RE: PH Blog: The new 3 Series as mile-muncher
Discussion
j123 said:
Max_Torque said:
But, and it's a big well rounded but, the 3 series as still the benchmark for driver rewards in its segment. No, it's no Caterham obviously, but on that odd occasion when the road is twisty and lightly traffic'd, the 3'er ups its game and becomes a really rather good thing indeed. BMW's steadfast RWD and 50:50 mass distribution shines through, and although 99.9% of drivers of that car will never find it, beyond the normal 7/10's is a cracking car at the limit. Effectively the natural balance of the car works, unlike VW/Audi's and Mercs where they start to show there unnatural balance.
The fact that you can buy a decent looking, comfortable, fast car with excellent fuel economy, drive 700miles down a motorway, but then drift it round an invitingly empty roundabout (assuming you have the skills ;-) mean a lot to me.
Add the fact that the interior now justifies the price tag (Ain't about the cha-ching, cha-ching, Aint't about the ba-bling, ba-bling) makes it a hard car to ignore in its sector!
YOu should read this months article on the new 3 series by Bovington at CAR- must be his last story for them, he says its great but actually on limit the electric steering goes all empty on him and he loses the ability to know whats its doing and where the car is going- after all these years I call that poor engineering if one is designing the ultimate driving machine. Seems like the ONLY auto scriblers who give this level of honesty about how cars really drive are the semi orginal EVO team, Barker, Meaden and Bovington and thats about it. Very sad. jThe fact that you can buy a decent looking, comfortable, fast car with excellent fuel economy, drive 700miles down a motorway, but then drift it round an invitingly empty roundabout (assuming you have the skills ;-) mean a lot to me.
Add the fact that the interior now justifies the price tag (Ain't about the cha-ching, cha-ching, Aint't about the ba-bling, ba-bling) makes it a hard car to ignore in its sector!
When you drive a car on the limit for a short period of time (like a journo etc) then steering feel is fairly important as a feedback mechanism. For the rest of us, whilst it is nice to have it is not that important to the vast majority of buyers in this segment. Coming from a small tyred 306gti-6 to my current 330d i noticed the lack of steering feedback (not a lack or accuracy or linearity or response, all better than the gti-6). Effectively at first i could not commit the car to corners (particularly fast ones) without wondering about the grip levels, as the steering weighting and chatter was not feeding back the front tyres loading. However, after a few months of ownership i learnt what the car was doing and could do, and no longer notice the lack of feedback. Instead i like the mature feel of stability and calm, it actually encourages you to drive in a smooth and progressive fashion.
So would i trade a bit more steering feel for a bit less fuel economy, frankly, no!
I've met few keen drivers who do not like steering feel.
Importantly steering feel can be very useful when you REALLY don't know the surface of the road, because even when you gain "confidence" in your electric steering car, just because you believe it will stick DOES NOT mean it will. Its great to have the extra feel all the time.
electric steering steering adds about 2 mpg over Hydraulic systems and less on the motorway. Indeed most savings come from engines, weight, computer systems and the tranny. j
Importantly steering feel can be very useful when you REALLY don't know the surface of the road, because even when you gain "confidence" in your electric steering car, just because you believe it will stick DOES NOT mean it will. Its great to have the extra feel all the time.
electric steering steering adds about 2 mpg over Hydraulic systems and less on the motorway. Indeed most savings come from engines, weight, computer systems and the tranny. j
I have no doubt the new 335i can achieve BMWs quoted mpg figures. I can manage nearly 40mpg in my pre LCI 335i with the less efficient twin turbo set-up. The run above was mainly motorway but included a fair bit of city driving too. Kept the engine below 3k rev for most of the trip. Ofcourse the problem is with such a lovely engine it's a crime not to exploit it!!! My current mpg reading is 22mpg but it's nice to know if needed my 335i can be as economical/boring as a oil burner
obscene said:
V6Alfisti said:
Still find it incredible how BMW manage to get that level of fuel economy from a petrol. Witch craft!
