RE: Lotus parent company sold
Discussion
jackal said:
Exactly. 99.9% DGAF about the chassis or steering feel. They just want an Audi TT that looks good and has a swanky interior.
Pistonheads = tiny weeny miniscule forum chock full of left brain dominant freaks. Its not the real world.
True - but it's a big enough niche that it should be able to support a specialist industry. The problem I see is that people think they should be able to get specialist products at mass market prices.Pistonheads = tiny weeny miniscule forum chock full of left brain dominant freaks. Its not the real world.
otolith said:
True - but it's a big enough niche that it should be able to support a specialist industry. The problem I see is that people think they should be able to get specialist products at mass market prices.
The problem is that in the Western World, it isn't a big enough niche.Society and Governmental influence is making petrolheaded behaviour less and less popular. Young people growing up are now indoctrinated through school and PR into believing fossil fuel powered transport is on the way out, that it's old and irrelevant, that speed is anti-social and transport is just about getting from A-B without killing the planet.
Companies with a brain will be paying lip service to the European markets they've already got and pushing like bloody hell to get market share in South America and the East where the social pariah status of petrolheads has yet to find any traction.
Sadly, like many good things, petrol/diesel powered fun is going to gradually fade away in terms of acceptable mass market. It will be replaced by other things, but companies who don't realise this is happening, will find themselves marginalised and lost.
Is Lotus in the right frame of mind and market place to take advantage?
There will remain a market for these things in the West for some time yet - even when we have adopted post-fossil fuel technologies, there will still be people who think dynamics are important. Providing efficient cars which use lightweight technologies and put the driving experience ahead of bellowing for more power is the kind of niche Lotus was well placed to exploit and which is likely to persist long after EU CO2 limits have consigned the 400bhp family saloon to history.
Those who want will have to pay, and those who build will have to cut their coat according to their cloth. I expect Caterham and Ginetta understand this, even if Lotus doesn't.
Those who want will have to pay, and those who build will have to cut their coat according to their cloth. I expect Caterham and Ginetta understand this, even if Lotus doesn't.
Well Lotus are attacking the Asian market with some success, and the Esprit is intended to be a hybrid so I don't think they're exactly ignoring the current situation. Ginetta are only planning to sell 50 cars so I don't think they're really responding to market forces so much as aiming at a comfortable niche. Caterham have been stuck in their niche for so long it can hardly be made out to be a strategy so much as an inability to do anything else. That's going to change under Fernandes, but it looks like he's planning a track day toy rather than a mass market vehicle.
In all three cases we'll have to see how it pans out. Unfortunately there is a huge risk that the new owners of Lotus will want to make their mark and change direction. Right now, before they've even produced a single car under the 'new vision' is way too soon to kick Bahar's plan into touch even if he is disliked. His job is to put things on a level footing over five years, not make friends and pander to some people's need for instant gratification.
I really think people underestimate how bad things had got at Lotus, and how long it will take to make a real difference to how they make and sell cars.
In all three cases we'll have to see how it pans out. Unfortunately there is a huge risk that the new owners of Lotus will want to make their mark and change direction. Right now, before they've even produced a single car under the 'new vision' is way too soon to kick Bahar's plan into touch even if he is disliked. His job is to put things on a level footing over five years, not make friends and pander to some people's need for instant gratification.
I really think people underestimate how bad things had got at Lotus, and how long it will take to make a real difference to how they make and sell cars.
Whether Bahar's plan will succeed is another matter - what I was really getting at was the failure to make the pre-Bahar model turn a profit - I don't think that's because it is impossible to make money in that market, I think Lotus just mismanaged it and wasted too much of the revenue from the success of the Elise platform.
I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to describe what Bahar is doing as launching an entirely new sports car company which only really uses the old Lotus for marketing purposes. The important things "new" Lotus needs from "old" Lotus are the name, the heritage and the brand recognition (and more in terms of F1 success than perceptions of the road cars), not the people, technology or engineering principles.
I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to describe what Bahar is doing as launching an entirely new sports car company which only really uses the old Lotus for marketing purposes. The important things "new" Lotus needs from "old" Lotus are the name, the heritage and the brand recognition (and more in terms of F1 success than perceptions of the road cars), not the people, technology or engineering principles.
otolith said:
Whether Bahar's plan will succeed is another matter - what I was really getting at was the failure to make the pre-Bahar model turn a profit - I don't think that's because it is impossible to make money in that market, I think Lotus just mismanaged it and wasted too much of the revenue from the success of the Elise platform.
I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to describe what Bahar is doing as launching an entirely new sports car company which only really uses the old Lotus for marketing purposes. The important things "new" Lotus needs from "old" Lotus are the name, the heritage and the brand recognition (and more in terms of F1 success than perceptions of the road cars), not the people, technology or engineering principles.
It's impossible to make money from the old lotus model for a company of there size, they'd need to get rid of nearly everybody, shrink the factory capacity etc etc, it would mean massive cutsI don't think it's entirely unreasonable to describe what Bahar is doing as launching an entirely new sports car company which only really uses the old Lotus for marketing purposes. The important things "new" Lotus needs from "old" Lotus are the name, the heritage and the brand recognition (and more in terms of F1 success than perceptions of the road cars), not the people, technology or engineering principles.
The company needs to sell more cars a year at much higher margins and prices, to make a profit, people keep saying caterham do it morgan do it, these companies are a 10th of the size of lotus, what works for them wont work for lotus
The current plan to emulate ferrari with F1, merchandise etc is IMO the right one, the merchandising side needs to get much bigger, Lotus are never going to sell in the same volumes as porsche and other high end marques like Aston and Lambo hardly make huge profits either
The only 2 high end makers really rolling it in, is porsche with migh margin and high volume (relatively) and Ferrari with modest profit on the cars and loads more from merchandise
peter450 said:
The only 2 high end makers really rolling it in, is Porsche with migh margin and high volume (relatively) and Ferrari with modest profit on the cars and loads more from merchandise
Careful! Facts never go down well on PH. I've long believed Ferrari make a lot more money from selling hats and T-shirts than they do from selling cars.Sadly Lotus now has no sales volume and very little "brand value". It's difficult to be optimistic.
So none of the high end manufacturers make any money, except Porsche (in part by selling SUVs) and Ferrari (by selling tat). Yes, I can see the attraction of breaking into that market...
Anyway, that's what they're committed to, I hope it works out. I think if you write off every market Lotus has previously failed to make money in, there's not much left.
Anyway, that's what they're committed to, I hope it works out. I think if you write off every market Lotus has previously failed to make money in, there's not much left.
otolith said:
So none of the high end manufacturers make any money, except Porsche (in part by selling SUVs) and Ferrari (by selling tat). Yes, I can see the attraction of breaking into that market...
Anyway, that's what they're committed to, I hope it works out. I think if you write off every market Lotus has previously failed to make money in, there's not much left.
It's the only market they have, Lotus is a sports car brand, they dont have the economies of scale to be a mass maker, nor any brand or history in that market areaAnyway, that's what they're committed to, I hope it works out. I think if you write off every market Lotus has previously failed to make money in, there's not much left.
If they can string together some decentish F1 results, get the new cars properly built, sort out the dealer network and sell a bit of merchandise along the way they will be on the way, but it's not a small task, and it does need strong money backing, which the sale of proton has thrown completely in the air
No money = no any plan, and IMO the demise of the company
Money + plan fail = the same
I'm hoping they suceed because i can't see anywere else for the car side of the business to go if they fail
Dave8310 said:
I think this is the only way Lotus will go. A business that's just made an investment at that level won't tolerate losses because Lotus is a "nice name". Fact is they haven't made money for decades and Danny Bahr's approach is insane - he's living in a Ferrari dreamworld (notice the Ferrari momentos littered round his office in the recent Evo interview).
Lotus is not Ferrari. The Evora was pushing the limits of the brand, taking on 911, and it didn't succeed due to: residuals, performance, quality, dealer network. So why would a >£100k car work for Lotus?
The Evora achieved huge critical acclaim, but never translated in to sales due to people's perception of the brand, and the strength of other brands. Unfortunatley, a high percentage of people spending £60k on a car choose a car because of how it makes them feel/look (non-pistonheaders) - a status reward for all their hard work. This is why Porsche is so succesfull (excellent to drive and has the brand power, catering for all the markets) and Aston is loosing it's way (Brand power at launch, but no real dynamic credibility behind the looks so it's fizzling out as the trends move on IMO).
One of the first things Danny Bahr did was spend however many million (was it 5 mil?) resurfacing the Hethel circuit and installing an F1 pit - sign of a good CEO? What's the return on that investment? Giving Lotus Evoras to the Italian police - sound familiar?! Good promotion for the Lotus name, or a pointless excerise for Danny's personal satisfaction. You need to fill the holes in the bucket before you start trying to poor more water in the top......
Don't worry, I am not even going to mention Swissbeatz.
The worrying thing is Danny Bahr seems to be making all the decisions, signing off designs, branding, merchandise. What's the point in employing qualified and hugely experienced designers and marketers, if you can make a better decision yourself?! Just because he's in charge, doesn't mean he's the best at everything. Division of labour, specialised skills, effective delegation Danny.
It's a one man show and Proton have been funding the Danny Bahr self promotion club. Hopefully these new investors will not be charmed by his reputation (i.e. the Ferrari name) and analyse his business accumen.
Apologies for the rant. I am a Lotus owner by the way, but hopefully this comes across objective. It's not so much that I am annoyed what's happening with Lotus Cars(I wouldn't be able to afford one of their cars anyway) it's that someones shagging a British (sort of now) company with loyal staff for their own personal gain.
Very well put!Lotus is not Ferrari. The Evora was pushing the limits of the brand, taking on 911, and it didn't succeed due to: residuals, performance, quality, dealer network. So why would a >£100k car work for Lotus?
The Evora achieved huge critical acclaim, but never translated in to sales due to people's perception of the brand, and the strength of other brands. Unfortunatley, a high percentage of people spending £60k on a car choose a car because of how it makes them feel/look (non-pistonheaders) - a status reward for all their hard work. This is why Porsche is so succesfull (excellent to drive and has the brand power, catering for all the markets) and Aston is loosing it's way (Brand power at launch, but no real dynamic credibility behind the looks so it's fizzling out as the trends move on IMO).
One of the first things Danny Bahr did was spend however many million (was it 5 mil?) resurfacing the Hethel circuit and installing an F1 pit - sign of a good CEO? What's the return on that investment? Giving Lotus Evoras to the Italian police - sound familiar?! Good promotion for the Lotus name, or a pointless excerise for Danny's personal satisfaction. You need to fill the holes in the bucket before you start trying to poor more water in the top......
Don't worry, I am not even going to mention Swissbeatz.
The worrying thing is Danny Bahr seems to be making all the decisions, signing off designs, branding, merchandise. What's the point in employing qualified and hugely experienced designers and marketers, if you can make a better decision yourself?! Just because he's in charge, doesn't mean he's the best at everything. Division of labour, specialised skills, effective delegation Danny.
It's a one man show and Proton have been funding the Danny Bahr self promotion club. Hopefully these new investors will not be charmed by his reputation (i.e. the Ferrari name) and analyse his business accumen.
Apologies for the rant. I am a Lotus owner by the way, but hopefully this comes across objective. It's not so much that I am annoyed what's happening with Lotus Cars(I wouldn't be able to afford one of their cars anyway) it's that someones shagging a British (sort of now) company with loyal staff for their own personal gain.
Either Danny Bahr thinks he's much better than he actually is. He's a marketing man that thought he could run a company based purely on marketing (not the actual business acumen and strategy that is really required) and so all the things he has been doing are just trimmings.
Of course maybe he was sent by Ferrari with one intention - destroy Lotus (sabotage) and then go back to Ferrari..
In any event - now is the time to buy a Lotus, not to save the company but to own one while you can, and who knows - it may even appreciate in value in a few years.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Just don't let Mike "Evora" Kimberley come back under any circumstances! What was he thinking.
You mean the guy who finally managed to get Lotus to produce a genuinely new product, and who put the entire VVA programme in place that is the basis of the new Esprit?What was he thinking? The first Lotus in a while that could actually be sold worldwide to more than a specialist market, and a platform designed for an entire range of cars that gets nothing but praise?
The nastiness in here really knows no bounds.
tekyd said:
Dave8310 said:
I think this is the only way Lotus will go. A business that's just made an investment at that level won't tolerate losses because Lotus is a "nice name". Fact is they haven't made money for decades and Danny Bahr's approach is insane - he's living in a Ferrari dreamworld (notice the Ferrari mementos littered round his office in the recent Evo interview).
Lotus is not Ferrari. The Evora was pushing the limits of the brand, taking on 911, and it didn't succeed due to: residuals, performance, quality, dealer network. So why would a >£100k car work for Lotus?
The Evora achieved huge critical acclaim, but never translated in to sales due to people's perception of the brand, and the strength of other brands. Unfortunately, a high percentage of people spending £60k on a car choose a car because of how it makes them feel/look (non-pistonheaders) - a status reward for all their hard work. This is why Porsche is so successful (excellent to drive and has the brand power, catering for all the markets) and Aston is loosing it's way (Brand power at launch, but no real dynamic credibility behind the looks so it's fizzling out as the trends move on IMO).
One of the first things Danny Bahr did was spend however many million (was it 5 mil?) resurfacing the Hethel circuit and installing an F1 pit - sign of a good CEO? What's the return on that investment? Giving Lotus Evoras to the Italian police - sound familiar?! Good promotion for the Lotus name, or a pointless exercise for Danny's personal satisfaction. You need to fill the holes in the bucket before you start trying to poor more water in the top......
Don't worry, I am not even going to mention Swissbeatz.
The worrying thing is Danny Bahr seems to be making all the decisions, signing off designs, branding, merchandise. What's the point in employing qualified and hugely experienced designers and marketers, if you can make a better decision yourself?! Just because he's in charge, doesn't mean he's the best at everything. Division of labour, specialised skills, effective delegation Danny.
It's a one man show and Proton have been funding the Danny Bahr self promotion club. Hopefully these new investors will not be charmed by his reputation (i.e. the Ferrari name) and analyse his business acumen.
Apologies for the rant. I am a Lotus owner by the way, but hopefully this comes across objective. It's not so much that I am annoyed what's happening with Lotus Cars(I wouldn't be able to afford one of their cars anyway) it's that someones shagging a British (sort of now) company with loyal staff for their own personal gain.
Very well put!Lotus is not Ferrari. The Evora was pushing the limits of the brand, taking on 911, and it didn't succeed due to: residuals, performance, quality, dealer network. So why would a >£100k car work for Lotus?
The Evora achieved huge critical acclaim, but never translated in to sales due to people's perception of the brand, and the strength of other brands. Unfortunately, a high percentage of people spending £60k on a car choose a car because of how it makes them feel/look (non-pistonheaders) - a status reward for all their hard work. This is why Porsche is so successful (excellent to drive and has the brand power, catering for all the markets) and Aston is loosing it's way (Brand power at launch, but no real dynamic credibility behind the looks so it's fizzling out as the trends move on IMO).
One of the first things Danny Bahr did was spend however many million (was it 5 mil?) resurfacing the Hethel circuit and installing an F1 pit - sign of a good CEO? What's the return on that investment? Giving Lotus Evoras to the Italian police - sound familiar?! Good promotion for the Lotus name, or a pointless exercise for Danny's personal satisfaction. You need to fill the holes in the bucket before you start trying to poor more water in the top......
Don't worry, I am not even going to mention Swissbeatz.
The worrying thing is Danny Bahr seems to be making all the decisions, signing off designs, branding, merchandise. What's the point in employing qualified and hugely experienced designers and marketers, if you can make a better decision yourself?! Just because he's in charge, doesn't mean he's the best at everything. Division of labour, specialised skills, effective delegation Danny.
It's a one man show and Proton have been funding the Danny Bahr self promotion club. Hopefully these new investors will not be charmed by his reputation (i.e. the Ferrari name) and analyse his business acumen.
Apologies for the rant. I am a Lotus owner by the way, but hopefully this comes across objective. It's not so much that I am annoyed what's happening with Lotus Cars(I wouldn't be able to afford one of their cars anyway) it's that someones shagging a British (sort of now) company with loyal staff for their own personal gain.
Either Danny Bahr thinks he's much better than he actually is. He's a marketing man that thought he could run a company based purely on marketing (not the actual business acumen and strategy that is really required) and so all the things he has been doing are just trimmings.
Of course maybe he was sent by Ferrari with one intention - destroy Lotus (sabotage) and then go back to Ferrari..
In any event - now is the time to buy a Lotus, not to save the company but to own one while you can, and who knows - it may even appreciate in value in a few years.
The company will not go out of existence. If as seems quite likely now it is sold off there will be plenty of interested parties. Hopefully some with realistic plans to return the firm to positive trading
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