RE: PH Blog: go with the flow
Discussion
I guess this where real racing drivers come into their element. I remember doing a track test day 12 years ago. The instructor lapped comfortably quicker 4-up in a Rover 25 than we could manage 2-up in a 2.7 Porsche Boxster. He knew the lines and how to keep up momentum throughout the lap.
So are we going to see a new style of car review from PH? Establish a favourite road route to run any cars up for a test and give them a rating not by time, but the flow they deliver. From a babbling brook, an ox bow lake cut off from the main river to the thunderous roar of the Niagara Falls.
Seems from the comments there is enthusiasm for understanding how well cars flow down a road.
Seems from the comments there is enthusiasm for understanding how well cars flow down a road.
For me, 25 years ago, flow was all about a series of Alfasuds and those amazing roads in the Scottish Borders and Highlands.
I've since found it more unexpected motors - a hired BMW 320d of all things in Provence 8 or 9 years ago stands out. I found the dag dag noise faded into the background as the inherent balance and rightness of the car shone through.
I've since found it more unexpected motors - a hired BMW 320d of all things in Provence 8 or 9 years ago stands out. I found the dag dag noise faded into the background as the inherent balance and rightness of the car shone through.
Great bit of writing that. The thoughts that immediately sprung to mind were the surprisingly wonderful rover 400, which was actually a great car to attack a b road in! Plus the ride as a passenger in a bmw mini one that was better than any drive I've experienced in a cooper s with the same man at the helm.
I'm enjoying the flow much better in my 330i than I did in my Skoda. No longer do I need to pin the throttle everywhere to feel like I'm going quick, just a light squeeze of the throttle and glide through the corners. I can drive this car at 5/10ths and enjoy it more than the Skoda at 8/10ths. Here's to more flowing! 
IanO said:
So are we going to see a new style of car review from PH? Establish a favourite road route to run any cars up for a test and give them a rating not by time, but the flow they deliver. From a babbling brook, an ox bow lake cut off from the main river to the thunderous roar of the Niagara Falls.
Seems from the comments there is enthusiasm for understanding how well cars flow down a road.
I hope it's taken into account, but please, don't call it 'PH-ness' or something similarly self-referentially wSeems from the comments there is enthusiasm for understanding how well cars flow down a road.
ky, Evo journos sound so up their own rectum describing something with regard to EVO-ness, I'd like to think PH doesn't take itself quite so seriously....Rawwr said:
It's typically a 1.3 Endura or Duratec. Funnily enough, I got given one for a week whilst the 340R was being put back together. It was hilarious. It was so hilarious that once I'd sold the 340R, I replaced it with a Ka. People never really understood that move.
Wasn't Bell and Colvill, was it? Until Lipscomb arrived in North Kent, B&C were my nearest dealers and so it always meant a week with the car (Saturday > Saturday) which was when I could pick it up, hence the Ka.This was probably 5/6yrs ago now - would that affect if it's a 1.3 or not? For some reason 1.3 sounds too big
You can drive a high-power car and still maintain decent flow. You've just got to remind yourself that you don't have to use all of the horses all of the time.
When exiting one corner, you need to look far enough ahead and decide how much of your power it makes sense to use between here and the next corner, and hence when you're going to start easing off the power so that you don't need to be braking too much.
When I'm hustling the TVR along a twisty road, I rarely use more than 75% of its power. I aim for a smooth modulation of power from one corner to the next, with minimal braking (which requires good judgement of when to start easing off) - and where braking is necessary, I try to blend it into the car's natural deceleration.
If you were to draw a graph of your acceleration and deceleration, it should be a curvy line rather than an angular one - and that's just as possible in a TVR as it is in an MX-5.
When exiting one corner, you need to look far enough ahead and decide how much of your power it makes sense to use between here and the next corner, and hence when you're going to start easing off the power so that you don't need to be braking too much.
When I'm hustling the TVR along a twisty road, I rarely use more than 75% of its power. I aim for a smooth modulation of power from one corner to the next, with minimal braking (which requires good judgement of when to start easing off) - and where braking is necessary, I try to blend it into the car's natural deceleration.
If you were to draw a graph of your acceleration and deceleration, it should be a curvy line rather than an angular one - and that's just as possible in a TVR as it is in an MX-5.
Great topic....especially given that in the modern world it's much easier to enjoy a car that has great flow than out and out 0-60 time. Surely an E30 M3 has got to be one of the greatest flow candidates ?