This.Especially being an E46 owner where the consumption is alot higher than the newer models (obviusly!). Technology is incredible.
j123 said:
I've met few keen drivers who do not like steering feel.
Importantly steering feel can be very useful when you REALLY don't know the surface of the road, because even when you gain "confidence" in your electric steering car, just because you believe it will stick DOES NOT mean it will. Its great to have the extra feel all the time.
electric steering steering adds about 2 mpg over Hydraulic systems and less on the motorway. Indeed most savings come from engines, weight, computer systems and the tranny. j
But the 3 series is not really a car for "keen" drivers...... (that would be an Elise for example, or a Boxter etc etc etc). If you stopped 100 BMW drivers in the street and asked "what do you think about the steering feel in this car" I expect that less than 2 would actually be able to give a sensible answer.Importantly steering feel can be very useful when you REALLY don't know the surface of the road, because even when you gain "confidence" in your electric steering car, just because you believe it will stick DOES NOT mean it will. Its great to have the extra feel all the time.
electric steering steering adds about 2 mpg over Hydraulic systems and less on the motorway. Indeed most savings come from engines, weight, computer systems and the tranny. j
BMW had to make a choice, better CO2 or some more steering feel. In 2012 that is a no brainer.
I take it you have benchmarked EPAS / EHPAS / HPAS both in the real world and over the mandated drive cycles in order to come up with your 2mpg figure? (the fact you have put "less" on the Mway suggests you don't understand the mechanism for fuel economy benefits with EPAS?)
(and of course it's not just an improvement in CO2 from EPAS, it's a cheaper BOM, shortened build time/complexity and the potential for improved electronic feature content (which a lot of buyers want) that the manufacturer are after)
BMW sold something like 1.2M cars last year, and i'm pretty certain that they gained more sales by their low CO2 emissions than they lost due to "poor steering feel".
Unfortunately, in 2012, this is the world we live in. Petrolheads, people who place driving dynamics above everything else are a dying breed imo. Luckily enough for those people, cars like the Elise still exist.
(However, sales of such cars suggest that no matter how many people come on a forum and type "i wouldn't buy that new 3 series because its steering is crap) the number who back that statement up by then buying a true sports car is tiny?)
Max_Torque said:
But the 3 series is not really a car for "keen" drivers...... (that would be an Elise for example, or a Boxter etc etc etc). If you stopped 100 BMW drivers in the street and asked "what do you think about the steering feel in this car" I expect that less than 2 would actually be able to give a sensible answer.
BMW had to make a choice, better CO2 or some more steering feel. In 2012 that is a no brainer.
I take it you have benchmarked EPAS / EHPAS / HPAS both in the real world and over the mandated drive cycles in order to come up with your 2mpg figure? (the fact you have put "less" on the Mway suggests you don't understand the mechanism for fuel economy benefits with EPAS?)
(and of course it's not just an improvement in CO2 from EPAS, it's a cheaper BOM, shortened build time/complexity and the potential for improved electronic feature content (which a lot of buyers want) that the manufacturer are after)
BMW sold something like 1.2M cars last year, and i'm pretty certain that they gained more sales by their low CO2 emissions than they lost due to "poor steering feel".
Unfortunately, in 2012, this is the world we live in. Petrolheads, people who place driving dynamics above everything else are a dying breed imo. Luckily enough for those people, cars like the Elise still exist.
(However, sales of such cars suggest that no matter how many people come on a forum and type "i wouldn't buy that new 3 series because its steering is crap) the number who back that statement up by then buying a true sports car is tiny?)
Agree with you there and despite the fact that steering feel on the straight ahead has been lacking in every 3 series since the E30, I still think they are streets ahead of their rivals from VAG and Benz...it's actually a great car to throw around..on the way to work. The point being, there is no better allrounderBMW had to make a choice, better CO2 or some more steering feel. In 2012 that is a no brainer.
I take it you have benchmarked EPAS / EHPAS / HPAS both in the real world and over the mandated drive cycles in order to come up with your 2mpg figure? (the fact you have put "less" on the Mway suggests you don't understand the mechanism for fuel economy benefits with EPAS?)
(and of course it's not just an improvement in CO2 from EPAS, it's a cheaper BOM, shortened build time/complexity and the potential for improved electronic feature content (which a lot of buyers want) that the manufacturer are after)
BMW sold something like 1.2M cars last year, and i'm pretty certain that they gained more sales by their low CO2 emissions than they lost due to "poor steering feel".
Unfortunately, in 2012, this is the world we live in. Petrolheads, people who place driving dynamics above everything else are a dying breed imo. Luckily enough for those people, cars like the Elise still exist.
(However, sales of such cars suggest that no matter how many people come on a forum and type "i wouldn't buy that new 3 series because its steering is crap) the number who back that statement up by then buying a true sports car is tiny?)
RichB said:
spacegrey335 said:
va1o said:
MrGeoff said:
It is just another saloon and doesn't really set the world on fire. Skoda would be just as good and cheaper for the job of a motorway cruiser.
Is this a serious comment? 
Edited by RichB on Saturday 11th February 21:35
Obviously, each to their own! Some petrolheads will like the "old school" classics Ferrari F40 other petrolheads might like Gallardos. However, I don't think they would say .....ohh its just another sports car.
Max_Torque said:
Poor engineering? Or maybe BMW decided that fuel economy was a more important metric than pure steering feel.
When you drive a car on the limit for a short period of time (like a journo etc) then steering feel is fairly important as a feedback mechanism. For the rest of us, whilst it is nice to have it is not that important to the vast majority of buyers in this segment. Coming from a small tyred 306gti-6 to my current 330d i noticed the lack of steering feedback (not a lack or accuracy or linearity or response, all better than the gti-6). Effectively at first i could not commit the car to corners (particularly fast ones) without wondering about the grip levels, as the steering weighting and chatter was not feeding back the front tyres loading. However, after a few months of ownership i learnt what the car was doing and could do, and no longer notice the lack of feedback. Instead i like the mature feel of stability and calm, it actually encourages you to drive in a smooth and progressive fashion.
So would i trade a bit more steering feel for a bit less fuel economy, frankly, no!
A strange thing that not many people know - only the 335i and 335d have fully hydraulic steering with NO electrical assistance. it means much meatier steering feel and much better feedback. I'm really not sure why BMW did this - why not put it on all their models?!When you drive a car on the limit for a short period of time (like a journo etc) then steering feel is fairly important as a feedback mechanism. For the rest of us, whilst it is nice to have it is not that important to the vast majority of buyers in this segment. Coming from a small tyred 306gti-6 to my current 330d i noticed the lack of steering feedback (not a lack or accuracy or linearity or response, all better than the gti-6). Effectively at first i could not commit the car to corners (particularly fast ones) without wondering about the grip levels, as the steering weighting and chatter was not feeding back the front tyres loading. However, after a few months of ownership i learnt what the car was doing and could do, and no longer notice the lack of feedback. Instead i like the mature feel of stability and calm, it actually encourages you to drive in a smooth and progressive fashion.
So would i trade a bit more steering feel for a bit less fuel economy, frankly, no!
I've heard pretty bad things about the F10 5 series steering, even with the added upgrade. Even fanboy owners are seriously complaining. Really hope the new 3 has "proper" steering. It makes a huge difference - very few cars have good steering feel any more.
And the run flats too - utterly cr4p and spoiled the car. Got rid of mine two months after buying the car. In fact I've just put new rears on again (got 14k this time - not bad!). CSC3s - utterly brilliant tyres.
