RE: PH Blog: what's the point of BTCC?
Discussion
EDLT said:
But please don't, there are already enough people ignorant of motor-racing-that-isn't-F1 in there.
I would hardly say that I was ignorant of motor sport just because I dont share your view I would also like to point out that I never mentioned I liked f1 having spent a number of years physically involved in touring cars i just feel that you no longer watch the racing and feel you want to then go buy the product on display whereas when you watched the Cosworths of the day you did!. Lets be honest that is why the manufacturers became involved success on the track or in the dirt sold cars I think it is sad when we continually see a citroen that I cannot buy winning at least in the days you could buy a evo or subaru that had similar power to what you watched compete.I hate to sound like an old dinosaur, but i agree that the BTCC (like WRC) has lost its spark. And i think i may know why.
Progress i believe is the culprit.
Bear with me as this may take some explaining, but the reason the BTCC has lost its spark is because the cars are now so sanatised. They all perform the same, look the same, sound the same and behave the same.
Back in the halcyon days of the early 90's, the cars were raw in terms of engineering. They had no aerodynamic packages so each car had a character of its own in terms of handling at the limit. There suspension packaghes were very simple and in the engine bay electronics whilst present were no where near as sophisticated as today. And each car also had a character driving it, the likes of John Cleland, Tim Harvey, Steve (Git) Soper drove the cars in a no-quarter asked style that made each race an adventure. Nowadays the only tow who seem to do that are Jason Plato and Matt neal, and that is because they are relics from the very halcyon days that we are talking about.
How we solve this problem is a mystery to me, because we obviously cant regress (technology wise), but i think as time goes on it will only get worse.
Please dont get me wrong, i am all for progress and beleive that in our everyday world it is very necessary. But i fear that as time goes on we will lose more and more of the very things that made motorsport so unique.
If you dont believe me, ask yourself the question, which sounds better Ford DFV, or the current crop of F1 V8's? Audi Quattro S1 or WRC Ford Fiesta? And then ask yourself what is the difference?
Progress i believe is the culprit.
Bear with me as this may take some explaining, but the reason the BTCC has lost its spark is because the cars are now so sanatised. They all perform the same, look the same, sound the same and behave the same.
Back in the halcyon days of the early 90's, the cars were raw in terms of engineering. They had no aerodynamic packages so each car had a character of its own in terms of handling at the limit. There suspension packaghes were very simple and in the engine bay electronics whilst present were no where near as sophisticated as today. And each car also had a character driving it, the likes of John Cleland, Tim Harvey, Steve (Git) Soper drove the cars in a no-quarter asked style that made each race an adventure. Nowadays the only tow who seem to do that are Jason Plato and Matt neal, and that is because they are relics from the very halcyon days that we are talking about.
How we solve this problem is a mystery to me, because we obviously cant regress (technology wise), but i think as time goes on it will only get worse.
Please dont get me wrong, i am all for progress and beleive that in our everyday world it is very necessary. But i fear that as time goes on we will lose more and more of the very things that made motorsport so unique.
If you dont believe me, ask yourself the question, which sounds better Ford DFV, or the current crop of F1 V8's? Audi Quattro S1 or WRC Ford Fiesta? And then ask yourself what is the difference?
rwindmill said:
I hate to sound like an old dinosaur, but i agree that the BTCC (like WRC) has lost its spark. And i think i may know why.
Progress i believe is the culprit.
Bear with me as this may take some explaining, but the reason the BTCC has lost its spark is because the cars are now so sanatised. They all perform the same, look the same, sound the same and behave the same.
Back in the halcyon days of the early 90's, the cars were raw in terms of engineering. They had no aerodynamic packages so each car had a character of its own in terms of handling at the limit. There suspension packaghes were very simple and in the engine bay electronics whilst present were no where near as sophisticated as today. And each car also had a character driving it, the likes of John Cleland, Tim Harvey, Steve (Git) Soper drove the cars in a no-quarter asked style that made each race an adventure. Nowadays the only tow who seem to do that are Jason Plato and Matt neal, and that is because they are relics from the very halcyon days that we are talking about.
How we solve this problem is a mystery to me, because we obviously cant regress (technology wise), but i think as time goes on it will only get worse.
Please dont get me wrong, i am all for progress and beleive that in our everyday world it is very necessary. But i fear that as time goes on we will lose more and more of the very things that made motorsport so unique.
If you dont believe me, ask yourself the question, which sounds better Ford DFV, or the current crop of F1 V8's? Audi Quattro S1 or WRC Ford Fiesta? And then ask yourself what is the difference?
couldnt agree more.Progress i believe is the culprit.