As someone that loves his skiing it's a great thing to relate to......there is nothing more boring than pointing the tips downhill and going for the max.....much more fun to really get the skis on their edges and carve some great turns or go off piste and challenge yourseld in the tight and twisty moguls.
As someone that loves his skiing it's a great thing to relate to......there is nothing more boring than pointing the tips downhill and going for the max.....much more fun to really get the skis on their edges and carve some great turns or go off piste and challenge yourseld in the tight and twisty moguls.
100% Agree.
It isn't just out-right power that can corrupt a car's "flowing" ability, but the need to have ever bigger wheels and lower profile tyres.
I'm currently running my Mini on 16" wheels and although it might not look as good as the 18" wheels, it flows down the road far better absorbing the bumps and potholes instead of crashing over/through them, and because you concentrate less on avoiding the imperfections in the road you can enjoy the drive more and usually end up driving quicker even though you have less outright grip.
It isn't just out-right power that can corrupt a car's "flowing" ability, but the need to have ever bigger wheels and lower profile tyres.
I'm currently running my Mini on 16" wheels and although it might not look as good as the 18" wheels, it flows down the road far better absorbing the bumps and potholes instead of crashing over/through them, and because you concentrate less on avoiding the imperfections in the road you can enjoy the drive more and usually end up driving quicker even though you have less outright grip.
Good article but not exactly a new idea .... the 2CV was perhaps the original master of flow and doing it happily 40 years ago or so (whilst scraping its wing mirrors across the tarmac).
This is why a simple Puma or Elise will in simplest driving terms, be more pleasurable than any other car you care to mention, from Boxster to 250GTO. A lack of power means the experience of flow is intesified and that's always a good thing.
The problem is of course is that car ownership is a hobby of many many dimensions, not just driving and not just THAT type of driving. I would rather stare at a green Miura for 2 hours than drive an elise for 2 hours for example.
This is why a simple Puma or Elise will in simplest driving terms, be more pleasurable than any other car you care to mention, from Boxster to 250GTO. A lack of power means the experience of flow is intesified and that's always a good thing.
The problem is of course is that car ownership is a hobby of many many dimensions, not just driving and not just THAT type of driving. I would rather stare at a green Miura for 2 hours than drive an elise for 2 hours for example.
Edited by jackal on Monday 9th January 12:04
This is a great topic and a really interesting read. I can't help agreeing with some of the comments though that it's almost more of a state of mind for the driver than it is a factor of the car. Perhaps it's possible to "flow" down any particular road in any particular car, but it's just the speed and rhythm required, for want of a better word, and whether the driver wants to slow down or go as fast as is necessary. And it's everything - how the car reacts to bumps, what the steering input is like, how effortlessly it accelerates and decelerates, the matching of gear ratios, and so on.
For example, there's a really smooth road near me that I can drive just as pleasingly in the dag dag as the fun car, but to feel like I'm flowing in both cars, there's a significant outright speed differential.
Anyway, that's just my 2p, great topic Dan!
For example, there's a really smooth road near me that I can drive just as pleasingly in the dag dag as the fun car, but to feel like I'm flowing in both cars, there's a significant outright speed differential.
Anyway, that's just my 2p, great topic Dan!
Kawasicki said:
I think the flow comes from the driver more than the car. Flow can also happen a long way from the limit. It takes a very skilled driver to make a fast car flow above 5/10ths (and it is massively illegal in most countries).
Great article, but I think there is truth in what Kawasicki is saying. Flow is sometimes difficult to achieve in many high performance cars and while this might often be due to the fact that manufacturers have played the numbers game rather than look at the full driving experience, i think the real reason is because a car of that nature is capable of so much more it requires a fair amount of skill to maintain flow over the same piece of road as a lower performance car.doggydog33 said:
Some magazines call it 'Evo-ness'.
It's the fun factor that's needed.
MX5
Elise
Honda Beat
Smart Roadster
Suzuki Cappucino
Pug 106
205 gti
Citroen AX GT
All the sort of cars to have down a twisty bit of clear road. Problem comes when you need to overtake something, then you will wish you had a bit more oomph!
Exactly.It's the fun factor that's needed.
MX5
Elise
Honda Beat
Smart Roadster
Suzuki Cappucino
Pug 106
205 gti
Citroen AX GT
All the sort of cars to have down a twisty bit of clear road. Problem comes when you need to overtake something, then you will wish you had a bit more oomph!
It's also why I fitted a supercharger to my MX5, 210bhp is perfect.
I've owned faster turbo (260bhp) MX5s but what they gained in FAST they lost in FUN.
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