intrested in racing win on sunday sell on monday has gone and lets be honest thete is no market in sports saloons and btcc inspired road cars so why sell them.
So if manafactures don't enter than its up to priverters to race which is the way the btcc has to go down and is to remain viable. Super tourer era was only a small blip in the btcc era for manafactures before or after they haven't really been intrested and its mostly been a british series full of british drivers and teams and i hope it stays like it.
I don't get long races for touring car series touring cars should be short no longer than 30-40mins action packed racing which what btcc produces most of the time yes there are some boring races like anything but overal its close and exciting to watch. Remember oulton park this year wet to dry track people gambling on different tyres and watching some of the cars down the back overtaking the top drivers lea wood got the oldest car on the grid to 5th or 6th if i remember correctly.
For people to say you can't buy a similar car to the race version well thats not the btcc fault is it that the manafactures fault for not wanting to build them. If you look around racing series apart from le mans manafactures are not intrested in racing win on sunday sell on monday has gone and lets be honest thete is no market in sports saloons and btcc inspired road cars so why sell them.
So if manafactures don't enter than its up to priverters to race which is the way the btcc has to go down and is to remain viable. Super tourer era was only a small blip in the btcc era for manafactures before or after they haven't really been intrested and its mostly been a british series full of british drivers and teams and i hope it stays like it.
Felix7 said:
That really does some up motorsport as a whole, although I would love to be proved wrong, the average age, especially for F1 is increasing, I would be surprised if the average age for BTCC is much less that between 35 and 40, both in terms of TV and trackside audience.
Motorsport generally does nothing to encourage the younger generation to follow it regardless of the formula. There is a real danger that it will become a marginalised sport unless more is done to encourage youngesters to follow it. The challenge is convert a percentage of those that play Forza 4, GT5 etc into watching it trackside or on the box.
When you next go to motorsport event look around you for anyone under 25, they will be in the minority.
Im With this sentiment , i mean the car is seen as an evil planet killer , its all about "what youve got" i know kids in their teens and early twnety quite happy to cripple themselves with payments on a new car even if its the 1.1 base model - Something Hatch Sized on a similar level to BTCC might encourage trackside viewersMotorsport generally does nothing to encourage the younger generation to follow it regardless of the formula. There is a real danger that it will become a marginalised sport unless more is done to encourage youngesters to follow it. The challenge is convert a percentage of those that play Forza 4, GT5 etc into watching it trackside or on the box.
When you next go to motorsport event look around you for anyone under 25, they will be in the minority.
marcosgt said:
The comment made earlier that someone would rather watch "5 litre RWD V8s race than 2 litre FWD cars" seems odd to me - I'd rather see Nisan Micras RACE than watch 5 Litre barges follow each other around for 45 minutes...
M
I agree with this, there is a video floating around youtube of some top F1/rally/touring car drivers racing around Donnington in Maestros that seemed to still have their road-spec suspension, tyres, brakes and an 'equalised' engine. The racing was brilliant, partly I think, because the cars were a bit rubbish so had to be driven on/over the limit all the time. M
I think there is too much vanity in racing to make a full time championship of it though.
I'm glad this article has been posted as it sums up my thoughts towards the BTCC, that basically it has lost the magic of the 80's and 90's, personally I think it's down to the loss of manufacturer backed teams where the cars genuinely represented the cars on the road at the time. Whether or not they did, it felt they were just road cars with stripped interiors racing.
This is why I think clubs such as the www.classictouringcars.com will become more and more popular with people rediscovering the old cars, okay so there's no big names (apart from Jeremy Clarkson & Richard Hammond making 'guest appearances'), and there is fewer accidents (when the drivers have to pay for the damage!) but it's great seeing the variety of cars.
I'd like to see a new championship setup for the cars between 1993 and 2000, as that was 'my era' but alas I fear many have been prematurely scrapped in the terribly wasteful scheme, so finding them is harder than you'd imagine.
This is why I think clubs such as the www.classictouringcars.com will become more and more popular with people rediscovering the old cars, okay so there's no big names (apart from Jeremy Clarkson & Richard Hammond making 'guest appearances'), and there is fewer accidents (when the drivers have to pay for the damage!) but it's great seeing the variety of cars.
I'd like to see a new championship setup for the cars between 1993 and 2000, as that was 'my era' but alas I fear many have been prematurely scrapped in the terribly wasteful scheme, so finding them is harder than you'd imagine.
te IMO, compared with the good old days. Would rather watch a good club race meeting with interesting machinery.V8mate said:
havoc said:
We stopped going when your average 'fan' started shouting stuff like "knock him off Plato!". Stopped watching it religiously on TV soon after - about 2 years ago. Not seen any of the races this year.
Proper racing is NOT about making places up by through pushing your way through and using the car as a weapon*...and it's got NOTHING to do with the media circus that Gow, Plato and Neal are desperately turning it into.
Proper racing is NOT about making places up by through pushing your way through and using the car as a weapon*...and it's got NOTHING to do with the media circus that Gow, Plato and Neal are desperately turning it into.
Did you watch the 90s videos in the article?^^
Looked pretty pushy/shovey to me, back then too.
And I suppose that attracts a certain sort of punter, as mentioned.
* By drivers and teams - as mentioned, the indy's don't have huge budgets to keep repairing bodywork.
The problem is the cars have no relationship to the road cars. Homologation requirements have gradually been removed from racing. The Aussie V8 Supercars suffer from the same thing. The platform that sits under Holden and Ford is the same - they are not even the same size as the road cars (I believe the length of the Commodore race car is a bit shorter than the road car). I think the Future Tourer concept is much the same where even the engine doesn't need to represent the manufacturer - it can be one that the series organisers provide.
For enthusiasts like us - the engineering and the homologation requirements are important. For the casual TV viewser of motorsport who is trying to work out whether he watches another game of football or turns onto the motor racing such arcane things are unimportant. At the end of the day there are more of them than us so the powers that be have worked out that giving the cars much the same performance will create close racing and inevitable crashes which is what everyone wants.
When we could buy the car that was sort of the same as the race car it added something to the race. It also meant that through a diversity of solutions different cars had different strengths. Big cars used their brakes and tyres up so the smaller ones came to the fore later in the race. Some cars suited some circuits. This created interesting racing which didn't involve driver behaviour that verges on the criminally insane.
The top drivers in the BTCC make it still worth watching because they are so good. I am an Aussie over here and I watch the BTCC and the V8 Supercars. I think the depth of driving talent in the V8 Supercars is better but that is a function of the fact that the only way an Aussie racing driver can be a professional driver is to be in V8 Supercars. Drivers in Europe have more options so the BTCC isn't attracting a grid full of Platos, Harveys and Sheddons - they are only the top few.
While the FIA and manufacturers are not interested in homologation-based racing I think touring cars will suffer. I think Group A and the requirement to build 5000 cars was silly. The number could be more like 200 - dare I say 4 door Group B cars. Imagine homologation specials of Maserati Quattroportes, Jaguar XFRs, BMW M5s, Porsche Panameras, Vauxhall VXR-8s dicing. It might end up looking a bit like the Italian touring cars but with the better drivers of the BTCC.
For enthusiasts like us - the engineering and the homologation requirements are important. For the casual TV viewser of motorsport who is trying to work out whether he watches another game of football or turns onto the motor racing such arcane things are unimportant. At the end of the day there are more of them than us so the powers that be have worked out that giving the cars much the same performance will create close racing and inevitable crashes which is what everyone wants.
When we could buy the car that was sort of the same as the race car it added something to the race. It also meant that through a diversity of solutions different cars had different strengths. Big cars used their brakes and tyres up so the smaller ones came to the fore later in the race. Some cars suited some circuits. This created interesting racing which didn't involve driver behaviour that verges on the criminally insane.
The top drivers in the BTCC make it still worth watching because they are so good. I am an Aussie over here and I watch the BTCC and the V8 Supercars. I think the depth of driving talent in the V8 Supercars is better but that is a function of the fact that the only way an Aussie racing driver can be a professional driver is to be in V8 Supercars. Drivers in Europe have more options so the BTCC isn't attracting a grid full of Platos, Harveys and Sheddons - they are only the top few.
While the FIA and manufacturers are not interested in homologation-based racing I think touring cars will suffer. I think Group A and the requirement to build 5000 cars was silly. The number could be more like 200 - dare I say 4 door Group B cars. Imagine homologation specials of Maserati Quattroportes, Jaguar XFRs, BMW M5s, Porsche Panameras, Vauxhall VXR-8s dicing. It might end up looking a bit like the Italian touring cars but with the better drivers of the BTCC.
MG CHRIS said:
The cars from mid 90s on have nothing in common with there road going version they just look similar. The reason manafactures went because it was too expensive it become uncontrollable blame the manafactures not the btcc.
The problem was that unlike the M3/RS500 Group A rules, where race parts had to be homologated on road cars, the Class 2 rules were drawn up to be flexible enough to enable any suitable base car to be turned into a competitive race car.Technically, only the shell and engine block/head had to "based" on production components. Everything else was essentially free (barring high tech materials and electronic aids) hence the £250k+ price tags for some of the late 90's cars.
I was reading a technical article the other week about the Volvo 5 cylinder engines and the cylinder heads alone were costing approx £15k to produce!
It was simply not sustainable for a saloon car series.
Riggers = totally with you on on this one mate. Was founder of Club Audi Australia from 95-2001 and we traipsed all over Australia watching and supporting the Aussie SuperTourers - highlight was the 2 years they threatened the V8 Supercars on The Mountain.Was also watching the BTCC series as well somehow (no Sat TV back then! We were intrinsically linked to Audi Australia and also visited BJR (Brad Jones Racing) at Albury to see how the cars were built.
I watch the BTCC highlights on Tuesday now as that is relative to the interest I have in it; dont know the answer but am pretty sure lack of the top 3 or 4 big manufacturers and big name drivers would add to the importance of the event.
I love the V8 supercars but how to get Motors TV without subs to Sky or Virgin - it used to be a free channel but no more...ideas welcome
Another factor is that in Australia, all the big car-related sponsors support motor racing so you see the likes of Bob Janes T-Marts etc all over the place.
I watch the BTCC highlights on Tuesday now as that is relative to the interest I have in it; dont know the answer but am pretty sure lack of the top 3 or 4 big manufacturers and big name drivers would add to the importance of the event.
I love the V8 supercars but how to get Motors TV without subs to Sky or Virgin - it used to be a free channel but no more...ideas welcome
Another factor is that in Australia, all the big car-related sponsors support motor racing so you see the likes of Bob Janes T-Marts etc all over the place.
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