RE: PH Blog: go with the flow
Discussion
Good write up.
Agree entirely on the Puma, and many Fords from about 10 years ago.
There is a sense of flow with many cars that have nice damping, well weighted controls, good feedback, but also good ride quality/refinement and a smooth engine, especially if not four cylinders. An automatic gearbox is no disqualifier, neither is something with a lot of power.
E46 M3 and Mk V Golf GTI are two cars that I've rarely got to flow because their suspension is so wrong on many UK roads. R35 GTR and Evo IX could do it in some circumstances, but the bonkers speed often inhibited it so it was more a manic keeping up with the abilities of the cars. If you don't try too hard in the GTR and the road isn't too rough it can flow very well indeed, but sometimes it is just too full on when you want to relax and then something like my old Legacy H6 auto flows beautifully in the most horrid conditions.
Agree entirely on the Puma, and many Fords from about 10 years ago.
There is a sense of flow with many cars that have nice damping, well weighted controls, good feedback, but also good ride quality/refinement and a smooth engine, especially if not four cylinders. An automatic gearbox is no disqualifier, neither is something with a lot of power.
E46 M3 and Mk V Golf GTI are two cars that I've rarely got to flow because their suspension is so wrong on many UK roads. R35 GTR and Evo IX could do it in some circumstances, but the bonkers speed often inhibited it so it was more a manic keeping up with the abilities of the cars. If you don't try too hard in the GTR and the road isn't too rough it can flow very well indeed, but sometimes it is just too full on when you want to relax and then something like my old Legacy H6 auto flows beautifully in the most horrid conditions.
scampbird said:
I adore my GT-R specifically because its a ridiculous pantomime car that will happily tear your face off. It's very existence as a road car is preposterous. Brilliant.
And this is also spot on! It's an all-inclusive concept that doesn't really demand any joining fee beyond just, well, getting it. scampbird said:
But that's not to say there isn't a bit of childish fun to be had from a willy waving monster too. I adore my GT-R specifically because its a ridiculous pantomime car that will happily tear your face off. It's very existence as a road car is preposterous. Brilliant.
The GTR was very impressive but, on the downside, it did make me do a little bit of poo. Cars shouldn't be that quick.mrmr96 said:
So, Dan, is what you're saying that you're getting too old to drive properly fast cars properly fast? And you feel more comfortable with something slower? I just don't believe you can't get the same sense of flowing joy from a more capable car, unless you're scared of it.
Well, it's more complicated than that. Though part of it must be that properly fast cars have got easier to drive properly fast. That GT3 example I raised in the piece - it's always taken me a little while to ease into the experience but, boy, once I have... As a couple of unfortunate passengers will attest! Part of that is that to really rinse a GT3 makes much greater demands of you as a driver. First time I drove one I moaned that the pedals seemed really badly placed and weighted for heel and toe but then it dawned on me that they *were* spot on but only when you were completely on it and using the kind of brake and throttle applications you would when really committed. Just one of the many reasons I love those cars.
So, yes, you can get that sense of flow out of a seriously capable car but, by heck, you need to think carefully about when/where you might do that. So I guess that's where a slower/less powerful car might be advantageous, purely because it might open up more opportunities.
But, like I say, it's more subtle than that and not just about how fast or slow you're going. It's about how you feel doing it. And how the sensations from the car, from its controls to the noise it makes, contribute to that.
mrmr96 said:
So, Dan, is what you're saying that you're getting too old to drive properly fast cars properly fast? And you feel more comfortable with something slower? I just don't believe you can't get the same sense of flowing joy from a more capable car, unless you're scared of it.
No.It's true some fast cars do flow, my Dad had a 450bhp V8 C Type Replica that had been built for racing and I drove that every chance I got and it flowed very well.
BUT I can't remember anything else anywhere near as fast that flows as well as my (far from standard) MX5 - I currently own a 380bhp Monaro too and it doesn't come close.
Plus with most modern cars over 300bhp they aren't even trying below 120mph on an A road and these days those speeds could get you a short prison term.
PILCH 23 said:
This is a good article and hits the nail on the head. I prefered my old 944S2 to my current E39 M5.
WHAT???E39 M5, no flow???
Seriously??
My flabber is well and truly gasted.
So many cross country miles in mine at 5 or 6 tenths, each corner blending into the next straight and blending into the next corner that I found myself covering the miles very quickly and easily and smoothly. The power made it easy and the handling at that level of effort was sublime, imho.
Dan Trent said:
mrmr96 said:
So, Dan, is what you're saying that you're getting too old to drive properly fast cars properly fast? And you feel more comfortable with something slower? I just don't believe you can't get the same sense of flowing joy from a more capable car, unless you're scared of it.
Well, it's more complicated than that. Though part of it must be that properly fast cars have got easier to drive properly fast. That GT3 example I raised in the piece - it's always taken me a little while to ease into the experience but, boy, once I have... As a couple of unfortunate passengers will attest! Part of that is that to really rinse a GT3 makes much greater demands of you as a driver. First time I drove one I moaned that the pedals seemed really badly placed and weighted for heel and toe but then it dawned on me that they *were* spot on but only when you were completely on it and using the kind of brake and throttle applications you would when really committed. Just one of the many reasons I love those cars.
So, yes, you can get that sense of flow out of a seriously capable car but, by heck, you need to think carefully about when/where you might do that. So I guess that's where a slower/less powerful car might be advantageous, purely because it might open up more opportunities.
But, like I say, it's more subtle than that and not just about how fast or slow you're going. It's about how you feel doing it. And how the sensations from the car, from its controls to the noise it makes, contribute to that.
I also recognise that on some occasions slower cars can be more fun to drive, as you exit a corner, balancing the throttle and keep it pinned until the next braking point without hitting scary speeds on the straight. However I find that only really applies on the road, when you have to balance what you're doing against the unpredictability of the world. (Different on track of course.)
I just took some of your comments as being that "high precision cars don't flow" which I don't tend to agree with, rather it takes significantly more work.
Sorry about the "old man" dig, all in good humour.
Cheers.
mrmr96 said:
So, Dan, is what you're saying that you're getting too old to drive properly fast cars properly fast? And you feel more comfortable with something slower? I just don't believe you can't get the same sense of flowing joy from a more capable car, unless you're scared of it.
...Personally, when things get really serious i generally cack myself but its good to know your limits i think...(did 1 hours karting the other day, came 9th out of 20 and spent the last 15 minutes wishing it would end...that about right i think for me)...not talented enough for pushing on in something too quick...
LotusOmega375D said:
With the notable exception of EVO, what magazines would they be?
Evo was the magazine I was thinking about. I don't buy it any more but when it was first launched it was a good read that used to report on all sorts of 'metal', not just the exotica most of us can't afford.
Excellent topic. Couldn't agree more, while I'm loving my 911 turbo it really needs the right roads to get into a good rhythm and the speeds it does don't give you much margin for error, whereas in my boxster s I could enjoy it more of the time and in my old mini I could even enjoy driving around bits of london.
BigTom85 said:
Oops yes I thought it looked wrong.I'll edit my post.
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