RE: Supra and MR2 could return, says Toyota
Discussion
Oh dear, once again, enthusiasm for the SW20 brings out the vitriol of the haters. Why can't people accept that all three flavours of MR2 have their merits. Yes the MK1 and MK3 are more nimble than the MK2 and are a more delicate steer. The MK3 is a brilliant little roadster, but almost because of that deserved more power, and the MK1 was a bit of a revelation at its launch and has become an 80's icon.
But the MK2 has a broader appeal. why? Well I think its because there's nothing else out there that combines such impressive straightline performance, mid engined layout and the kind of aesthetics that most of us who grew up in the 80's/90's asociate with Italian exotica for just a couple of grand.
I love my MK2 Turbo, I've had the thing for 6 years because its so hard to replace. Honda S2000 - too slow, Esprit - too fragile, Boxster - not sold on the looks, NSX - too expensive.
I know my car has its flaws, the ride is too harsh being the main one, but thats my fault for fitting coilovers, and thanks to the state of UK roads, there are stretches of tarmac I can cover just as quickly in my diesel 306! I really don't care that the steering isn't as communicative as that of its older and younger siblings, and whilst the MK2 has lashings of grip, I realise it lacks the adjustability of the MK1 and MK3.... not an issue. Because for 5 years my MR2 Turbo got me from Norfolk to Somerset and back every weekend and had me grinning from ear to ear. Whether I was gripping the steering wheel for dear life negotiating the bumpiest of Cambridgeshire's fen roads in an icy blizzard, or dicing with a Ferrari 550 on a deserted M11 in the wee small hours of a Monday morning, it had exactly what it takes to make every journey an event.
During these jaunts I would often cross paths with MK1 and MK3 drivers, and was almost always greeted with a wave or a flash of lights. As I'm sure that like me they could appreciate all MR2s for their respective strengths and weaknesses. Each car was a product of its time and offered mid-engined motoring to the working man, lets just be grateful for that.
But the MK2 has a broader appeal. why? Well I think its because there's nothing else out there that combines such impressive straightline performance, mid engined layout and the kind of aesthetics that most of us who grew up in the 80's/90's asociate with Italian exotica for just a couple of grand.
I love my MK2 Turbo, I've had the thing for 6 years because its so hard to replace. Honda S2000 - too slow, Esprit - too fragile, Boxster - not sold on the looks, NSX - too expensive.
I know my car has its flaws, the ride is too harsh being the main one, but thats my fault for fitting coilovers, and thanks to the state of UK roads, there are stretches of tarmac I can cover just as quickly in my diesel 306! I really don't care that the steering isn't as communicative as that of its older and younger siblings, and whilst the MK2 has lashings of grip, I realise it lacks the adjustability of the MK1 and MK3.... not an issue. Because for 5 years my MR2 Turbo got me from Norfolk to Somerset and back every weekend and had me grinning from ear to ear. Whether I was gripping the steering wheel for dear life negotiating the bumpiest of Cambridgeshire's fen roads in an icy blizzard, or dicing with a Ferrari 550 on a deserted M11 in the wee small hours of a Monday morning, it had exactly what it takes to make every journey an event.
During these jaunts I would often cross paths with MK1 and MK3 drivers, and was almost always greeted with a wave or a flash of lights. As I'm sure that like me they could appreciate all MR2s for their respective strengths and weaknesses. Each car was a product of its time and offered mid-engined motoring to the working man, lets just be grateful for that.
Wow this looks like its turned into a mk2 MR2 vs mk3 MR2 thread! lol. Well I've had 2x mk3 MR2s now and they are certainly not slow, and hairdresser comments are common amongst people who don't get what the cars about/have missed the point. Slow vs a porsche or the like yes but its not in that class. Even with 138bhp its fast enough for every day use. The mk3 is not about speed anyway its handling is superb. For the record my other Mk3 MR2 had a turbo low boost 200 bhp, high boost put out 230bhp, very fast but I would not go back above 200bhp. Above 200 the mk3 is less fun to drive IMO.
MikeyMike said:
Oh dear, once again, enthusiasm for the SW20 brings out the vitriol of the haters. Why can't people accept that all three flavours of MR2 have their merits. Yes the MK1 and MK3 are more nimble than the MK2 and are a more delicate steer. The MK3 is a brilliant little roadster, but almost because of that deserved more power, and the MK1 was a bit of a revelation at its launch and has become an 80's icon.
I don't think anyone is saying that they don't all have their merits, are they (except one or two people who completely dismiss the mk3, for some reason)? They clearly all do - the mk1 is the best to drive, the mk3 is damned close to drive and reliable with it, and the mk2 is a comfortable, practical and very capable sports/GT crossovery type thing; and of course is bloody fast in turbo guise. They're all very good cars, in their own ways.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 7th December 18:00
kambites said:
I don't think anyone is saying that they don't all have their merits, are they? If you took this thread at face value, it would appear that SW20s are obscenely overweight psuedo GT cars that crash backwards through hedges when you make the slightest input to its overassisted steering, and ZZW30s are ugly cocoons of gheyness powered by lawnmower engines. Neither statement is true..... well not entirely anyway
Zircon said:
^ To give Steve his credit, he has had a tuned Mk2 Turbo, a VX220 and an MX5 turbo so I know you have a valid opinion. However, just like your MX5 turbo was heavily modified from standard, don't you think you could shift the weight around in a road going Mk2 and achieve the better balance you say the championship cars receive? The results of the championship races still show the Mk2 as an overall package is beating the others, either through power or handling advantages in one way or another.
I don't doubt there are better handling cars out there than the Mk2 - the Mk3 is for example, but cars are far more than just how they drive, they are emotive things and that is something beyond measure and why the likes of Alfa Romeo somehow still survive in our reliability zero tollerence motoring society!
All I have to do is look out of the window at my Mk2 and it stirs the soul - a Mk3 just does nothing for me, meaning I have no desire to go and drive it. A VX220 / Elise however is a different thing and I would save the extra few grand for one of those over a Mk3 any day....They look great and go great too.
Cheers Rob, your mk2 has had so much time effort and money spent on it i'm sure you will always keep it and you know I liked my mk2's (although I always thought it too heavy, remember I was always looking to get it too loose weight). I'm not slagging them off just saying the mk3's a better drive in my opinion, on track I can put it sideways again and again, flick it about all over the place, great FUN, the mk2 wasn't responsive enough to do that you could never really tell how far away you were from loosing it. I think it takes driving other things that are better before you realise its short comings. I don't doubt there are better handling cars out there than the Mk2 - the Mk3 is for example, but cars are far more than just how they drive, they are emotive things and that is something beyond measure and why the likes of Alfa Romeo somehow still survive in our reliability zero tollerence motoring society!
All I have to do is look out of the window at my Mk2 and it stirs the soul - a Mk3 just does nothing for me, meaning I have no desire to go and drive it. A VX220 / Elise however is a different thing and I would save the extra few grand for one of those over a Mk3 any day....They look great and go great too.
I'm in the un-usual situation of now having 2 heavily modified cars, MX5 for track (thats now been 2 years in the build) and a mk3 thats been with Rogue Motorsport since August having a 2ZZGE conversion (its not been straight forward). I've been on a motorbike every day since then (390bhp/tonne with me on it) and having had a break from cars for a bit to think about what I like about them, increasingly I think on the road I just want a motorbike and a luxo barge like my A6 then a really nice, really good weekend / track car. My choice after having the VX220 for 2 years would be an early S2 Elise with a supercharged Honda conversion and basically all of the Elise parts catalog of mods
would be about £30K though. I can't see myself ever wanting a new MR2 or new Supra.
Herman Toothrot said:
I can't see myself ever wanting a new MR2 or new Supra.
That is because you haven't let your previous cars get under your skin too much - something I wish i hadn't let the SW20 do - but it did, big time.I desperately want to own an Elise / VX220 and a Chimaera at some point, but I also need a practical car which is my E46 325Ci. Sadly the missus has said no to me getting another 2 seater as a daily as it means we always have to use her Audi for family / town trips and I cant see me parting with the MR2 at the moment.
Because you have moved on you would tend to naturally upgrade (like I have managed with my daily) and i wouldn't ever go back to an MR2 if I had stepped up to an Elise I don't think.....
5lab said:
I think you're mistaking throttle lag with engine inertia. how quickly an engine revs up and down can be related to throttle response, but it more likely to be related to flywheel weight - on a (pre dmf) diesel its often very slow and on sporty cars its often quite fast.
throttle response is more about the delay between flooring the throttle, and the full power being achieved, at a given engine speed. On most NA cars this is instant. On most turbo cars, particularly older ones, this is quite slow, as the turbo has to spin up from almost stationary (at no throttle) to full speed (at full throttle)
Same here - I wouldn't change my MK2 Rev 3 n/a for a Rev 3 Turbo. It isn't just about throttle response, it is more the inconsistency of the throttle response.throttle response is more about the delay between flooring the throttle, and the full power being achieved, at a given engine speed. On most NA cars this is instant. On most turbo cars, particularly older ones, this is quite slow, as the turbo has to spin up from almost stationary (at no throttle) to full speed (at full throttle)
Let say you are in third gear and using on-off-on-off throttle control speed on undulation and corners for any country roads. Depending on how long you have come off the throttle, the power on re-applying the throttle (say 2/3) is never the same at the instant you apply the throttle due to the turbo spool up time.
Moreover,
kambites said:
the mk3 is damned close to drive and reliable with it[/footnote]
Reliable? They seem to be anything but! Rather, they have a reputation for eating pre cats and oxygen sensors failing. Hopefully thats the worst of the troubles they suffer. But my friend who had the mk3 with the Tiptronic box (not a great thing on that car, to be honest, very laggy on the shifts) ended up getting rid of his when something went wrong with the gearbox. Toyota reckoned over £1000 to fix it, and he traded the car in a couple of days later and got another MX5.Baryonyx said:
kambites said:
the mk3 is damned close to drive and reliable with it
Reliable? They seem to be anything but! Rather, they have a reputation for eating pre cats and oxygen sensors failing. Hopefully thats the worst of the troubles they suffer. But my friend who had the mk3 with the Tiptronic box (not a great thing on that car, to be honest, very laggy on the shifts) ended up getting rid of his when something went wrong with the gearbox. Toyota reckoned over £1000 to fix it, and he traded the car in a couple of days later and got another MX5.I'd be interested to know what the overall failure rate is, I doubt it's that far off the MX5.
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