RE: Ringside seat: tourist laps under threat
Discussion
Looks less likely that now I can afford it I would be able to go and have a good time. Who knows, you never know until you find out.
It's a tragic story by the sounds of it, and nobody likes their niche being diluted by the masses - but I really don't agree with those of the view "the boy racers have ruined it, we need true petrol heads only!". Get off your high horses, everyone is entitled to be there as the next guy if they pay their fee. Not that I condone any who disregard gentlemanly composure and the rules, but if barry wants to turn up with the over-boosted supermini then let them. Wait for him or her to move on, watch them and have a laugh if you find it ridiculous, and then do it your own way.
It's a tragic story by the sounds of it, and nobody likes their niche being diluted by the masses - but I really don't agree with those of the view "the boy racers have ruined it, we need true petrol heads only!". Get off your high horses, everyone is entitled to be there as the next guy if they pay their fee. Not that I condone any who disregard gentlemanly composure and the rules, but if barry wants to turn up with the over-boosted supermini then let them. Wait for him or her to move on, watch them and have a laugh if you find it ridiculous, and then do it your own way.
I have never been to the ring, always been meaning to get there, but each time friends have gone something has always stood in the way, other commitments, car off the road etc
So i asked with naivety, would the increased popularity over say the last decade or so not increased the chances of the ring being successful? More people through the gates, more revenue etc?
In all fairness, in this day and age of the petrolhead, i feel an increasing pressure from friends, forums etc to lap the ring if you are to consider yourself a true "enthusiast"! I have a friend who has become somewhat addicted and he now almost dismiss's any ones credibility during discussions (cars, tracks) because, "they have not been to the ring" as thats what it is all about!
With the comments shared on here, friends views and egos from their trips, i am becoming increasingly less likely to visit, which is a shame as it does sound a fantastic place! However, it isnt ALL about the ring imho.
So maybe, the ring will return to its once great uncrowded venue as it will become increasingly restrictive due to cost or even its reputation. I think the only way i would like to go now is with a private booked scheme which is way out of my reach , cost wise, for a days driving!
So i asked with naivety, would the increased popularity over say the last decade or so not increased the chances of the ring being successful? More people through the gates, more revenue etc?
In all fairness, in this day and age of the petrolhead, i feel an increasing pressure from friends, forums etc to lap the ring if you are to consider yourself a true "enthusiast"! I have a friend who has become somewhat addicted and he now almost dismiss's any ones credibility during discussions (cars, tracks) because, "they have not been to the ring" as thats what it is all about!
With the comments shared on here, friends views and egos from their trips, i am becoming increasingly less likely to visit, which is a shame as it does sound a fantastic place! However, it isnt ALL about the ring imho.
So maybe, the ring will return to its once great uncrowded venue as it will become increasingly restrictive due to cost or even its reputation. I think the only way i would like to go now is with a private booked scheme which is way out of my reach , cost wise, for a days driving!
The problem is one of short-termism. Those running it are only interested in short-term returns as that's what they're bonused on and that's what will get them the next big job in a couple of years.
So...they don't care about the image/reputation, from a long-term perspective. If tourists stop coming because they've made it so difficult, well so what - the 'brand image' of the 'ring will survive for a decade at least, by which point they'll be long-gone.
TF days - let's say they get 10 cars on a minute when the gates are open (avg 10min lap = 100 cars on-track...conservative but not massively so). Open for, allowing for typical closures, 7 or 8 hours a day. So 10 x 60 x 7 = 4,200 cars @ say €22 (multiple ticket prices) = €90k a day. Call it a round €100k
How much does a manufacturer pay for exclusive use per day? If it's anything around there, they'll take the mfr booking as it's less hassle for them and less wear on the circuit.
If it's less than €50k then you've got to question WHY they're doing this, unless it's a short-term thing aimed at driving the local businesses OUT of business, so when they ramp it up again they're the only real room/food game in town...
So...they don't care about the image/reputation, from a long-term perspective. If tourists stop coming because they've made it so difficult, well so what - the 'brand image' of the 'ring will survive for a decade at least, by which point they'll be long-gone.
