RE: PH Blog: what's the point of BTCC?
Discussion
Henry Fiddleton said:
Times have changed; kids these days use facebook more than going out, the internet, the general bad attitude to cars.
That really does some up motorsport as a whole, although I would love to be proved wrong, the average age, especially for F1 is increasing, I would be surprised if the average age for BTCC is much less that between 35 and 40, both in terms of TV and trackside audience.Motorsport generally does nothing to encourage the younger generation to follow it regardless of the formula. There is a real danger that it will become a marginalised sport unless more is done to encourage youngesters to follow it. The challenge is convert a percentage of those that play Forza 4, GT5 etc into watching it trackside or on the box.
When you next go to motorsport event look around you for anyone under 25, they will be in the minority.
'John Cleland signals he's going for first place'; that's definately what he was saying Murray!!!
+1 for the 'it was better in the days of barely disguised rep cars, loads of manufacturer teams and paint swapping' (and Alfa 155s trying to leave the atmsphere)
+1 for the 'it was better in the days of barely disguised rep cars, loads of manufacturer teams and paint swapping' (and Alfa 155s trying to leave the atmsphere)
Edited by GGibbo on Thursday 1st December 17:44
Change the commentators. We need:
Someone who knows his BTCC like Tim Harvey.
A cheeky northern monkey like Lee Boardman off Road Wars.
That condescending smug t
t off Come Dine With Me. If he can make that st watchable he can make anything watchable.
Encourage all of the above to swear at will.
Someone who knows his BTCC like Tim Harvey.
A cheeky northern monkey like Lee Boardman off Road Wars.
That condescending smug t
t off Come Dine With Me. If he can make that st watchable he can make anything watchable.Encourage all of the above to swear at will.
I loved the RS500 era - I was a big RS Owner's Club supporter and loved seeing these brutes. I read somewhere that they would outdrag a F3000 car (whether that's true or not, it sounds good!)
Also as a big Ford fan it was frustrating that the original RS Cosworth wasn't quite fast enough to beat the E30 M3!
And let's not forget the Eggenberger/Texaco RS500s in the World Touring Car Championship in 1987 - in a true display of Australian sportsmanship, they banned the first two works RS500s at Bathurst that year so that Peter Brock in a Commodore could win! Arse.
Great times.
Also as a big Ford fan it was frustrating that the original RS Cosworth wasn't quite fast enough to beat the E30 M3!
And let's not forget the Eggenberger/Texaco RS500s in the World Touring Car Championship in 1987 - in a true display of Australian sportsmanship, they banned the first two works RS500s at Bathurst that year so that Peter Brock in a Commodore could win! Arse.
Great times.
I think the problem is technical advancements making things too safe from a handling point of view - reducing the excitement. Motorsport is always going to be better when things are a bit lairy, the car sliding about and the driver having to wrestle the bugger. That's what it's all about isn't it?
Something definitely needs to be changed to make things a little more wayward. I certainly don't want to see dangerous crashes, but I do want to see cars misbehaving a little more.
ETA - One of my favourite F1 moments of recent years was when Hamilton and Raikkonen were fighting it out and trying to stay on the track, towards the end (I think) of the Belgian GP (can't remember what year - 2008?) when it was also wet. I think that was properly exciting and proved that it isn't all just about speed, it's much more about the anticipation and the spectacle of the thing.
Something definitely needs to be changed to make things a little more wayward. I certainly don't want to see dangerous crashes, but I do want to see cars misbehaving a little more.
ETA - One of my favourite F1 moments of recent years was when Hamilton and Raikkonen were fighting it out and trying to stay on the track, towards the end (I think) of the Belgian GP (can't remember what year - 2008?) when it was also wet. I think that was properly exciting and proved that it isn't all just about speed, it's much more about the anticipation and the spectacle of the thing.
Edited by RedWater on Thursday 1st December 17:55
Stu R said:
It has lost a lot of appeal for me, for reasons I'm not sure of. I used to be mad keen on it.
Same applies to WRC.
Yet it's not that I've lost interest in motorsport, these days I'm an adopted fan of NASCAR, IndyCar, still love F1, still love the Aussie V8s, and a few other series.
I'd love to see the big factory names pile a load of cash in and for it to get a slot on a decent TV channel again. The racing itself is still pretty damn good though it must be said.
I'm the same with regard NASCAR, Indycar and the Aussie V8s. Time was I'd never miss a BTCC race on Grandstand, but these days it's all rather "watch it if I happen across it" rather than sitting down to make a point of it, whereas I'll actively seek out live coverage of the others. No idea why exactly, maybe it's just got too petulant and pantomime-like over recent years? Could be rose tinted specs at work I suppose, but it does feel like it's missing that certain something these days.Same applies to WRC.
Yet it's not that I've lost interest in motorsport, these days I'm an adopted fan of NASCAR, IndyCar, still love F1, still love the Aussie V8s, and a few other series.
I'd love to see the big factory names pile a load of cash in and for it to get a slot on a decent TV channel again. The racing itself is still pretty damn good though it must be said.
BTCC lost it's way when it went from being a event with in excess of 10 different manufactures to a competition between 2 sometimes 3.
If you consider 1994 there was
- Renault
- Vauxhall
- Toyota
- Ford
- BMW
- Volvo
- Honda
- Alfa Romeo
- Peugeot
All of which ran factory teams, plus there were independents to.
Fast forward to 2011 and there is
- Chevrolet
- Honda
- Ford
If you consider 1994 there was
- Renault
- Vauxhall
- Toyota
- Ford
- BMW
- Volvo
- Honda
- Alfa Romeo
- Peugeot
All of which ran factory teams, plus there were independents to.
Fast forward to 2011 and there is
- Chevrolet
- Honda
- Ford
rwindmill said:
I hate to sound like an old dinosaur, but i agree that the BTCC (like WRC) has lost its spark. And i think i may know why.
Progress i believe is the culprit.
Bear with me as this may take some explaining, but the reason the BTCC has lost its spark is because the cars are now so sanatised. They all perform the same, look the same, sound the same and behave the same.
A bit like in the glory days where half the grid used Sierras?Progress i believe is the culprit.
Bear with me as this may take some explaining, but the reason the BTCC has lost its spark is because the cars are now so sanatised. They all perform the same, look the same, sound the same and behave the same.
rwindmill said:
Back in the halcyon days of the early 90's, the cars were raw in terms of engineering. They had no aerodynamic packages so each car had a character of its own in terms of handling at the limit. There suspension packaghes were very simple and in the engine bay electronics whilst present were no where near as sophisticated as today.
Did you even watch the BTCC back then? Have you forgotten Alfa Romeo's dodgey aerodynamic package that they claimed was a standard part on a road car (it was in the boot). The cars were hideously complicated and expensive too, the suspension and engine and electrical systems shared as much with the road cars as next year's Caterham F1. Then as more and more money was poured in we ended up with the Lagunas that had an interesting statistic which went something like this:Jason Plato's pole time at Silverstone in 1998 would have put him fourth on the 2004 British GT grid. A 2-litre FWD Saloon. Fourth.
rwindmill said:
And each car also had a character driving it, the likes of John Cleland, Tim Harvey, Steve (Git) Soper drove the cars in a no-quarter asked style that made each race an adventure. Nowadays the only tow who seem to do that are Jason Plato and Matt neal, and that is because they are relics from the very halcyon days that we are talking about.
How we solve this problem is a mystery to me, because we obviously cant regress (technology wise), but i think as time goes on it will only get worse.
Please dont get me wrong, i am all for progress and beleive that in our everyday world it is very necessary. But i fear that as time goes on we will lose more and more of the very things that made motorsport so unique.
Name a series where the racers haven't become more corporate.How we solve this problem is a mystery to me, because we obviously cant regress (technology wise), but i think as time goes on it will only get worse.
Please dont get me wrong, i am all for progress and beleive that in our everyday world it is very necessary. But i fear that as time goes on we will lose more and more of the very things that made motorsport so unique.
rwindmill said:
If you dont believe me, ask yourself the question, which sounds better Ford DFV, or the current crop of F1 V8's? Audi Quattro S1 or WRC Ford Fiesta? And then ask yourself what is the difference?
To me, a DFV sounds like a racing V8 that could be in anything (and it was!) whereas an F1 V8 could only be an F1 car. The same could be applied to the Audi's 5-pot against what is one of many four cylinder racing engines. So which sounds better, a Fiesta WRC or a Lancia Delta Integrale? Er...It seems simply to me, that old motor racing phrase of "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" is what it needs to get back to...
Lets make the rules simple
Take the top hot hatches from each manufacturer, Focus RS, Vauxhall Astra VXR etc allow the fitment of a safety cage, allow them to strip out the interior and some stickers to the outside and some racing tyres. And thats it standard suspension, standard engine, standard wheels.
And just for fun lets add a mixed grid, same rules for BMW's M3, Audi's RS4 etc and thats it.
Might make the road versions of the cars a bit hardcore but they will make excellent track day machines.
Lets make the rules simple
Take the top hot hatches from each manufacturer, Focus RS, Vauxhall Astra VXR etc allow the fitment of a safety cage, allow them to strip out the interior and some stickers to the outside and some racing tyres. And thats it standard suspension, standard engine, standard wheels.
And just for fun lets add a mixed grid, same rules for BMW's M3, Audi's RS4 etc and thats it.
Might make the road versions of the cars a bit hardcore but they will make excellent track day machines.
BrentN said:
It seems simply to me, that old motor racing phrase of "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" is what it needs to get back to...
Lets make the rules simple
Take the top hot hatches from each manufacturer, Focus RS, Vauxhall Astra VXR etc allow the fitment of a safety cage, allow them to strip out the interior and some stickers to the outside and some racing tyres. And thats it standard suspension, standard engine, standard wheels.
And just for fun lets add a mixed grid, same rules for BMW's M3, Audi's RS4 etc and thats it.
Might make the road versions of the cars a bit hardcore but they will make excellent track day machines.
Somebody would work out which is the fastest then everybody would use that. Ever noticed how many Porsches are in GT racing despite other cars being available?Lets make the rules simple
Take the top hot hatches from each manufacturer, Focus RS, Vauxhall Astra VXR etc allow the fitment of a safety cage, allow them to strip out the interior and some stickers to the outside and some racing tyres. And thats it standard suspension, standard engine, standard wheels.
And just for fun lets add a mixed grid, same rules for BMW's M3, Audi's RS4 etc and thats it.
Might make the road versions of the cars a bit hardcore but they will make excellent track day machines.
BrentN said:
It seems simply to me, that old motor racing phrase of "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" is what it needs to get back to...
Lets make the rules simple
Take the top hot hatches from each manufacturer, Focus RS, Vauxhall Astra VXR etc allow the fitment of a safety cage, allow them to strip out the interior and some stickers to the outside and some racing tyres. And thats it standard suspension, standard engine, standard wheels.
And just for fun lets add a mixed grid, same rules for BMW's M3, Audi's RS4 etc and thats it.
Might make the road versions of the cars a bit hardcore but they will make excellent track day machines.
Isnt this known as,er, homologation? Lets make the rules simple
Take the top hot hatches from each manufacturer, Focus RS, Vauxhall Astra VXR etc allow the fitment of a safety cage, allow them to strip out the interior and some stickers to the outside and some racing tyres. And thats it standard suspension, standard engine, standard wheels.
And just for fun lets add a mixed grid, same rules for BMW's M3, Audi's RS4 etc and thats it.
Might make the road versions of the cars a bit hardcore but they will make excellent track day machines.
It's the driver quality that does it for me. I want to watch the likes of Yvan Muller, James Thompson, Fabrizio Giovanardi, Gabriele Tarquini etc. Along with the rising British stars like Colin Turkington, Rob Huff, Mat Jackson, Gordon Shedden and so on. You just don't get that star quality anymore, even the good guys from the support series struggle to progress into it, such is the demand for money for a drive.
I used to religiously follow the series round the circuits from 2001-2009, but that enthusiasm has waned. All this engineered rivalry between Plato and Neal, the turbo debate, dodgy driving standards and the way it's hyped up by the press and promotors to be some sort of pro-stock car championship has dampened my spirits.
I used to religiously follow the series round the circuits from 2001-2009, but that enthusiasm has waned. All this engineered rivalry between Plato and Neal, the turbo debate, dodgy driving standards and the way it's hyped up by the press and promotors to be some sort of pro-stock car championship has dampened my spirits.
We stopped going when your average 'fan' started shouting stuff like "knock him off Plato!". Stopped watching it religiously on TV soon after - about 2 years ago. Not seen any of the races this year.
Proper racing is NOT about making places up by through pushing your way through and using the car as a weapon*...and it's got NOTHING to do with the media circus that Gow, Plato and Neal are desperately turning it into.
* Which favours the big-budget teams over the indies, who can't afford to replace/repair several body-panels each event.
Proper racing is NOT about making places up by through pushing your way through and using the car as a weapon*...and it's got NOTHING to do with the media circus that Gow, Plato and Neal are desperately turning it into.
* Which favours the big-budget teams over the indies, who can't afford to replace/repair several body-panels each event.
What a surprise another thread on ph banging on about btcc. I really can't be arsed to explain myself again because it's so boring. But all i will say is when full ngtc rules take over will be a even better than it is now.
Ph is this the best you can do what a non story.
Atleast say something positive about it like the new 3 year MG works deal to be in the btcc from next year onwards and the biggest grid at silverstone since the 2.0 litre era begun.
But no usual ph mentality its rubbish was better in my day bla, bla, bla.
Ph is this the best you can do what a non story.
Atleast say something positive about it like the new 3 year MG works deal to be in the btcc from next year onwards and the biggest grid at silverstone since the 2.0 litre era begun.
But no usual ph mentality its rubbish was better in my day bla, bla, bla.
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