RE: PH Blog: go with the flow
Discussion
Good article and very true.
In my experience on a good road it is often more rewarding and enjoyable driving a lower powered car. Some cars are almost too powerful for this type of work, which means you are always on the brakes scrubbing off speed before the bends, rather than flowing and carrying momentum, which can require more skill in my experience.
Best drive I ever had was Manchester to Pembroke though mid Wales in a MK2 REV5 NA MR2. Early morning, sun just coming up, roof panels off and engine snarling and zinging away just behind my ear. Despite only putting out a mere 170ish bhp it was just magic. Great drive.
Also did the same drive in a remapped Alfa 159 TI 1.9 diesel. It may not have had massive power, but the smooth mid range and beautiful handling meant that was a really flowing drive.
My current remapped 2.4 Spider was all at sea on the same drive when I did it a few weeks ago, flexing and dipping all over the shop and almost had too much mid range to use without getting you in trouble at the next bend.
In my experience on a good road it is often more rewarding and enjoyable driving a lower powered car. Some cars are almost too powerful for this type of work, which means you are always on the brakes scrubbing off speed before the bends, rather than flowing and carrying momentum, which can require more skill in my experience.
Best drive I ever had was Manchester to Pembroke though mid Wales in a MK2 REV5 NA MR2. Early morning, sun just coming up, roof panels off and engine snarling and zinging away just behind my ear. Despite only putting out a mere 170ish bhp it was just magic. Great drive.
Also did the same drive in a remapped Alfa 159 TI 1.9 diesel. It may not have had massive power, but the smooth mid range and beautiful handling meant that was a really flowing drive.
My current remapped 2.4 Spider was all at sea on the same drive when I did it a few weeks ago, flexing and dipping all over the shop and almost had too much mid range to use without getting you in trouble at the next bend.
Great to hear the comments - seems to have got everyone talking and that's a good thing in my book.
I've had my say
but for what it's worth this is more than just case of less powerful/more humble cars being able to dish up more/equal 'fun' than those that demolish them in price or horsepower. As has been said, flow is equally achievable in powerful cars (like I say, it was the Range Rover Sport that inspired this!) and it's a subtle combination of factors as many have correctly observed. In the fullest sense it's the 'not what you've got, what you do with it' mentality.
Keep 'em coming too. And, as I say, I think it's a topic we'll be returning to quite a lot in 2012 so I'm glad it's inspired so much chatter!
Dan
I've had my say
but for what it's worth this is more than just case of less powerful/more humble cars being able to dish up more/equal 'fun' than those that demolish them in price or horsepower. As has been said, flow is equally achievable in powerful cars (like I say, it was the Range Rover Sport that inspired this!) and it's a subtle combination of factors as many have correctly observed. In the fullest sense it's the 'not what you've got, what you do with it' mentality. Keep 'em coming too. And, as I say, I think it's a topic we'll be returning to quite a lot in 2012 so I'm glad it's inspired so much chatter!
Dan
masermartin said:
Perhaps it's possible to "flow" down any particular road in any particular car, but it's just the speed and rhythm required, for want of a better word, and whether the driver wants to slow down or go as fast as is necessary. And it's everything - how the car reacts to bumps, what the steering input is like, how effortlessly it accelerates and decelerates, the matching of gear ratios, and so on.
Nail on the head there too, spot on!jackal said:
This is why a simple Puma or Elise will in simplest driving terms, be more pleasurable than any other car you care to mention, from Boxster to 250GTO. A lack of power means the experience of flow is intesified and that's always a good thing.
The problem is of course is that car ownership is a hobby of many many dimensions, not just driving. I would rather stare at a green Miura for 2 hours than drive an elise for 2 hours for example.
The problem is of course is that car ownership is a hobby of many many dimensions, not just driving. I would rather stare at a green Miura for 2 hours than drive an elise for 2 hours for example.