TF days - let's say they get 10 cars on a minute when the gates are open (avg 10min lap = 100 cars on-track...conservative but not massively so). Open for, allowing for typical closures, 7 or 8 hours a day. So 10 x 60 x 7 = 4,200 cars @ say €22 (multiple ticket prices) = €90k a day. Call it a round €100k
How much does a manufacturer pay for exclusive use per day? If it's anything around there, they'll take the mfr booking as it's less hassle for them and less wear on the circuit.
If it's less than €50k then you've got to question WHY they're doing this, unless it's a short-term thing aimed at driving the local businesses OUT of business, so when they ramp it up again they're the only real room/food game in town...
havoc said:
The problem is one of short-termism. Those running it are only interested in short-term returns as that's what they're bonused on and that's what will get them the next big job in a couple of years.
So...they don't care about the image/reputation, from a long-term perspective. If tourists stop coming because they've made it so difficult, well so what - the 'brand image' of the 'ring will survive for a decade at least, by which point they'll be long-gone.
TF days - let's say they get 10 cars on a minute when the gates are open (avg 10min lap = 100 cars on-track...conservative but not massively so). Open for, allowing for typical closures, 7 or 8 hours a day. So 10 x 60 x 7 = 4,200 cars @ say €22 (multiple ticket prices) = €90k a day. Call it a round €100k
How much does a manufacturer pay for exclusive use per day? If it's anything around there, they'll take the mfr booking as it's less hassle for them and less wear on the circuit.
If it's less than €50k then you've got to question WHY they're doing this, unless it's a short-term thing aimed at driving the local businesses OUT of business, so when they ramp it up again they're the only real room/food game in town...
I don't disagree but also don't forget the running costs of TF are much higher: car park marshalls; office staff; ticket shop staff; people on cleanup duty; and I don't suppose the ambulance and recovery vehicles sit there for free. I imagine insurance for a TF day is also rather more.So...they don't care about the image/reputation, from a long-term perspective. If tourists stop coming because they've made it so difficult, well so what - the 'brand image' of the 'ring will survive for a decade at least, by which point they'll be long-gone.
TF days - let's say they get 10 cars on a minute when the gates are open (avg 10min lap = 100 cars on-track...conservative but not massively so). Open for, allowing for typical closures, 7 or 8 hours a day. So 10 x 60 x 7 = 4,200 cars @ say €22 (multiple ticket prices) = €90k a day. Call it a round €100k
How much does a manufacturer pay for exclusive use per day? If it's anything around there, they'll take the mfr booking as it's less hassle for them and less wear on the circuit.
If it's less than €50k then you've got to question WHY they're doing this, unless it's a short-term thing aimed at driving the local businesses OUT of business, so when they ramp it up again they're the only real room/food game in town...
havoc said:
The problem is one of short-termism. Those running it are only interested in short-term returns as that's what they're bonused on and that's what will get them the next big job in a couple of years.
So...they don't care about the image/reputation, from a long-term perspective. If tourists stop coming because they've made it so difficult, well so what - the 'brand image' of the 'ring will survive for a decade at least, by which point they'll be long-gone.
TF days - let's say they get 10 cars on a minute when the gates are open (avg 10min lap = 100 cars on-track...conservative but not massively so). Open for, allowing for typical closures, 7 or 8 hours a day. So 10 x 60 x 7 = 4,200 cars @ say €22 (multiple ticket prices) = €90k a day. Call it a round €100k
How much does a manufacturer pay for exclusive use per day? If it's anything around there, they'll take the mfr booking as it's less hassle for them and less wear on the circuit.
If it's less than €50k then you've got to question WHY they're doing this, unless it's a short-term thing aimed at driving the local businesses OUT of business, so when they ramp it up again they're the only real room/food game in town...
I think your numbers are more conservative than you think . 3 barriers open all the time at the GH. 4 on busy days, plus the 1 at Adenau... Bikes get through the barriers quicker than cars.... So...they don't care about the image/reputation, from a long-term perspective. If tourists stop coming because they've made it so difficult, well so what - the 'brand image' of the 'ring will survive for a decade at least, by which point they'll be long-gone.
TF days - let's say they get 10 cars on a minute when the gates are open (avg 10min lap = 100 cars on-track...conservative but not massively so). Open for, allowing for typical closures, 7 or 8 hours a day. So 10 x 60 x 7 = 4,200 cars @ say €22 (multiple ticket prices) = €90k a day. Call it a round €100k
How much does a manufacturer pay for exclusive use per day? If it's anything around there, they'll take the mfr booking as it's less hassle for them and less wear on the circuit.
If it's less than €50k then you've got to question WHY they're doing this, unless it's a short-term thing aimed at driving the local businesses OUT of business, so when they ramp it up again they're the only real room/food game in town...
tertius said:
I don't disagree but also don't forget the running costs of TF are much higher: car park marshalls; office staff; ticket shop staff; people on cleanup duty; and I don't suppose the ambulance and recovery vehicles sit there for free. I imagine insurance for a TF day is also rather more.
What insurance ?(And that has always been my issue with the Ring)
IIRC the Manufacturers pay a fraction of what is raised on TF days - albeit with far less hassle.
BUT the whole bloody point of all the hotels etc was to ATTRACT tourists in.
Kill the TF days and there will be even fewer people in the area.
redgriff500 said:
tertius said:
I don't disagree but also don't forget the running costs of TF are much higher: car park marshalls; office staff; ticket shop staff; people on cleanup duty; and I don't suppose the ambulance and recovery vehicles sit there for free. I imagine insurance for a TF day is also rather more.
What insurance ?(And that has always been my issue with the Ring)
IIRC the Manufacturers pay a fraction of what is raised on TF days - albeit with far less hassle.
BUT the whole bloody point of all the hotels etc was to ATTRACT tourists in.
Kill the TF days and there will be even fewer people in the area.
redgriff500 said:
tertius said:
Insurance for the operators - I assume they need to have things like public liability and employers liability insurance, etc..
It's a toll road.I don't think there would be much of a premium nor would it change between who's using it.
Even when it is a toll road the operator is a company not the state - I'd be very surprised indeed if they did not need some level of insurance cover as most companies do when supplying services to the public.
I would have thought given the difference between numbers of people involved - I guess fewer than 100 on a manufacturer test day and potentially thousands during TF, I'd certainly expect the premium to differ but I certainly have no evidence wither way.
In any event it was only a passing comment about the possible differences between the cost of running one type of day over the other.
Stedman said:
I'm genuinely worried that I will never have the pleasure of driving on the Nurburgring. It seems I am not alone 
May I ask why you think that?As a for instance it is open next weekend - 9-4.30 both days - unless it snows of course ...
Go then, job done.
PS I don't really suggest you go in January, but I was making a serious point. And the snow comment wasn't a joke at all, forecast is a bit chilly for next weekend.
tertius said:
Stedman said:
I'm genuinely worried that I will never have the pleasure of driving on the Nurburgring. It seems I am not alone
May I ask why you think that?As a for instance it is open next weekend - 9-4.30 both days - unless it snows of course ...
Go then, job done.
PS I don't really suggest you go in January, but I was making a serious point. And the snow comment wasn't a joke at all, forecast is a bit chilly for next weekend.
Doesn't seem like it will be an option to drive around it in the next 2/3 years with crazy levels of debt and owners that seem to be doing a 'head in the sand'.
Stedman said:
tertius said:
Stedman said:
I'm genuinely worried that I will never have the pleasure of driving on the Nurburgring. It seems I am not alone
May I ask why you think that?As a for instance it is open next weekend - 9-4.30 both days - unless it snows of course ...
Go then, job done.
PS I don't really suggest you go in January, but I was making a serious point. And the snow comment wasn't a joke at all, forecast is a bit chilly for next weekend.
Doesn't seem like it will be an option to drive around it in the next 2/3 years with crazy levels of debt and owners that seem to be doing a 'head in the sand'.
I would be very surprised if it were not. Apart from anything else the "owners" are leaseholders, the circuit is ultimately owned by the state and it is a fairly important part of the local economy.
As I said in my first post in this thread, it is still only January, realistically the season kicks off at Easter - if the calendar is still looking as sparse come March then it may be time to start to get concerned.
Tango13 said:
What would it take to resurect the Sudschleife? It's only about a third the length of it's bigger brother but it was in its day a very challenging track.
Impossible, the GP circuit was built over part of it. Some sections do remain, some now ordinary roads, some disused, some gone completely.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff