RE: PH Blog: go with the flow
Discussion
johnyt993 said:
Still finding the flow in my 993c2, its definitely there, just slowly getting to know it.
they definitely flow but need to be on the right rims and the right suspension IMO968CS flows a lot better... in fact the 968cs is an awesome old school organic flowing car
although its quite accelerative and not especially light, the best modern flowing car ive been in is a basic NA Evora ... stunning
Edited by jackal on Monday 9th January 17:30
I think the main ingredients are a really compliant ride (through either well thought out suspension allowing you to run low profile tyres ((let's be honest the only thing that low profile tyres are good for is looks on public roads)) or a decent amount of sidewall to iron out the UK's s
t roads, coupled with firm suspension so the car doesn't wallow about like a mattress).
You also want a nice bit or torque so that you don't have to rev the bks off the engine to get the car moving, as that would make the car feel to strained and inadequate.
When it comes to transmission yes a good sports auto gearbox will help it flow, the best car that combines all these attributes that I've ridden in was a W210 E55, it was like a magic carpet ride but also nice and tight in the corners.
Saying that, if you have a car with a manual box you'll get more satisfaction out of getting a nice drive out of it, blipping the throttle during down shifts etc. A car good for this that won't break the bank is a BMW E36 328i, they ride very well, have a nice amount of torque and a good manual box to work with.
t roads, coupled with firm suspension so the car doesn't wallow about like a mattress). You also want a nice bit or torque so that you don't have to rev the b
ks off the engine to get the car moving, as that would make the car feel to strained and inadequate.When it comes to transmission yes a good sports auto gearbox will help it flow, the best car that combines all these attributes that I've ridden in was a W210 E55, it was like a magic carpet ride but also nice and tight in the corners.
Saying that, if you have a car with a manual box you'll get more satisfaction out of getting a nice drive out of it, blipping the throttle during down shifts etc. A car good for this that won't break the bank is a BMW E36 328i, they ride very well, have a nice amount of torque and a good manual box to work with.
Wonderful, wonderful article. Summarises to a tee what I look for above all else in cars and driving experiences.
IMO "flow" is typically a function of:
- Matched primary control responses - a car with a poor gearchange, steering or pedal feel/position does not flow
- Weight distribution and predictable handling - a well-balanced car gives you that feeling that you are "at one" with it, and enables you to focus entirely on the road and the drive; conversely with an unbalanced or edgy car you are constantly conscious of the car and its characteristics and trying to overcome them
- Turn-in characteristics - when "attacking" a road, sharp, responsive turn-in gives you the confidence to carry entry speeds and sustain momentum
E39 M5, no flow???
Seriously??
My flabber is well and truly gasted.
So many cross country miles in mine at 5 or 6 tenths, each corner blending into the next straight and blending into the next corner that I found myself covering the miles very quickly and easily and smoothly. The power made it easy and the handling at that level of effort was sublime, imho.As the current owner of an E39 M5 and a 968, I would say the E39 is good, but the 968 is great. A significant reason this is the transaxle weight distribution and the fact that the driver sits exactly at the centre of mass. Much has been said about the perfect weight-distribution of the 924/944/968 series - for those looking for "flow", this is a quality that confers greatness.
IMO "flow" is typically a function of:
- Matched primary control responses - a car with a poor gearchange, steering or pedal feel/position does not flow
- Weight distribution and predictable handling - a well-balanced car gives you that feeling that you are "at one" with it, and enables you to focus entirely on the road and the drive; conversely with an unbalanced or edgy car you are constantly conscious of the car and its characteristics and trying to overcome them
- Turn-in characteristics - when "attacking" a road, sharp, responsive turn-in gives you the confidence to carry entry speeds and sustain momentum
mondeoman said:
PILCH 23 said:
This is a good article and hits the nail on the head. I prefered my old 944S2 to my current E39 M5.
WHAT???E39 M5, no flow???
Seriously??
My flabber is well and truly gasted.
So many cross country miles in mine at 5 or 6 tenths, each corner blending into the next straight and blending into the next corner that I found myself covering the miles very quickly and easily and smoothly. The power made it easy and the handling at that level of effort was sublime, imho.
cspknowles said:
Flow: is this the same as 'chuckability' - or the opposite?
Opposite as in 80's 911 Carerra v 991...firebird350 said:
Good article, Dan. Once ran a Fiat X1/9 and a Strada Abarth simultaneously and these two unlikely bedfellows really emphasised your point. The test road in question (a lifelong favourite) is the A39 (North Cornwall/Devon/Somerset) and both cars entertained hugely in their many times along this route.
The Abarth obviously had the grunt and would really tear up the tarmac but, man, you had to hang on! It was satisfying and fast but a real wrestle. The X1/9 was obviously slower but supremely 'thinkable' in its delicacy of response thanks to a finely-balanced chassis, well-chosen ratios and sublime steering - hence the flow.
