RE: PH Blog: what's the point of BTCC?
Discussion
I dont bother watching BTCC these days.
I used to go to at least half a dozen rounds a year until around 1998 or so, the rest I could catch highlights of on the TV, I was defnitely a big fan, even went to a couple of media days
It's hard for me to quantify why I dont find it interesting any more, but I think it is a combination of the factors others have mentioned :
Dull cars
Minimal manufacturer teams
Lack of 'big name' drivers, and more importantly 'personalities' (Plato and Neal constantly whining doesnt constitute this)
Shocking standards of driving
Now I really liked the btcc in the early 90s, and the vast majority of cars were similarly powered FWD repmobiles, so I dont know why I find the current crop of cars unappealing. Perhaps it is that they have become so competent, in terms of handling etc, that it all looks very neat and tidy with seemingly little correction needed (i know this isnt the case, that the fast drivers are doing a great job etc but it looks that way)The rot for me started in 1995 when they added aero kits, it made the cars too stable.
The late 80's were exciting to me even with only the sierras being race winners because the cars were so much more spectacular. Crap chassis with 500+ hp meant they were good to watch, and took some skill to drive at 9 / 10 tenths
It would be great to go back to the days of 92, 93 94 where you had loads of manufacturers involved, but I know this wont happen, especially in the current climate.
I havent seen this seasons racing, so if the driving standards have improved then fair enough. But the last few years has a LOT more incidents where the driver following just punted the car ahead off, with seemingly no penalty ever being given. I know you can find clips from the 90's of incidents, such as cleland / soper in 92, but it didnt seem to be so blatant as it became. Perhaps I am wrong here though.
I dont mean this to sound like an old git moan, but thats how it reads I suppose
I used to go to at least half a dozen rounds a year until around 1998 or so, the rest I could catch highlights of on the TV, I was defnitely a big fan, even went to a couple of media days
It's hard for me to quantify why I dont find it interesting any more, but I think it is a combination of the factors others have mentioned :
Dull cars
Minimal manufacturer teams
Lack of 'big name' drivers, and more importantly 'personalities' (Plato and Neal constantly whining doesnt constitute this)
Shocking standards of driving
Now I really liked the btcc in the early 90s, and the vast majority of cars were similarly powered FWD repmobiles, so I dont know why I find the current crop of cars unappealing. Perhaps it is that they have become so competent, in terms of handling etc, that it all looks very neat and tidy with seemingly little correction needed (i know this isnt the case, that the fast drivers are doing a great job etc but it looks that way)The rot for me started in 1995 when they added aero kits, it made the cars too stable.
The late 80's were exciting to me even with only the sierras being race winners because the cars were so much more spectacular. Crap chassis with 500+ hp meant they were good to watch, and took some skill to drive at 9 / 10 tenths
It would be great to go back to the days of 92, 93 94 where you had loads of manufacturers involved, but I know this wont happen, especially in the current climate.
I havent seen this seasons racing, so if the driving standards have improved then fair enough. But the last few years has a LOT more incidents where the driver following just punted the car ahead off, with seemingly no penalty ever being given. I know you can find clips from the 90's of incidents, such as cleland / soper in 92, but it didnt seem to be so blatant as it became. Perhaps I am wrong here though.
I dont mean this to sound like an old git moan, but thats how it reads I suppose
EDLT said:
Somebody would work out which is the fastest then everybody would use that. Ever noticed how many Porsches are in GT racing despite other cars being available?
Yep, private teams would use the fastest ones so would give the manufacturers extra incentive to make the best car. And the factory teams would obv. have to use the appropriate vehicleCan someone tell me why a manufacturer showing up on a whim, throwing millions at a team and pricing out independents then dumping the whole thing as soon as an accountant on the other side of the world says "No" is a good thing? Because that is the story of big companies in motor racing since the sport began.
EDIT:
No they wouldn't. Manufacturers would not make a car at all unless they were in the sport and they will not enter a sport where they had to build special car first.
This leads me on to another question: What is the fascination with homologation specials? You all realise that they effectively killed the sports that allowed them (see rallying and touring cars) as soon as the accountant from a big company decided it was all a bit silly (see above).
EDIT:
BrentN said:
EDLT said:
Somebody would work out which is the fastest then everybody would use that. Ever noticed how many Porsches are in GT racing despite other cars being available?
Yep, private teams would use the fastest ones so would give the manufacturers extra incentive to make the best car. And the factory teams would obv. have to use the appropriate vehicleThis leads me on to another question: What is the fascination with homologation specials? You all realise that they effectively killed the sports that allowed them (see rallying and touring cars) as soon as the accountant from a big company decided it was all a bit silly (see above).
Edited by EDLT on Thursday 1st December 18:44
Henry Fiddleton said:
A bit of a stupid article!
Times have changed; kids these days use facebook more than going out, the internet, the general bad attitude to cars.
The fact that the BTCC is as strong as it, with great racing still, is a credit. How many series have gone down the pan?
F1 was dire this year- I know people try to big it up, but seriously it was a yawn fest, and has been average for the last 10 years (I still watch it).
WRC, WTCC, ETCC, GT1,GT3,GT4 are all the sinking and trying there hardest to float.
Its easy to look back with rose tinted glasses, the coverage was often a high light show cramed in on a Sunday, the cars were eye wateringly expensive, and dominated towards the end by 2 brands.
In fact the article is toilet. Sorry.
Give it some support.
This^Times have changed; kids these days use facebook more than going out, the internet, the general bad attitude to cars.
The fact that the BTCC is as strong as it, with great racing still, is a credit. How many series have gone down the pan?
F1 was dire this year- I know people try to big it up, but seriously it was a yawn fest, and has been average for the last 10 years (I still watch it).
WRC, WTCC, ETCC, GT1,GT3,GT4 are all the sinking and trying there hardest to float.
Its easy to look back with rose tinted glasses, the coverage was often a high light show cramed in on a Sunday, the cars were eye wateringly expensive, and dominated towards the end by 2 brands.
In fact the article is toilet. Sorry.
Give it some support.
Must be a slow-news day.
Things-were-better-in-the-past shocka
EDLT said:
Can someone tell me why a manufacturer showing up on a whim, throwing millions at a team and pricing out independents then dumping the whole thing as soon as an accountant on the other side of the world says "No" is a good thing? Because that is the story of big companies in motor racing since the sport began.
EDIT:
No they wouldn't. Manufacturers would not make a car at all unless they were in the sport and they will not enter a sport where they had to build special car first.
This leads me on to another question: What is the fascination with homologation specials? You all realise that they effectively killed the sports that allowed them (see rallying and touring cars) as soon as the accountant from a big company decided it was all a bit silly (see above).
+1EDIT:
BrentN said:
EDLT said:
Somebody would work out which is the fastest then everybody would use that. Ever noticed how many Porsches are in GT racing despite other cars being available?
Yep, private teams would use the fastest ones so would give the manufacturers extra incentive to make the best car. And the factory teams would obv. have to use the appropriate vehicleThis leads me on to another question: What is the fascination with homologation specials? You all realise that they effectively killed the sports that allowed them (see rallying and touring cars) as soon as the accountant from a big company decided it was all a bit silly (see above).
Edited by EDLT on Thursday 1st December 18:44
Don't people forget that the manafactures killed the btcc during the end of the 90s or have people forgot about that and only see the good year. 99-00 had at most 15 cars on the grid only 3 manafactures in 00 but very few independent could afford to run a btcc car at the time. One more thing the btcc cars from mid 90s on have nothing in common to its road going version remember the volvo estate the roof was 3 inches lower than the road car, really touring cars i don't think so.
Flawless Victory said:
Henry Fiddleton said:
A bit of a stupid article!
Times have changed; kids these days use facebook more than going out, the internet, the general bad attitude to cars.
The fact that the BTCC is as strong as it, with great racing still, is a credit. How many series have gone down the pan?
F1 was dire this year- I know people try to big it up, but seriously it was a yawn fest, and has been average for the last 10 years (I still watch it).
WRC, WTCC, ETCC, GT1,GT3,GT4 are all the sinking and trying there hardest to float.
Its easy to look back with rose tinted glasses, the coverage was often a high light show cramed in on a Sunday, the cars were eye wateringly expensive, and dominated towards the end by 2 brands.
In fact the article is toilet. Sorry.
Give it some support.
This^Times have changed; kids these days use facebook more than going out, the internet, the general bad attitude to cars.
The fact that the BTCC is as strong as it, with great racing still, is a credit. How many series have gone down the pan?
F1 was dire this year- I know people try to big it up, but seriously it was a yawn fest, and has been average for the last 10 years (I still watch it).
WRC, WTCC, ETCC, GT1,GT3,GT4 are all the sinking and trying there hardest to float.
Its easy to look back with rose tinted glasses, the coverage was often a high light show cramed in on a Sunday, the cars were eye wateringly expensive, and dominated towards the end by 2 brands.
In fact the article is toilet. Sorry.
Give it some support.
Must be a slow-news day.
Things-were-better-in-the-past shocka
It is, however, how I feel about the BTCC personally and at the moment. But I'm more than happy to have my perceptions changed by constructive argument.
Which brings me on to:
marcosgt said:
I disagree with the view that the BTCC has lost its way.
The racing is probably as good as it ever was in the Cossie or 2-litre supertourer era and you get 3 races a day now with a nicely mixed up grid, so no more 'this year's model' disappearing into the distance every race.
It is a bit lacking in big manufactuer names, but as with most series this only happens for a season or two until the also-rans get sick of being so and withdraw and, whilst Jason Plato and Matt Neal would probably have been stars in any era, some of the other drivers aren't, but then again, drivers like Mike Smith (Radio 1 DJ) and Gerry Mahoney were both winners in Cossies and they were hardly top-class tin-top drivers.
So, it's a bit off it's star turn days, but what isn't? Look at Le Mans (two manufacturers for the last few years), F1 (One driver totally dominated), DTM (a dire series with over-engineered cars that are seemingly forbidden to overtake each other - Hopefully next season will see that improved on), the WRC (a handful of WRC cars and only a tiny smattering of those really competitively driven, but things are looking up there and at least the top cars put on a race over the season) and so on...
The BTCC still sees cars we can all afford to drive being driven door handle to door handle around our local tracks or (with Digital TV) on our TV sets. The crowds still look big (anything else at the national level bring in a quarter of the number of people?) and the racing is good and good value.
The BTCC doesn't need my defence, it stands up and shouts Riggers down every other weekend!
M
You make some fine points. Perhaps I shall give it another chance next season and will have to readdress my BTCC grumpiness... here's hoping The racing is probably as good as it ever was in the Cossie or 2-litre supertourer era and you get 3 races a day now with a nicely mixed up grid, so no more 'this year's model' disappearing into the distance every race.
It is a bit lacking in big manufactuer names, but as with most series this only happens for a season or two until the also-rans get sick of being so and withdraw and, whilst Jason Plato and Matt Neal would probably have been stars in any era, some of the other drivers aren't, but then again, drivers like Mike Smith (Radio 1 DJ) and Gerry Mahoney were both winners in Cossies and they were hardly top-class tin-top drivers.
So, it's a bit off it's star turn days, but what isn't? Look at Le Mans (two manufacturers for the last few years), F1 (One driver totally dominated), DTM (a dire series with over-engineered cars that are seemingly forbidden to overtake each other - Hopefully next season will see that improved on), the WRC (a handful of WRC cars and only a tiny smattering of those really competitively driven, but things are looking up there and at least the top cars put on a race over the season) and so on...
The BTCC still sees cars we can all afford to drive being driven door handle to door handle around our local tracks or (with Digital TV) on our TV sets. The crowds still look big (anything else at the national level bring in a quarter of the number of people?) and the racing is good and good value.
The BTCC doesn't need my defence, it stands up and shouts Riggers down every other weekend!
M
Edited by marcosgt on Thursday 1st December 17:29
aka_kerrly said:
BTCC lost it's way when it went from being a event with in excess of 10 different manufactures to a competition between 2 sometimes 3.
If you consider 1994 there was
- Renault
- Vauxhall
- Toyota
- Ford
- BMW
- Volvo
- Honda
- Alfa Romeo
- Peugeot
All of which ran factory teams, plus there were independents to.
Fast forward to 2011 and there is
- Chevrolet
- Honda
- Ford
Manufacturer teams weren't that prevalent in the late 80s when the golden era of the RS500s and M3s saw spectacular racing.If you consider 1994 there was
- Renault
- Vauxhall
- Toyota
- Ford
- BMW
- Volvo
- Honda
- Alfa Romeo
- Peugeot
All of which ran factory teams, plus there were independents to.
Fast forward to 2011 and there is
- Chevrolet
- Honda
- Ford
There was a record number of different marques and models on the grid at the season finale this year.
MG CHRIS said:
Atleast say something positive about it like the new 3 year MG works deal to be in the btcc from next year onwards and the biggest grid at silverstone since the 2.0 litre era begun.
Something positive like this you mean?Record grid revealed for 2011 BTCC
I'm not always negative
For me it seems quite clear why btcc and wrc is less exciting at the moment
I dont want to say 'years ago' but anyway......years ago race cars had more power than they do now and road cars had less power than then do now. Watching racing was far more exciting, looking at drivers wrestle to tame those big power monsters was fascinating. Tyres also provided less grip so even more spectacular.
Today we have less power than road going cars. Watching a btcc driver today struggle to transmit a mighty 300bhp to the tarmac using tonnes of grip from better tyres doesnt really do it, considering there was a time when you had to make do with barely 200bhp on the road and could then go to see a 550bhp sierra tear up the track. It was amazing stuff
You know something isnt quite right when Mclaren have to DETUNE their 12c road car to make their race car
Really I cannot believe it.
big power = big top speed, so maybe that is too dangerous even with the massive safety improvements. But what about big power and gearing so that the top speed is only 140. That spells fun
Australian V8 Supercars still works well,..................oh yeah they have big power
I dont want to say 'years ago' but anyway......years ago race cars had more power than they do now and road cars had less power than then do now. Watching racing was far more exciting, looking at drivers wrestle to tame those big power monsters was fascinating. Tyres also provided less grip so even more spectacular.
Today we have less power than road going cars. Watching a btcc driver today struggle to transmit a mighty 300bhp to the tarmac using tonnes of grip from better tyres doesnt really do it, considering there was a time when you had to make do with barely 200bhp on the road and could then go to see a 550bhp sierra tear up the track. It was amazing stuff
You know something isnt quite right when Mclaren have to DETUNE their 12c road car to make their race car
Really I cannot believe it.
big power = big top speed, so maybe that is too dangerous even with the massive safety improvements. But what about big power and gearing so that the top speed is only 140. That spells fun
Australian V8 Supercars still works well,..................oh yeah they have big power
s m said:
Roop said:
OllieC said:
marcosgt said:
drivers like Mike Smith (Radio 1 DJ) and Gerry Mahoney were both winners in Cossies and they were hardly top-class tin-top drivers.
I dunno, I would say Mahoney was a 'Class A' driver
Not lost M
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