Can't comment on the 250GTO though
I agree with much of this but I think there is a lot more to it. Its not just the car or the driver or the road. The whole experience is affected by everything, the weather your frame of mind and everything else. You can go along the same bit of road every day and not "flow" then one day it just happens. One of my favoured is the A82 along the side of Loch Lomond and then again along the side of Loch Ness. In between these two bits the scenery is stunning, its a very entertaining road, arguably one of the best in the UK but at these two bits the twists and bends are fantastic. I make the trip regularly and its always enjoyable but on two occasions now, once at night, it was fantastic. Everything just came together for no reason that I can put my finger on. The car was singing the conditions were fantastic and my frame of mind got better as the journey progressed. The flow was in full swing. I have made that trip in more powerful cars and while fun it wasnt the same. I also made the trip in the same car several times but only on one other occasion did it flow. Cant wait for the next one!
clarki said:
My evo FQ400 had masses of ooomph but I just couldnt get into a nice rythme with it whatsoever; foot down, nothing, nothing, nothing...all hell breaks loose...change gear, nothing, nothing - you get the picture.
Sold it, bought an R26R - much less speed but much, much more driving pleasure. Perfect for me and my driving style.
Oh, nice piece btw.
The FQ 400 really did have a badly specced turbo. The standard smaller turbo can make 400bhp with a few mods and makes a much better road car.Sold it, bought an R26R - much less speed but much, much more driving pleasure. Perfect for me and my driving style.
Oh, nice piece btw.
TonyHetherington said:
Wasn't Bell and Colvill, was it? Until Lipscomb arrived in North Kent, B&C were my nearest dealers and so it always meant a week with the car (Saturday > Saturday) which was when I could pick it up, hence the Ka.
This was probably 5/6yrs ago now - would that affect if it's a 1.3 or not? For some reason 1.3 sounds too big
Not B&C. It was a dealer outside Cambridge. Tore out the wheelarch liners the second time I borrowed it. Fun times.This was probably 5/6yrs ago now - would that affect if it's a 1.3 or not? For some reason 1.3 sounds too big
jackal said:
The problem is of course is that car ownership is a hobby of many many dimensions, not just driving. I would rather stare at a green Miura for 2 hours than drive an elise for 2 hours for example.
You've evidently never spent two hours driving an Elise around hereabouts, is all I can say.Looking at a Miura won't make your grinning-muscles ache in quite the same way.
Flow-tastic. :-D
The skiing comparison is a good one. In the last couple of years I've taken both advanced road driving and skiing lessons and the similarity between the core messages were pretty much the same in both. Doing less and getting where you want to go much quicker / more smoothly / with less effort.
It's just a shame their isn't an automotive equivalent of the red-suited Swiss ski instructor. Somehow it's perfectly alright to go down a slope at antisocial speeds if you're following an instructor.
Oh, and another vote for a Ka. One of my most memorable drives in 2011 was in a Ka early morning on empty twisty roads. They're like my Lotus in that regards - anyone can get in and drive one but if you get it right it rewards at a much higher level.
It's just a shame their isn't an automotive equivalent of the red-suited Swiss ski instructor. Somehow it's perfectly alright to go down a slope at antisocial speeds if you're following an instructor.
Oh, and another vote for a Ka. One of my most memorable drives in 2011 was in a Ka early morning on empty twisty roads. They're like my Lotus in that regards - anyone can get in and drive one but if you get it right it rewards at a much higher level.
There should be a separate article on something I like to call "Transcendance". Its sort of related to flow because they kind of often go hand in hand.
If a car is low powered, skinny rubber etc.. then you get to its limits very easily for a high percentage of the time. When you are on the country road and you power up the next hill full throttle, you are exploiting the total of the cars performance. You are transcending the car, exhausting its abilities and performance. This feeling of 'wringing out', 'being beyond the car' is a feeling of mastery, of dominance, of absolute exploitation. There's a sense of purging or catharsis or completeness that comes with it IMO and for those few moments it makes the world feel perfect somehow. It is a feeling that for me personally, is more satisfying and rewarding than any quarter mile time you care to subject me to. In fact I found in my life that after many years of trackdays, driving on the road because a bit boring unless I was treated to this feeling of transcending the car.
If a car is low powered, skinny rubber etc.. then you get to its limits very easily for a high percentage of the time. When you are on the country road and you power up the next hill full throttle, you are exploiting the total of the cars performance. You are transcending the car, exhausting its abilities and performance. This feeling of 'wringing out', 'being beyond the car' is a feeling of mastery, of dominance, of absolute exploitation. There's a sense of purging or catharsis or completeness that comes with it IMO and for those few moments it makes the world feel perfect somehow. It is a feeling that for me personally, is more satisfying and rewarding than any quarter mile time you care to subject me to. In fact I found in my life that after many years of trackdays, driving on the road because a bit boring unless I was treated to this feeling of transcending the car.
