RE: Supra and MR2 could return, says Toyota
Discussion
Zircon said:
Out of interest - what reason do you give for putting the Mk2 Turbo under the Mk2 N/A? I have owned both engines in the same MK2 car and the Turbo is in a totally different league.
One of my pet hates is poor throttle response. Same with the VX220 - - I'd take the N/A over the turbo, despite it obviously being much slower. Turbos are fine for wafting around in, when the huge low-rev torque is nice, but they're rubbish for anything that you intend to drive hard, IMO. There is no such thing as a turbocharger without turbo lag (unless it has an anti-lag system which is illegal on the public road). Even fuel injection is a compromise in this regard, in my experience.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 7th December 10:21
Wadeski said:
the best description of the mk3 was earlier on this thread - like a 911 with a 1.1L engine in it.
its just embarrassingly slow for a sportscar of its age. There is no noticeable acceleration, just noise.
I thought the earlier comparison of the Turbo as being like a junior 911 Turbo was quite apt. Great turn of pace, beautiful balance and handling and very comfortable too!its just embarrassingly slow for a sportscar of its age. There is no noticeable acceleration, just noise.
Not sure what the concerns about throttle response here is, though. The MR2 Turbo has a pin-sharp throttle response. Easily as sharp as the MX5 I had at the start of this year. A slow throttle would be the one onthe Volvo S60 I owned in between, in which opening the throttle for a blip on a downshift was a lengthy exercise! No, I am very impressed with Toyota's effort at giving the Turbo model a sharp and lively throttle. If you haven't tried it, go and find a standard one and try it.
I'm not so sure about all the modders who get the Turbo models and crank the boost up though. You'd surely lose that wonderfully progressive boost it provides. Thats what makes it so driveable when you're looking to drive it hard, because you can squeeze the boost on and off by adjusting the pressure of your right foot. As said though, the Turbo will demand more of you than the gentle and benign mk3. You don't want to lift off or push too hard at the wrong moment in the Turbo!
kambites said:
One of my pet hates is poor throttle response. Same with the VX220 - - I'd take the N/A over the turbo, despite it obviously being much slower. Turbos are fine for wafting around in, when the huge low-rev torque is nice, but they're rubbish for anything that you intend to drive hard, IMO.
There is no such thing as a turbocharger without turbo lag (unless it has an anti-lag system which is illegal on the public road). Even fuel injection is a compromise in this regard, in my experience.
In any spirited driving jaunt you wouldn't normally drop down low in revs would you? If you keep around 3000 rpm then this is right in Turbo spool territory meaning the turbo input is instant. Same goes for the N/A - if you drove that below 2500rpm it took time to pick up so you change your driving style to suit the revs that the engine responds best to.There is no such thing as a turbocharger without turbo lag (unless it has an anti-lag system which is illegal on the public road). Even fuel injection is a compromise in this regard, in my experience.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 7th December 10:21
I have read for years a load of guff about turbo lag, but if you drive the car properly there is virtually no lag.
Another personal favourite of mine is that 'if you even touch the accelerator of a Turbo MR2 on a corner you will spin off out of control into a field'. Creases me up every time!
Zircon said:
In any spirited driving jaunt you wouldn't normally drop down low in revs would you? If you keep around 3000 rpm then this is right in Turbo spool territory meaning the turbo input is instant. Same goes for the N/A - if you drove that below 2500rpm it took time to pick up so you change your driving style to suit the revs that the engine responds best to.
I have read for years a load of guff about turbo lag, but if you drive the car properly there is virtually no lag.
I have read for years a load of guff about turbo lag, but if you drive the car properly there is virtually no lag.
I was talking about lag, not boost threshold. I couldn't care less if the engine develops no power at low revs because I never let it get there when I'm trying to drive relatively fast.Turbo input going from off throttle to on throttle can only be instant if you have a time machine built into your engine (well, or an anti-lag system, but they're illegal on road cars). The throttle butterfly has got to open fully and the injectors fire up (this is of course the same in a non-turbocharged engine), then you need almost a full turn of the engine before the exhaust valve opens, then you need to pressurise all of the air in the exhaust manifold, then you've got to overcome the inertia of the turbine itself, then you have to pump enough air into the intake manifold to build the pressure, then wait for the intake valve to open again,... this all has to happen several times as a feed-back loop before the turbo is generating full boost and that takes quite a long time.
Of course you can drive around it by opening the throttle half a second before you actually want the power, but I really don't want to have to. I'd rather have two thirds of the power and proper throttle response, personally.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 7th December 14:59
Fair enough, the Turbo isn't an absolutely instantaneous thing, but I honestly don't notice a lag problem with the CT20 turbocharger. As I said, I used to have the Revision 2 3SGE engine but the Revision 3 3SGTE I now have doesn't noticeably take any longer to pull from the moment I touch the pedal.....
Zircon said:
Fair enough, the Turbo isn't an absolutely instantaneous thing, but I honestly don't notice a lag problem with the CT20 turbocharger. As I said, I used to have the Revision 2 3SGE engine but the Revision 3 3SGTE I now have doesn't noticeably take any longer to pull from the moment I touch the pedal.....
No, some people don't seem to notice it. I've never understood how anyone can miss it though, it feels absolutely awful to me. Baryonyx said:
Wadeski said:
the best description of the mk3 was earlier on this thread - like a 911 with a 1.1L engine in it.
its just embarrassingly slow for a sportscar of its age. There is no noticeable acceleration, just noise.
I thought the earlier comparison of the Turbo as being like a junior 911 Turbo was quite apt. Great turn of pace, beautiful balance and handling and very comfortable too!its just embarrassingly slow for a sportscar of its age. There is no noticeable acceleration, just noise.
Not sure what the concerns about throttle response here is, though. The MR2 Turbo has a pin-sharp throttle response. Easily as sharp as the MX5 I had at the start of this year. A slow throttle would be the one onthe Volvo S60 I owned in between, in which opening the throttle for a blip on a downshift was a lengthy exercise! No, I am very impressed with Toyota's effort at giving the Turbo model a sharp and lively throttle. If you haven't tried it, go and find a standard one and try it.
I'm not so sure about all the modders who get the Turbo models and crank the boost up though. You'd surely lose that wonderfully progressive boost it provides. Thats what makes it so driveable when you're looking to drive it hard, because you can squeeze the boost on and off by adjusting the pressure of your right foot. As said though, the Turbo will demand more of you than the gentle and benign mk3. You don't want to lift off or push too hard at the wrong moment in the Turbo!
throttle response is more about the delay between flooring the throttle, and the full power being achieved, at a given engine speed. On most NA cars this is instant. On most turbo cars, particularly older ones, this is quite slow, as the turbo has to spin up from almost stationary (at no throttle) to full speed (at full throttle)
Well, surely you'll be driving, and therefore the engine should be at the ideal rpm, etc for that condition. On a pootle the turbo will rarely be whooshing behind your ears, and you'll just plod along,mute sedately. On a hoon you'll be using the rpm far higher up the range, and throttle response will be applicable for how you are driving. That was how I drove anyway. You get to kow the engine you have, and drive accordingly. Meh.
Gaz. said:
That's how you define a GT? A Vauxhall Vectra TDI also fits that discription.
The mk2 is a hell of a lot closer in spirit (and size) to a mk1 than it'll ever be to a Supra or a pukka GT like a 550M, Corvette or SL.
Oh, you're in foible now. Don't you know the MK2 is a massive behemoth, not deserving of praise! The mk2 is a hell of a lot closer in spirit (and size) to a mk1 than it'll ever be to a Supra or a pukka GT like a 550M, Corvette or SL.
TheHeretic said:
Well, surely you'll be driving, and therefore the engine should be at the ideal rpm, etc for that condition. On a pootle the turbo will rarely be whooshing behind your ears, and you'll just plod along,mute sedately. On a hoon you'll be using the rpm far higher up the range, and throttle response will be applicable for how you are driving. That was how I drove anyway. You get to kow the engine you have, and drive accordingly. Meh.
RPM has nothing to do with turbo lag! kambites said:
RPM has nothing to do with turbo lag!
I know. I've driven a few turbo cars. Just trying to describe that you drive according to how the engine reacts. Going I to long boring explanations about the turbo spooling, etc, gets dull. Drive in hoon mode, and turbo lag does not seem to overly be an issue. When not hooning, it doesn't matter one jot. TheHeretic said:
kambites said:
RPM has nothing to do with turbo lag!
I know. I've driven a few turbo cars. Just trying to describe that you drive according to how the engine reacts. Going I to long boring explanations about the turbo spooling, etc, gets dull. Drive in hoon mode, and turbo lag does not seem to overly be an issue. When not hooning, it doesn't matter one jot. kambites said:
I didn't even know there was an auto available in the MR2.
The 'orrible sequential tiptronic type thing, with the lag that had. Now that was a massive annoyance. Never did get used to it in the few weeks I was driving it. (There was an awful auto version in the MK2 with the crappy engine, and it was like having something that was 4 weeks behind you)
Gaz. said:
That's how you define a GT? A Vauxhall Vectra TDI also fits that discription.
The mk2 is a hell of a lot closer in spirit (and size) to a mk1 than it'll ever be to a Supra or a pukka GT like a 550M, Corvette or SL.
Aaah Ok, I see where I am going wrong. The mk2 is a hell of a lot closer in spirit (and size) to a mk1 than it'll ever be to a Supra or a pukka GT like a 550M, Corvette or SL.
What I should have said is that the Mk2 is more like a GT car when compared to the Mk1 / 3 due to the additional weight it carries over the other MR2 variants. When compared to other cars like Supra's which are true GT cars then yes it is a sports car.....
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