Seems some posts on here are missing the point. The 3 series is a fantastic car vs others in it's class, it's steering is great vs others in it's class, it's engine's great vs others in it's class, it's mpg is great vs others in it's class, ec...etc...etc..Put simply it's the best car in it's class.
I consider myself a petrolhead and love nothing more than balls out performance cars, but have you ever tried taking the family on holiday in an Elise or found yourself praising a Caterhams handling whilst on the way back from doing the weekly shop.
I'm in the process of ordering a new 320d sport spec as my new company car. On the handling front my Jedi has it licked but as for leg room, wind noise, comfort, boot space etc..the Beemer is much better but I suppose that's not a fair comparisson because...... they are not in the same class!
I consider myself a petrolhead and love nothing more than balls out performance cars, but have you ever tried taking the family on holiday in an Elise or found yourself praising a Caterhams handling whilst on the way back from doing the weekly shop.
I'm in the process of ordering a new 320d sport spec as my new company car. On the handling front my Jedi has it licked but as for leg room, wind noise, comfort, boot space etc..the Beemer is much better but I suppose that's not a fair comparisson because...... they are not in the same class!
rajkohli81 said:
MrGeoff said:
It is just anoter saloon and doesn't really set the world on fire. Skoda would be just as good and cheaper for the job of a motorway cruiser.
Saw a new 320d in the flesh today and it looked great. Edited by MrGeoff on Saturday 11th February 14:29
My daily runner is 320d M Sport Coupe and I bought it for the £90 road tax and hoping it would get near the claimed 60 mpg...
BMW, I hate to say it but they are so far out in front, it is just not funny, though 39.2 mpg from a 306 bhp turbo petrol is never going to happen, theoretically, engineering wise I am sure it is possible but highly unlikely if a human is behind the weheel, especially one that frequents this particular website.
RichB said:
loomx said:
...the MPG figures were enough to pull my out of a Diesel
Pull your what out? This sounds like the greatest all rounder in this segment. I know we'll end up seeing plenty of these on our roads, but that's a testament to how good BMW are at making such cars. Despite pointless (to 99% of us) criticisms of at the limit steering feel, this is shaping up to be another best selling class leader.
loomx said:
Love the new F30, and the MPG figures were enough to pull my out of a Diesel for a daily driver. Picking up my F30 328i in may 
can't wait!
Congratulations! l went to look at the new 3 series today and was very impressed by both the claimed fuel economy and 0-60 time of the 328i. What sort of mpg did you see during your test drive? can't wait!(and it's only a tad behind on economy, claiming 39.2mpg in automatic guise).
So any news on what it actually does then? one of the posters early on stated that he can get 40 Mpg, out of his earlier car at an average of 59 mph? BUT that its currently reading 22 Mpg - unless of course he does bank jobs thats pretty crap in my book.
So any news on what it actually does then? one of the posters early on stated that he can get 40 Mpg, out of his earlier car at an average of 59 mph? BUT that its currently reading 22 Mpg - unless of course he does bank jobs thats pretty crap in my book.
Oddball RS said:
(and it's only a tad behind on economy, claiming 39.2mpg in automatic guise).
So any news on what it actually does then? one of the posters early on stated that he can get 40 Mpg, out of his earlier car at an average of 59 mph? BUT that its currently reading 22 Mpg - unless of course he does bank jobs thats pretty crap in my book.
If I did bank jobs i'll be driving a M5 not a 335iSo any news on what it actually does then? one of the posters early on stated that he can get 40 Mpg, out of his earlier car at an average of 59 mph? BUT that its currently reading 22 Mpg - unless of course he does bank jobs thats pretty crap in my book.
. My current commute is about 5 miles through stop and go traffic. My old 350Z use to return 17mpg for the same trip, so the 335i is actually pretty good in comparision, considering it has 10% more BHP, and 3 more seats. Have to say starting to like the look of the new 3 Series...did have my heart set on a F10 M5 to replace the 335i but cannot wait to see the new M3
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