Bear with me as this may take some explaining, but the reason the BTCC has lost its spark is because the cars are now so sanatised. They all perform the same, look the same, sound the same and behave the same.
Back in the halcyon days of the early 90's, the cars were raw in terms of engineering. They had no aerodynamic packages so each car had a character of its own in terms of handling at the limit. There suspension packaghes were very simple and in the engine bay electronics whilst present were no where near as sophisticated as today. And each car also had a character driving it, the likes of John Cleland, Tim Harvey, Steve (Git) Soper drove the cars in a no-quarter asked style that made each race an adventure. Nowadays the only tow who seem to do that are Jason Plato and Matt neal, and that is because they are relics from the very halcyon days that we are talking about.
How we solve this problem is a mystery to me, because we obviously cant regress (technology wise), but i think as time goes on it will only get worse.
Please dont get me wrong, i am all for progress and beleive that in our everyday world it is very necessary. But i fear that as time goes on we will lose more and more of the very things that made motorsport so unique.
If you dont believe me, ask yourself the question, which sounds better Ford DFV, or the current crop of F1 V8's? Audi Quattro S1 or WRC Ford Fiesta? And then ask yourself what is the difference?
I went to Rockingham this September and I've seen bigger crowds on a wet Sunday at 'Northampton International Raceway' for the national bangers.
I was amazed, genuinely amazed that it was that small a turn out, and also amazed that not more people appreciate Rockingham for being a great circuit from a spectator point of view (that's another topic though)
I think the biggest issue is the coverage. ITV4 FFS, it used to be on a proper TV station, not some afterthought type....
I was amazed, genuinely amazed that it was that small a turn out, and also amazed that not more people appreciate Rockingham for being a great circuit from a spectator point of view (that's another topic though)
I think the biggest issue is the coverage. ITV4 FFS, it used to be on a proper TV station, not some afterthought type....
It’s testament to the racing that I can remember the RS500’s and M3’s. Until I read a couple of messages I didn’t even know which channel BTCC was on. I caught a bit of the WTCC on Sky, god it was dull, Chevrolet Cruze!! Flick over and you’ve got a Holden charging around Bathurst, no contest.
rwindmill said:
I hate to sound like an old dinosaur, but i agree that the BTCC (like WRC) has lost its spark. And i think i may know why.
Progress i believe is the culprit.
Bear with me as this may take some explaining, but the reason the BTCC has lost its spark is because the cars are now so sanatised. They all perform the same, look the same, sound the same and behave the same.
Back in the halcyon days of the early 90's, the cars were raw in terms of engineering. They had no aerodynamic packages so each car had a character of its own in terms of handling at the limit. There suspension packaghes were very simple and in the engine bay electronics whilst present were no where near as sophisticated as today. And each car also had a character driving it, the likes of John Cleland, Tim Harvey, Steve (Git) Soper drove the cars in a no-quarter asked style that made each race an adventure. Nowadays the only tow who seem to do that are Jason Plato and Matt neal, and that is because they are relics from the very halcyon days that we are talking about.
How we solve this problem is a mystery to me, because we obviously cant regress (technology wise), but i think as time goes on it will only get worse.
Please dont get me wrong, i am all for progress and beleive that in our everyday world it is very necessary. But i fear that as time goes on we will lose more and more of the very things that made motorsport so unique.
If you dont believe me, ask yourself the question, which sounds better Ford DFV, or the current crop of F1 V8's? Audi Quattro S1 or WRC Ford Fiesta? And then ask yourself what is the difference?
The current V8s sounds better than a DFV (although the V10s from a few years back sounded the best) and the rally cars all sound awesome.Progress i believe is the culprit.
Bear with me as this may take some explaining, but the reason the BTCC has lost its spark is because the cars are now so sanatised. They all perform the same, look the same, sound the same and behave the same.
Back in the halcyon days of the early 90's, the cars were raw in terms of engineering. They had no aerodynamic packages so each car had a character of its own in terms of handling at the limit. There suspension packaghes were very simple and in the engine bay electronics whilst present were no where near as sophisticated as today. And each car also had a character driving it, the likes of John Cleland, Tim Harvey, Steve (Git) Soper drove the cars in a no-quarter asked style that made each race an adventure. Nowadays the only tow who seem to do that are Jason Plato and Matt neal, and that is because they are relics from the very halcyon days that we are talking about.
How we solve this problem is a mystery to me, because we obviously cant regress (technology wise), but i think as time goes on it will only get worse.
Please dont get me wrong, i am all for progress and beleive that in our everyday world it is very necessary. But i fear that as time goes on we will lose more and more of the very things that made motorsport so unique.
If you dont believe me, ask yourself the question, which sounds better Ford DFV, or the current crop of F1 V8's? Audi Quattro S1 or WRC Ford Fiesta? And then ask yourself what is the difference?
A bit of a stupid article!
Times have changed; kids these days use facebook more than going out, the internet, the general bad attitude to cars.
The fact that the BTCC is as strong as it, with great racing still, is a credit. How many series have gone down the pan?
F1 was dire this year- I know people try to big it up, but seriously it was a yawn fest, and has been average for the last 10 years (I still watch it).
WRC, WTCC, ETCC, GT1,GT3,GT4 are all the sinking and trying there hardest to float.
Its easy to look back with rose tinted glasses, the coverage was often a high light show cramed in on a Sunday, the cars were eye wateringly expensive, and dominated towards the end by 2 brands.
In fact the article is toilet. Sorry.
Give it some support.
Times have changed; kids these days use facebook more than going out, the internet, the general bad attitude to cars.
The fact that the BTCC is as strong as it, with great racing still, is a credit. How many series have gone down the pan?
F1 was dire this year- I know people try to big it up, but seriously it was a yawn fest, and has been average for the last 10 years (I still watch it).
WRC, WTCC, ETCC, GT1,GT3,GT4 are all the sinking and trying there hardest to float.
Its easy to look back with rose tinted glasses, the coverage was often a high light show cramed in on a Sunday, the cars were eye wateringly expensive, and dominated towards the end by 2 brands.
In fact the article is toilet. Sorry.
Give it some support.
The commentator makes up for 50% of the excitement - Murray did an excellent job of this and now he has gone now we are left with boring commentators (IMHO). F1 is the same. I hate the commentary and find it less interesting to watch, and in the previous few years I have lost interest. The ALMS commentators are great for example;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brNtbaMadX4
The cars in the 90's appeared to be driven on the utter limit. Im sure the modern day cars are too, but they do it in a more controlled and presice fassion. Theres a DTM video somewhere by DTMEnthusuast on youtube and the 3 different videos explain this rather well.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DTMEnthusiast
- For those that havent ever seen these videos, compare the "golden years" to the more moden videos he has made.
The noise doesnt cut it now.
I dont think its got boring, just no where near as exciting because of the opinions ive left here. Im sure the cars are faster (Ive not compared lap times) but they just dont appear to be as fast. Compare Group B with modern day equivilents. The modern cars get it done faster, but are obviously not the fire breathing monsters they once were.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brNtbaMadX4
The cars in the 90's appeared to be driven on the utter limit. Im sure the modern day cars are too, but they do it in a more controlled and presice fassion. Theres a DTM video somewhere by DTMEnthusuast on youtube and the 3 different videos explain this rather well.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DTMEnthusiast
- For those that havent ever seen these videos, compare the "golden years" to the more moden videos he has made.
The noise doesnt cut it now.
I dont think its got boring, just no where near as exciting because of the opinions ive left here. Im sure the cars are faster (Ive not compared lap times) but they just dont appear to be as fast. Compare Group B with modern day equivilents. The modern cars get it done faster, but are obviously not the fire breathing monsters they once were.
Being a massive motorsport fan and haveing been to various GP's in various contries nothing beats being at a touring car race in person. cars comming round corners 3 a breast is exiting.
I do agree that the cars have no longer got the same appeal as they did in the past and that the drivers are not as well known.
I remember getting my first ever Playstation 1 and had the BTCC game and played it non stop, can you still get a BTCC video game ?
I do agree that the cars have no longer got the same appeal as they did in the past and that the drivers are not as well known.
I remember getting my first ever Playstation 1 and had the BTCC game and played it non stop, can you still get a BTCC video game ?
Agree there is something lacking with the BTCC still, it's been better this year than it has in a long time but something is missing. I genuinely think it maybe something as simple as the aesthetics of the cars at the moment, something that the NGTC cars will sort out as they look a lot more like purposeful race cars, yet still maintaining the look of something you see on Tesco car park every day. Combine this with getting the cars to spit flames and I think it'll bring a lot of the excitement back to the viewing.
I'm the same as a lot of people in this thread, V8 Supercars are ruling the roost at the moment, mainly thanks to the coverage now shown on Motors It was always a series that interested me, but small write ups in Autosport and still pics on the internet were never enough. The excellent coverage they have now makes it more accessible, and the racing is always close.
I'm the same as a lot of people in this thread, V8 Supercars are ruling the roost at the moment, mainly thanks to the coverage now shown on Motors It was always a series that interested me, but small write ups in Autosport and still pics on the internet were never enough. The excellent coverage they have now makes it more accessible, and the racing is always close.
Motorsport in general just isn't as good as the 90's.
The main problem with BTCC is the lack of star quality. You wouldn't get ex-F1 drivers guesting nowadays and the cars are absolutely dire.
There are promising signs with more cars coming into it but no-one wants to see a Focus and Civic going round a track, they just look crap. Needs more manufacturer support like it did during the Super Touring era but then of course costs will go up and it'll all go tits up again.
The main problem with BTCC is the lack of star quality. You wouldn't get ex-F1 drivers guesting nowadays and the cars are absolutely dire.
There are promising signs with more cars coming into it but no-one wants to see a Focus and Civic going round a track, they just look crap. Needs more manufacturer support like it did during the Super Touring era but then of course costs will go up and it'll all go tits up again.
michaelbell11 said:
Being a massive motorsport fan and haveing been to various GP's in various contries nothing beats being at a touring car race in person. cars comming round corners 3 a breast is exiting.
I do agree that the cars have no longer got the same appeal as they did in the past and that the drivers are not as well known.
I remember getting my first ever Playstation 1 and had the BTCC game and played it non stop, can you still get a BTCC video game ?
TOCA Touring cars?I do agree that the cars have no longer got the same appeal as they did in the past and that the drivers are not as well known.
I remember getting my first ever Playstation 1 and had the BTCC game and played it non stop, can you still get a BTCC video game ?
That was a Codemaster's game, it later evolved into Race Driver:GRID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOCA_Touring_Car_series)
So no, you can't.
The closest now, IMO, is Need For Speed Shift 2 - Unleashed.
I disagree with the view that the BTCC has lost its way.
The racing is probably as good as it ever was in the Cossie or 2-litre supertourer era and you get 3 races a day now with a nicely mixed up grid, so no more 'this year's model' disappearing into the distance every race.
It is a bit lacking in big manufactuer names, but as with most series this only happens for a season or two until the also-rans get sick of being so and withdraw and, whilst Jason Plato and Matt Neal would probably have been stars in any era, some of the other drivers aren't, but then again, drivers like Mike Smith (Radio 1 DJ) and Gerry Mahoney were both winners in Cossies and they were hardly top-class tin-top drivers.
So, it's a bit off it's star turn days, but what isn't? Look at Le Mans (two manufacturers for the last few years), F1 (One driver totally dominated), DTM (a dire series with over-engineered cars that are seemingly forbidden to overtake each other - Hopefully next season will see that improved on), the WRC (a handful of WRC cars and only a tiny smattering of those really competitively driven, but things are looking up there and at least the top cars put on a race over the season) and so on...
The BTCC still sees cars we can all afford to drive being driven door handle to door handle around our local tracks or (with Digital TV) on our TV sets. The crowds still look big (anything else at the national level bring in a quarter of the number of people?) and the racing is good and good value.
The BTCC doesn't need my defence, it stands up and shouts Riggers down every other weekend!
M
The racing is probably as good as it ever was in the Cossie or 2-litre supertourer era and you get 3 races a day now with a nicely mixed up grid, so no more 'this year's model' disappearing into the distance every race.
It is a bit lacking in big manufactuer names, but as with most series this only happens for a season or two until the also-rans get sick of being so and withdraw and, whilst Jason Plato and Matt Neal would probably have been stars in any era, some of the other drivers aren't, but then again, drivers like Mike Smith (Radio 1 DJ) and Gerry Mahoney were both winners in Cossies and they were hardly top-class tin-top drivers.
So, it's a bit off it's star turn days, but what isn't? Look at Le Mans (two manufacturers for the last few years), F1 (One driver totally dominated), DTM (a dire series with over-engineered cars that are seemingly forbidden to overtake each other - Hopefully next season will see that improved on), the WRC (a handful of WRC cars and only a tiny smattering of those really competitively driven, but things are looking up there and at least the top cars put on a race over the season) and so on...
The BTCC still sees cars we can all afford to drive being driven door handle to door handle around our local tracks or (with Digital TV) on our TV sets. The crowds still look big (anything else at the national level bring in a quarter of the number of people?) and the racing is good and good value.
The BTCC doesn't need my defence, it stands up and shouts Riggers down every other weekend!
M
Edited by marcosgt on Thursday 1st December 17:29
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