Edited by jackal on Monday 9th January 12:17
Hurrah! This nails it for me, flow is all about power matched to suspension and ride quality. I have a history of buying the lower tier models and getting slated for not getting the 'right' car by my BHP-loving mates.
I bought a MINI (sorry Dan) Cooper back in 2003 because it was so much more fluid on standard 15s than the pimped up Cooper Ss I tried and then I had to hunt high and low for a 986 on 'small' wheels and the same again when I was hunting out my basic 987 Boxster running around on 17s. Ok, there have been times in both cars when I would have liked a bit more shove, but there have been far more drives where the car has felt absolutely matched to the road.
The only time I haven't followed my own advice was with my BMW 130i on enormous great runflats and rigid dampers. Now that is a hard car to flow with - don't get me wrong, it's a great car and fun in a very different way, but it's dominated by the engine rather than the ride.
I bought a MINI (sorry Dan) Cooper back in 2003 because it was so much more fluid on standard 15s than the pimped up Cooper Ss I tried and then I had to hunt high and low for a 986 on 'small' wheels and the same again when I was hunting out my basic 987 Boxster running around on 17s. Ok, there have been times in both cars when I would have liked a bit more shove, but there have been far more drives where the car has felt absolutely matched to the road.
The only time I haven't followed my own advice was with my BMW 130i on enormous great runflats and rigid dampers. Now that is a hard car to flow with - don't get me wrong, it's a great car and fun in a very different way, but it's dominated by the engine rather than the ride.
Driving and enjoying owning cars is about different experiences for me.
I've had a Puma, I've had an Elise. Yes there's a lot of fun to be had maintaining momentum, extracting a little bit extra from everything, feeling it slide a little (cough, on a track, obviously).
But that's not to say there isn't a bit of childish fun to be had from a willy waving monster too. I adore my GT-R specifically because its a ridiculous pantomime car that will happily tear your face off. It's very existence as a road car is preposterous. Brilliant.
I've had a Puma, I've had an Elise. Yes there's a lot of fun to be had maintaining momentum, extracting a little bit extra from everything, feeling it slide a little (cough, on a track, obviously).
But that's not to say there isn't a bit of childish fun to be had from a willy waving monster too. I adore my GT-R specifically because its a ridiculous pantomime car that will happily tear your face off. It's very existence as a road car is preposterous. Brilliant.
chandrew said:
It's just a shame their isn't an automotive equivalent of the red-suited Swiss ski instructor.
Oh but there are:http://www.hpc.org.uk/
Edited by redgriff500 on Monday 9th January 13:17
masermartin said:
This is a great topic and a really interesting read. I can't help agreeing with some of the comments though that it's almost more of a state of mind for the driver than it is a factor of the car. Perhaps it's possible to "flow" down any particular road in any particular car, but it's just the speed and rhythm required, for want of a better word, and whether the driver wants to slow down or go as fast as is necessary. And it's everything - how the car reacts to bumps, what the steering input is like, how effortlessly it accelerates and decelerates, the matching of gear ratios, and so on.
For example, there's a really smooth road near me that I can drive just as pleasingly in the dag dag as the fun car, but to feel like I'm flowing in both cars, there's a significant outright speed differential.
Anyway, that's just my 2p, great topic Dan!
Superb post, I absolutely agree with you.For example, there's a really smooth road near me that I can drive just as pleasingly in the dag dag as the fun car, but to feel like I'm flowing in both cars, there's a significant outright speed differential.
Anyway, that's just my 2p, great topic Dan!
Mattt said:
Indeed, however I lay part of the blame at Journos - who all too often turn to the stats in comparison tests, hence why manufacturers have been chasing them rather than 'flow'.
There's certainly an element of that, but it is also the consumer's 'need' for more of everything in each new model.Cracking article though, it's something I've though for a long while (has provided some great pub chat with fellow petrol (and piston!) heads; but not something I've ever been able to describe.
I know I'll get disagreed with here, but the reasoning behind the article is also the reason I decided not to go for a Boxster, I test drove one and it just didn't feel as much of a 'flow-er' (
) as my MX-5; the '5 definitely involves you in the driving process more. 
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