RE: PH Blog: go with the flow
Discussion
Good article. I think flow is a combination of both driver and car - you need both to hit the sweet spot.
My Smart Roadster is an absolute joy on twisty B-roads, but when my wife is driving, it can be painful to watch
My old Saab 9000 Turbo was surprisingly good at flow as well - good torquey engine, pliant suspension and very easy to drive smoothly.
My Smart Roadster is an absolute joy on twisty B-roads, but when my wife is driving, it can be painful to watch
My old Saab 9000 Turbo was surprisingly good at flow as well - good torquey engine, pliant suspension and very easy to drive smoothly.
My best moments in biking have been with the flow factor. I can hoon it at incredible pace hammering it on for the corner and accelerating out at great speed, But a nice slow flow is far more rewarding. Actually not that slow either, and good on fuel as well. Taking the twisty roads and relaxing is much better than hanging on for dear life and getting to the destination not having enjoyed yourself. Riding my bike is all about flow!
Great article!
Worst car I had for flow was an E39 530i Sport. Superb car in so many ways, but it lacked proportion in multiple aspects of it's behaviour and control weights. The chassis was too quick and grippy for the available torque / gearing, and the accelerator's excessive lightness was exacerbated by a disproportionate throttle map that made it impossible to meter power out of a corner or over a crest. I had to sell the car.
My old M5, the wife's Mondeo diesel and even my old Landcruiser 4.2 by contrast can be made to "flow" quite nicely. Quick road driving for me is about getting a rhythm going, blending control inputs to produce swift progress. Compliance in the car and proportion in control weights contribute to rhythm and flow.
Worst car I had for flow was an E39 530i Sport. Superb car in so many ways, but it lacked proportion in multiple aspects of it's behaviour and control weights. The chassis was too quick and grippy for the available torque / gearing, and the accelerator's excessive lightness was exacerbated by a disproportionate throttle map that made it impossible to meter power out of a corner or over a crest. I had to sell the car.
My old M5, the wife's Mondeo diesel and even my old Landcruiser 4.2 by contrast can be made to "flow" quite nicely. Quick road driving for me is about getting a rhythm going, blending control inputs to produce swift progress. Compliance in the car and proportion in control weights contribute to rhythm and flow.
jaik said:
My 1985 Nissan Bluebird 1.6 with 130,000 miles flowed far more nicely than it had any right to, it was quite good fun to hustle along sweeping bends. Slow and soft, but fun.
I had a 1986 Volvo 360 that flowed well. It had 2 litre torque, a rear-mounted gearbox, and de Dion rear suspension, slow but very feelsome steering (that would correct for slides if you just let it go), and very squidgy suspension.
great article - being able to make the most of the roads we actually drive has got to be the way forward.
Ride comfort, personalisation, "flow", perhaps even smaller sizes might all become higher priorities soon....
Back on thread - I think the key is power delivery and suspension quality.
Someone mentioned a JTD Multipla - I still remember a 500 mile weekend round trip in a hired one from 10 years ago, couldn't get over how much fun it was even with 5 people and luggage.
I also remember test riding a Ducati 900SS years ago - not a fast bike but absolutely beautiful suspension for a the road. Something that would have provided immense pleasure on a twisting road at either 5 tenths or 9 tenths.
Ride comfort, personalisation, "flow", perhaps even smaller sizes might all become higher priorities soon....
Back on thread - I think the key is power delivery and suspension quality.
Someone mentioned a JTD Multipla - I still remember a 500 mile weekend round trip in a hired one from 10 years ago, couldn't get over how much fun it was even with 5 people and luggage.
I also remember test riding a Ducati 900SS years ago - not a fast bike but absolutely beautiful suspension for a the road. Something that would have provided immense pleasure on a twisting road at either 5 tenths or 9 tenths.
This is indeed a very good article.
My primary fun vehicles are all about the flow - MX5 and a 1 litre Aprilia V-twin. MX5 goes without saying - it maintains momentum very well and it's very easy to keep it ticking along at quite a pace due to its precise handling and cornering ability.
However the best fun is to be had on my bike. I love just tooling along in 3rd and 4th gear rolling on and off the throttle utilising the engine braking with a light application of brake every now and then. When you get it right in terms of perfect entry speeds for corners it is very satisfying.
My primary fun vehicles are all about the flow - MX5 and a 1 litre Aprilia V-twin. MX5 goes without saying - it maintains momentum very well and it's very easy to keep it ticking along at quite a pace due to its precise handling and cornering ability.
However the best fun is to be had on my bike. I love just tooling along in 3rd and 4th gear rolling on and off the throttle utilising the engine braking with a light application of brake every now and then. When you get it right in terms of perfect entry speeds for corners it is very satisfying.
I find my Astra to have a nice 'flow' to it, and I guess in an ideal world I'd get slightly better suspension but leave the engine is smooth and pretty revvy for what it is. The Escort on the other hand, when really pushing to its limit (not saying much...) is terrifying. That said, the combination of the complete lack of power, boat-like suspension and the bloody fantastic spotlights make night drives down the lanes far more fun than a 23 year old poverty-spec hatchback has any right to be.
Gf's Fiesta mk4 on the other hand, feels like it's going to be properly good fun Lovely engine (1.25) and 'darts' whenever you turn. Currently having the suspension refreshed as well, I might have to test drive it when she gets it back 
That said, the combination of the complete lack of power, boat-like suspension and the bloody fantastic spotlights make night drives down the lanes far more fun than a 23 year old poverty-spec hatchback has any right to be.Gf's Fiesta mk4 on the other hand, feels like it's going to be properly good fun
Lovely engine (1.25) and 'darts' whenever you turn. Currently having the suspension refreshed as well, I might have to test drive it when she gets it back I'm not convinced by the argument that low powered cars flow better, as others have said it is one's state of mind that is a crucial part of this and to me thrapping a car to within an inch of its life is not one where I find that the optimum feeling of flow. Don't get me wrong it is possible and indeed certain parts of the experience (suspension, grip etc) might be ebbing and flowing perfectly but the powertrain experience (particularly incessant gearchanging) surely interrupts flow?
One of the crucial elements for me is torque- as it happens both of my Tivs have been excellent "flow-ers" (as opposed to flowers...) with the ability to stick the car in fifth and just use the grunt to ooze from corner to corner at a good (but not frightening) lick. With no gearchanging one then focuses on tipping the car in as smoothly as possible, perhaps even avoiding the brakes and using engine braking- all inputs being buttery smooth.
However I don't always want to drive like this- particularly living out of the country and having to drive in the South East when I come back I want something that can provide me a 30 second visceral thrill when conditions allow. Not wanting to sound like a Bangkok massage parlour but pleasure comes in many forms...
It's funny what does and does not flow though and the format in which it comes- my 330i never flowed due to a combination of a little too much slack in the suspension knocking confidence and an electronic throttle which had a lag making it impossible to precisely meter- however a Passat diesel I contract-hired in Ireland for much of last year was great. Bizarrely the turbo helped as by judging throttle input you could get it to spin up smoothly as you entered the straights with a lovely sense of thrust. On my father's 1933 Railton flow is all about the mechanical processes- no synchro means that if you can execute a perfect set of changes the sense of flow that you feel you have within the machine is exquisite
One of the crucial elements for me is torque- as it happens both of my Tivs have been excellent "flow-ers" (as opposed to flowers...) with the ability to stick the car in fifth and just use the grunt to ooze from corner to corner at a good (but not frightening) lick. With no gearchanging one then focuses on tipping the car in as smoothly as possible, perhaps even avoiding the brakes and using engine braking- all inputs being buttery smooth.
However I don't always want to drive like this- particularly living out of the country and having to drive in the South East when I come back I want something that can provide me a 30 second visceral thrill when conditions allow. Not wanting to sound like a Bangkok massage parlour but pleasure comes in many forms...
It's funny what does and does not flow though and the format in which it comes- my 330i never flowed due to a combination of a little too much slack in the suspension knocking confidence and an electronic throttle which had a lag making it impossible to precisely meter- however a Passat diesel I contract-hired in Ireland for much of last year was great. Bizarrely the turbo helped as by judging throttle input you could get it to spin up smoothly as you entered the straights with a lovely sense of thrust. On my father's 1933 Railton flow is all about the mechanical processes- no synchro means that if you can execute a perfect set of changes the sense of flow that you feel you have within the machine is exquisite
Brilliant article Mr Trent. Loving the Blog articles in general actually, they bring the 'article' side of a magazine to PH which was sorely missing.
My own 'flow' story was taking two cars down the same bit of road in two days.
Day 1 - Audi S8. Hard ride, vague steering, couple of twitchy nervous moment where i didn't know what the car was about to do.
Day 2 - Focus ST170. Stiff ride again, but well controlled, lots of wheel travel, enough poke if you kept it on the boil. The Focus felt like it was an extension of my fingers and toes, dancing over the dips and crests of the road with a delicate ease that belied it's relatively meagre power.
PH - Flow matters...
My own 'flow' story was taking two cars down the same bit of road in two days.
Day 1 - Audi S8. Hard ride, vague steering, couple of twitchy nervous moment where i didn't know what the car was about to do.
Day 2 - Focus ST170. Stiff ride again, but well controlled, lots of wheel travel, enough poke if you kept it on the boil. The Focus felt like it was an extension of my fingers and toes, dancing over the dips and crests of the road with a delicate ease that belied it's relatively meagre power.
PH - Flow matters...
Brilliant article. Reminds me of a quote: "its more fun to drive a slow car fast, than drive a fast car slow." I know thts not exactly what you were getting at Dan but most of my drives that had flow were in slow cars. Actually my very first few were on my scooter when I started riding bikes. But most recently it was in a hired Peugeot 107 that went from North London to Chichester for the Goodwood revival. There was so much flow it was like Zen, and to quote another poster on this thread, it was transcendent!
You have to wonder if any of the bankers that only ever drive their Aston DBS' and 911 Turbos into London city centre everyday really know what they are missing compared to the folk with mere bog standard 911s and Aston Vantages!
You have to wonder if any of the bankers that only ever drive their Aston DBS' and 911 Turbos into London city centre everyday really know what they are missing compared to the folk with mere bog standard 911s and Aston Vantages!
great piece.
reminds me of my old 1.4 auto corsa. no abs, no power steering, tyres the size of a BMX etc etc. Utterly utterly rubbish car, really really bad. BUT, one of the most enjoyable at the same time for many of the reasons stated above. Extracting any performance out of it was fun.
reminds me of my old 1.4 auto corsa. no abs, no power steering, tyres the size of a BMX etc etc. Utterly utterly rubbish car, really really bad. BUT, one of the most enjoyable at the same time for many of the reasons stated above. Extracting any performance out of it was fun.
Great thread.
Contrary to what some others have said, I think 'flow' really is about the car not the road or even the ability of the driver - although some cars will 'flow' with some drivers whilst other drivers will find they don't. A car with good 'flow' (have we invented a new bit of jargon btw?!? - only a matter of time before we read 'flowification' on here somewhere ;-) ) can flow even on the most banal of drives. Somebody mentioned that their mini flows even driving around London - absolutely right.
Like others have said, for me it is all about the harmony of the individual parts of the vehicle, all must be in balance, and NOTHING must be so poor or intrusive that it kills the driving experience.
What we need is something like the top gear cool/not cool wall with flow/doesn't flow at each end... see how much we all agree on which cars really 'flow'.
See what you think of this as a starter for 10: Cars I have owned (or driven a lot) over the last few years..... oh and I've chucked a couple of bikes in there as well for good measure...
Superb Flow...
- Legacy 3.0 Spec B
- 1995 Range Rover 2.5DT (yes, really!)
- Mazda RX8
- S2 Elise S
- S1 Elise 111S
- New model Lotus Europa (after remap, original map was too flawed)
- Renault Clio 1.2
- Suzuki TL1000R
- Ducati 999R
Can flow sometimes...
- Honda S2000
- Esprit V8
- VX220 turbo
- MGZT260
- MGZT260 supercharged
- Renault Espace 3.5V6
- Citroen C5 2.2HDI
- Suzuki GSXr750
- Aprillia RSV1000Factory
Somewhat lacking in flow...
- TVR T350 (sorry, I know PH was once a TVR site!)
- Mitsubishi Colt 1.1
- Mercedes CLS55AMG (the non AMG 5.0V8 had more flow, wish I had bought that instead, but CLS chassis too flawed to ever be in the top category!)
- Audi A4 TDI
Cheers
Jerry
Contrary to what some others have said, I think 'flow' really is about the car not the road or even the ability of the driver - although some cars will 'flow' with some drivers whilst other drivers will find they don't. A car with good 'flow' (have we invented a new bit of jargon btw?!? - only a matter of time before we read 'flowification' on here somewhere ;-) ) can flow even on the most banal of drives. Somebody mentioned that their mini flows even driving around London - absolutely right.
Like others have said, for me it is all about the harmony of the individual parts of the vehicle, all must be in balance, and NOTHING must be so poor or intrusive that it kills the driving experience.
What we need is something like the top gear cool/not cool wall with flow/doesn't flow at each end... see how much we all agree on which cars really 'flow'.
See what you think of this as a starter for 10: Cars I have owned (or driven a lot) over the last few years..... oh and I've chucked a couple of bikes in there as well for good measure...
Superb Flow...
- Legacy 3.0 Spec B
- 1995 Range Rover 2.5DT (yes, really!)
- Mazda RX8
- S2 Elise S
- S1 Elise 111S
- New model Lotus Europa (after remap, original map was too flawed)
- Renault Clio 1.2
- Suzuki TL1000R
- Ducati 999R
Can flow sometimes...
- Honda S2000
- Esprit V8
- VX220 turbo
- MGZT260
- MGZT260 supercharged
- Renault Espace 3.5V6
- Citroen C5 2.2HDI
- Suzuki GSXr750
- Aprillia RSV1000Factory
Somewhat lacking in flow...
- TVR T350 (sorry, I know PH was once a TVR site!)
- Mitsubishi Colt 1.1
- Mercedes CLS55AMG (the non AMG 5.0V8 had more flow, wish I had bought that instead, but CLS chassis too flawed to ever be in the top category!)
- Audi A4 TDI
Cheers
Jerry
Nice article and I've enjoyed reading the comments as well.
I get the concept - I ride mountain bikes, motorbikes and drive a couple of cars and love it when you get into the "zone" and everything flows nicely. I think it's easier to achieve flow on a regular basis on a motorbike as fewer things interupt the natural flow of the journey - overtakes are easier for example.
I echo the comments made about IAM, ROSPA etc style training for those that haven't tried it. I passed my car IAM test when at Uni and I've become an Observer for my local bike IAM group and the training helped my skills a lot.
I can remember my first demo drive when doing the car IAM training - incredible car control and flow and we were making great progress with no fuss at all. The memory has stuck with me for 20 years or so. If you haven't had the chance to ride or drive with a top police traffic guy, you really should try and do it.
I concur with George 500s comments - After an original mini (at 17), 205, 944 turbo, and then a (petrol) 5 series I've come to quite enjoy the torquey deliver of diesels. My wife has a 120d M sport (auto) that jolts and bangs along on anything but smooth roads, but when you get some decent tarmac it's a nice car to flow down the road in, with the auto transmission adding to the quite relaxing but decent progress.
Family needs meant an S Max was the right (non-selfish) choice for me now. So, I looked out for a really nice one with the bigger 2.2 diesel engine and it can be a nice drive as you surge along on the torque with the family happy as well :-)
I get the concept - I ride mountain bikes, motorbikes and drive a couple of cars and love it when you get into the "zone" and everything flows nicely. I think it's easier to achieve flow on a regular basis on a motorbike as fewer things interupt the natural flow of the journey - overtakes are easier for example.
I echo the comments made about IAM, ROSPA etc style training for those that haven't tried it. I passed my car IAM test when at Uni and I've become an Observer for my local bike IAM group and the training helped my skills a lot.
I can remember my first demo drive when doing the car IAM training - incredible car control and flow and we were making great progress with no fuss at all. The memory has stuck with me for 20 years or so. If you haven't had the chance to ride or drive with a top police traffic guy, you really should try and do it.
I concur with George 500s comments - After an original mini (at 17), 205, 944 turbo, and then a (petrol) 5 series I've come to quite enjoy the torquey deliver of diesels. My wife has a 120d M sport (auto) that jolts and bangs along on anything but smooth roads, but when you get some decent tarmac it's a nice car to flow down the road in, with the auto transmission adding to the quite relaxing but decent progress.
Family needs meant an S Max was the right (non-selfish) choice for me now. So, I looked out for a really nice one with the bigger 2.2 diesel engine and it can be a nice drive as you surge along on the torque with the family happy as well :-)
Flow - it's the new BHP.
It's also why of all the caterhams I've owned the live axle 1700 and 1.6 superlight were more fun than the R500.
And the best drive I've had in the last two years has been in my old MG Midget on B-roads, about half an hour journey that normally takes 25 minutes in anything newer.
And it's why I've still got a Mk1 MX5 on the drive. There's a TV show that says "you must have owned an Alfa to be a true petrolhead". I think its actually an MX5.
It's also why of all the caterhams I've owned the live axle 1700 and 1.6 superlight were more fun than the R500.
And the best drive I've had in the last two years has been in my old MG Midget on B-roads, about half an hour journey that normally takes 25 minutes in anything newer.
And it's why I've still got a Mk1 MX5 on the drive. There's a TV show that says "you must have owned an Alfa to be a true petrolhead". I think its actually an MX5.
doggydog33 said:
Some magazines call it 'Evo-ness'.
It's the fun factor that's needed.
MX5
Elise
Honda Beat
Smart Roadster
Suzuki Cappucino
Pug 106
205 gti
Citroen AX GT
All the sort of cars to have down a twisty bit of clear road. Problem comes when you need to overtake something, then you will wish you had a bit more oomph!
I agree (especially on the 106, AX front).It's the fun factor that's needed.
MX5
Elise
Honda Beat
Smart Roadster
Suzuki Cappucino
Pug 106
205 gti
Citroen AX GT
All the sort of cars to have down a twisty bit of clear road. Problem comes when you need to overtake something, then you will wish you had a bit more oomph!
Excellent article.
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