Thought I'd found the best of both these two Italian worlds when I acquired an S2 Lancia Montecarlo (the one without the servo!) and, yes, it nearly did - but the X1/9 just (only just) shades it.
Good that so many people got your point, Dan (well, we ARE PH'ers!) and have enjoyed the feedback as it's highlighting the good 'flower's' out there, which, as has been said, the roadtest magazines don't really cut us in on.
Didn't someone put a Abarth twin cam engine into an X1/9 to give the best of both Worlds...The Abarth obviously had the grunt and would really tear up the tarmac but, man, you had to hang on! It was satisfying and fast but a real wrestle. The X1/9 was obviously slower but supremely 'thinkable' in its delicacy of response thanks to a finely-balanced chassis, well-chosen ratios and sublime steering - hence the flow.
Thought I'd found the best of both these two Italian worlds when I acquired an S2 Lancia Montecarlo (the one without the servo!) and, yes, it nearly did - but the X1/9 just (only just) shades it.
Good that so many people got your point, Dan (well, we ARE PH'ers!) and have enjoyed the feedback as it's highlighting the good 'flower's' out there, which, as has been said, the roadtest magazines don't really cut us in on.
plenty said:
Wonderful, wonderful article. Summarises to a tee what I look for above all else in cars and driving experiences.
IMO "flow" is typically a function of:
- Matched primary control responses - a car with a poor gearchange, steering or pedal feel/position does not flow
- Weight distribution and predictable handling - a well-balanced car gives you that feeling that you are "at one" with it, and enables you to focus entirely on the road and the drive; conversely with an unbalanced or edgy car you are constantly conscious of the car and its characteristics and trying to overcome them
- Turn-in characteristics - when "attacking" a road, sharp, responsive turn-in gives you the confidence to carry entry speeds and sustain momentum
E39 M5, no flow???
Seriously??
My flabber is well and truly gasted.
So many cross country miles in mine at 5 or 6 tenths, each corner blending into the next straight and blending into the next corner that I found myself covering the miles very quickly and easily and smoothly. The power made it easy and the handling at that level of effort was sublime, imho.As the current owner of an E39 M5 and a 968, I would say the E39 is good, but the 968 is great. A significant reason this is the transaxle weight distribution and the fact that the driver sits exactly at the centre of mass. Much has been said about the perfect weight-distribution of the 924/944/968 series - for those looking for "flow", this is a quality that confers greatness.
Balanced handling for basic level flow, trickier handling a la 911 for more advanced flow... - harder "work" at lower speed = more flow surely....?IMO "flow" is typically a function of:
- Matched primary control responses - a car with a poor gearchange, steering or pedal feel/position does not flow
- Weight distribution and predictable handling - a well-balanced car gives you that feeling that you are "at one" with it, and enables you to focus entirely on the road and the drive; conversely with an unbalanced or edgy car you are constantly conscious of the car and its characteristics and trying to overcome them
- Turn-in characteristics - when "attacking" a road, sharp, responsive turn-in gives you the confidence to carry entry speeds and sustain momentum
mondeoman said:
PILCH 23 said:
This is a good article and hits the nail on the head. I prefered my old 944S2 to my current E39 M5.
WHAT???E39 M5, no flow???
Seriously??
My flabber is well and truly gasted.
So many cross country miles in mine at 5 or 6 tenths, each corner blending into the next straight and blending into the next corner that I found myself covering the miles very quickly and easily and smoothly. The power made it easy and the handling at that level of effort was sublime, imho.
Blimey, 127 comments and only 1 mention of an M3, and that wasn't the E30!
That's a brilliant article Dan, and I know exactly what you mean, I think this is also probably the reason why the E30 M3 STILL wins the scoring on so many comparisons, that is, because it is so enjoyable to drive.
I am slightly biased since I own one, but I also have a Z4 MCoupe and of the two I'd say I enjoy the M3 on a nice twisty A or B road even though the Z4 is much faster!
That's a brilliant article Dan, and I know exactly what you mean, I think this is also probably the reason why the E30 M3 STILL wins the scoring on so many comparisons, that is, because it is so enjoyable to drive.
I am slightly biased since I own one, but I also have a Z4 MCoupe and of the two I'd say I enjoy the M3 on a nice twisty A or B road even though the Z4 is much faster!
Some of my favourite driving experiences came at the wheel of a mk1 MR2 (that I miss dearly). On paper these days it looks pretty mundane but sense of sheer joy that came from linking corners together in it was huge. Straights just became a place where you prepared for the next set of bends. Driving the country roads around where I live provided more fun at 30-50mph than I have experienced in any number of statistically quicker motors since then.
I think though my appreciation for "flow" started with my first 2 cars: First was a Series IIa 109 2.25 petrol Landie so slow you had to plan your "flow" 2 miles in advance. This was followed by a 900cc Fiat Cinquecento, a car that just wanted to spend all it's time nipping along country lanes far too narrow for any serious sports car.
So I think the key is definitely to get a car that that tugs at your heels like an excited Jack Russell wanting to play fetch, rather a monstrous hound that just wants to chew you up and spit you into your neighbour's hedge!
I think though my appreciation for "flow" started with my first 2 cars: First was a Series IIa 109 2.25 petrol Landie so slow you had to plan your "flow" 2 miles in advance. This was followed by a 900cc Fiat Cinquecento, a car that just wanted to spend all it's time nipping along country lanes far too narrow for any serious sports car.
So I think the key is definitely to get a car that that tugs at your heels like an excited Jack Russell wanting to play fetch, rather a monstrous hound that just wants to chew you up and spit you into your neighbour's hedge!
) the prospect of downsizing to warm-hatch motoring for a couple of years!Flow comes first from the road, same as with the Mountain Bike...if the trail is boring so is the ride. Next comes the driver and this is the same with the Mountain Biker, its all about moving your weight around on the Mountain Bike both fore and aft as well as side to side, this is nessasary because of the flowing, undulating trail. The same is true with the road, if the road requires too much heavy braking and wild accelaration you get violent weight shift and this upsets flow. Which is why people mis-judge overly powerful cars to have poor flow, in my experience overly powerful cras with big grakes often tempt the driver to drive just too fast, rather than just right....lets call it the Goldilocks speed
I've a Clio 200 Cup, the wife a Suzuki SX4 baby carrier...because of space requirements, most of our recent touring has been done in the Suzi...some truly memorable long drives and very much in the "flow" mode...carrying speed and rhythm to defeat the lack of oomph and so as not to disturb 'er in-doors too much...finding fun and a challenge in unexpected places - what modern motoring's becoming all about...BF
Edited by Black Frog on Monday 9th January 20:58
estoril said:
Blimey, 127 comments and only 1 mention of an M3, and that wasn't the E30!
That's a brilliant article Dan, and I know exactly what you mean, I think this is also probably the reason why the E30 M3 STILL wins the scoring on so many comparisons, that is, because it is so enjoyable to drive.
I am slightly biased since I own one, but I also have a Z4 MCoupe and of the two I'd say I enjoy the M3 on a nice twisty A or B road even though the Z4 is much faster!
Had an E30 M3 too and driving in Italy in the mountains above Imola was a great experience.That's a brilliant article Dan, and I know exactly what you mean, I think this is also probably the reason why the E30 M3 STILL wins the scoring on so many comparisons, that is, because it is so enjoyable to drive.
I am slightly biased since I own one, but I also have a Z4 MCoupe and of the two I'd say I enjoy the M3 on a nice twisty A or B road even though the Z4 is much faster!
Owned quite a few cars and sometimes the least powerful ones have given me the most 'driving' pleasure - great article that has got a lot of people thinking that 'flow' is the true essence of driving pleasure!!
Munich said:
100% Agree.
It isn't just out-right power that can corrupt a car's "flowing" ability, but the need to have ever bigger wheels and lower profile tyres.
I'm currently running my Mini on 16" wheels and although it might not look as good as the 18" wheels, it flows down the road far better absorbing the bumps and potholes instead of crashing over/through them, and because you concentrate less on avoiding the imperfections in the road you can enjoy the drive more and usually end up driving quicker even though you have less outright grip.
Funnily enough I've just took some 15" wheels off the mx5 and put the original 14" wheels back on, and it has definitely made the car "flow" better, the ride quality is improved and the car just feels better, so there is definitely something to be said for the "bigger not always better" thought when it comes to wheels.It isn't just out-right power that can corrupt a car's "flowing" ability, but the need to have ever bigger wheels and lower profile tyres.
I'm currently running my Mini on 16" wheels and although it might not look as good as the 18" wheels, it flows down the road far better absorbing the bumps and potholes instead of crashing over/through them, and because you concentrate less on avoiding the imperfections in the road you can enjoy the drive more and usually end up driving quicker even though you have less outright grip.
interesting topic imo an experienced driver should be able to make any car "flow" having spent the last 20 years driving various cars around the b roads of norfolk & suffolk (no motorways here!) from a 45hp 954cc pug 205 to an elise, you have to adapt your driving style to get the best from the car wether it be a torquey diesel or peaky vtec. one of the most amusing drives ive had was chasing down a peeved off aston martin vantage driver down a b road i drove every day he couldnt shake me off as hard as he was trying, the car i was in? a vauxhall calibra 16v 
Yup, my Lancer GSR (~195hp on 195R15) was a far nicer drive than the Evo (~290hp on 205R16), just allowed me to *drive* it more often. Funny feeling.
Also, my old 300TD was a dream to waft along at speed. Something to do with having to point it in the right direction about 30yds before a corner maybe...
Also, my old 300TD was a dream to waft along at speed. Something to do with having to point it in the right direction about 30yds before a corner maybe...
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff