RE: PH Blog: all you need
Discussion
I agree with the 160-170bhp per tonne being the sweet-spot for a daily driver. My old (220bhp ish) e36 328i seemed about perfect, and I'm sure that's in the same ballpark.
I find I spend the vast majority of my time wanting a smooth, leisurely, quiet drive with enough power to make overtaking easy. Something thats rewarding when you are in the mood to press on is a bonus. The 328i was just about perfection.
My old Passat was another favourite. PD130, a useful amount of power for the size of car. Mine had heated velour that was simply cosetting to sit in. By far the best mile muncher I've owned.
Out of the 29 cars I've owned over the past 10 years, the Passat is the car I regret selling the most, closely followed by the 328i. Both are sorely missed.
Oh, and nothing says "move over" at 90 leptons better than wearing a high vis jacket driving a white Passat Estate with a dog guard and a few road cones in the boot...
Looked quite fresh, inside and out, considering the 155k on the clocks. I chopped it in for a 2.0TFSI Octavia vRS which I found competent, but utterly boring!
I find I spend the vast majority of my time wanting a smooth, leisurely, quiet drive with enough power to make overtaking easy. Something thats rewarding when you are in the mood to press on is a bonus. The 328i was just about perfection.
My old Passat was another favourite. PD130, a useful amount of power for the size of car. Mine had heated velour that was simply cosetting to sit in. By far the best mile muncher I've owned.
Out of the 29 cars I've owned over the past 10 years, the Passat is the car I regret selling the most, closely followed by the 328i. Both are sorely missed.
Oh, and nothing says "move over" at 90 leptons better than wearing a high vis jacket driving a white Passat Estate with a dog guard and a few road cones in the boot...
Looked quite fresh, inside and out, considering the 155k on the clocks. I chopped it in for a 2.0TFSI Octavia vRS which I found competent, but utterly boring!
Edited by BigTom85 on Monday 13th February 11:09
I couldn't agree more.
Lightweight cars don't need silly power figures to be fun.
If you combine this article with the C63AMG video you have hit on the trio of perfection; Power, weight and tyre contact patch.
The most fun car I've driven was my Morris Minor, closely followed by a Vauxhall VX220 turbo.
It's not all about the silly numbers, at some point you've got to drive the thing.
Lightweight cars don't need silly power figures to be fun.
If you combine this article with the C63AMG video you have hit on the trio of perfection; Power, weight and tyre contact patch.
The most fun car I've driven was my Morris Minor, closely followed by a Vauxhall VX220 turbo.
It's not all about the silly numbers, at some point you've got to drive the thing.
Dagnut said:
Everyone's talking about fun and power to weight.............he's talking a about a diesel saloon.
No, people who dont undestand what he is talking about are talking about power to weight. People who know and understand that to do the M1 commute, or M25 commute or M3, A3 commute or M6 commute, every morning and know that your journey will be to the minute the same time as yesterday and tomorrow, no matter how you try and drive...they know exactly what he is talking about. People who have to travel 100+miles every day between sites and for work, up and down the major roads of the UK know exactly what he is talking about. The Passat is King in the UK at this game. Its why work car parks are stuffed with them. Not so much the debate, but the jury went out and decided this some years ago.You have hit on to it with your Toyota discussion and then yesterday with James on Top Gear.
The issue is less of outright power and more of accessibility. If your car needs to be given a track to max it then it is too much. We need slimmer tyres, revy engine and moderate power.
We need to find the fun in motoring again and it's not in a 500bhp saloon car.
The issue is less of outright power and more of accessibility. If your car needs to be given a track to max it then it is too much. We need slimmer tyres, revy engine and moderate power.
We need to find the fun in motoring again and it's not in a 500bhp saloon car.
DJRC said:
No, people who dont undestand what he is talking about are talking about power to weight. People who know and understand that to do the M1 commute, or M25 commute or M3, A3 commute or M6 commute, every morning and know that your journey will be to the minute the same time as yesterday and tomorrow, no matter how you try and drive...they know exactly what he is talking about. People who have to travel 100+miles every day between sites and for work, up and down the major roads of the UK know exactly what he is talking about. The Passat is King in the UK at this game. Its why work car parks are stuffed with them. Not so much the debate, but the jury went out and decided this some years ago.
I thought all that was self-evident 
so moved onto the more interesting side-discussion.Good topic.
I have a theory that a car comes alive with a certain amount of power. But it depends on the car. I like engines with a well filled out torque delivery (that doesn't mean huge low rev grunt), yet it feels happier/faster the higher you rev it. Good examples of a slowish car that is good fun is the E30 and E36 318is. Other fun cars that are not really quick are both the E30 M3 and the Mercedes 190 2.3-16 Cosworth.
I've driven many powerful cars and to be honest it is more often frustrating than fun.
I don't really agree with the comments that you can thrash a normal car without worrying. Even a 140bhp 318is on decent tyres is capable of hitting 120mph regularly on a typical b-road.
I have a theory that a car comes alive with a certain amount of power. But it depends on the car. I like engines with a well filled out torque delivery (that doesn't mean huge low rev grunt), yet it feels happier/faster the higher you rev it. Good examples of a slowish car that is good fun is the E30 and E36 318is. Other fun cars that are not really quick are both the E30 M3 and the Mercedes 190 2.3-16 Cosworth.
I've driven many powerful cars and to be honest it is more often frustrating than fun.
I don't really agree with the comments that you can thrash a normal car without worrying. Even a 140bhp 318is on decent tyres is capable of hitting 120mph regularly on a typical b-road.
BigTom85 said:
I agree with the 160-170bhp per tonne being the sweet-spot for a daily driver. My old (220bhp ish) e36 328i seemed about perfect, and I'm sure that's in the same ballpark.
I ran an e36 328i for a while (until it ate its own engine) - lovely balance of grip and power that seemed just about right on public roads. I haven't driven a new petrol BM, but it was a hell of a lot easier and more rewarding to drive on our roads than the E92 diesel MSport which I found to be too firm and over-tyred. Better steering feel too.My scirocco comes out about 163bhp per tonne and I wonder sometimes if that's a bit much on a day to day basis. A few seconds foot to the floor and you're easily to the national speed limit.
It's one of the things that makes me miss my old swift sport and be tempted by a new one (about 130bhp per tonne) - more opportunity to actually enjoy it without being into silly speeds.
It's one of the things that makes me miss my old swift sport and be tempted by a new one (about 130bhp per tonne) - more opportunity to actually enjoy it without being into silly speeds.
BigTom85 said:
I agree with the 160-170bhp per tonne being the sweet-spot for a daily driver. My old (220bhp ish) e36 328i seemed about perfect, and I'm sure that's in the same ballpark.
I find I spend the vast majority of my time wanting a smooth, leisurely, quiet drive with enough power to make overtaking easy. Something thats rewarding when you are in the mood to press on is a bonus. The 328i was just about perfection.
My old Passat was another favourite. PD130, a useful amount of power for the size of car. Mine had heated velour that was simply cosetting to sit in. By far the best mile muncher I've owned.
Out of the 29 cars I've owned over the past 10 years, the Passat is the car I regret selling the most, closely followed by the 328i. Both are sorely missed.
Oh, and nothing says "move over" at 90 leptons better than wearing a high vis jacket driving a white Passat Estate with a dog guard and a few road cones in the boot...
Looked quite fresh, inside and out, considering the 155k on the clocks. I chopped it in for a 2.0TFSI Octavia vRS which I found competent, but utterly boring!
I did a few laps of the 'ring in a PD130 Passat. That was a lot of fun, surprisingly quick too. I find I spend the vast majority of my time wanting a smooth, leisurely, quiet drive with enough power to make overtaking easy. Something thats rewarding when you are in the mood to press on is a bonus. The 328i was just about perfection.
My old Passat was another favourite. PD130, a useful amount of power for the size of car. Mine had heated velour that was simply cosetting to sit in. By far the best mile muncher I've owned.
Out of the 29 cars I've owned over the past 10 years, the Passat is the car I regret selling the most, closely followed by the 328i. Both are sorely missed.
Oh, and nothing says "move over" at 90 leptons better than wearing a high vis jacket driving a white Passat Estate with a dog guard and a few road cones in the boot...
Looked quite fresh, inside and out, considering the 155k on the clocks. I chopped it in for a 2.0TFSI Octavia vRS which I found competent, but utterly boring!
Edited by BigTom85 on Monday 13th February 11:09
Interesting that you article echoes the sentiments of James May on Top gear last night (Sunday 12th Feb). He dared to suggest that a Fiat Panda with skinny tyres gave you more smiles per mile on a day to day real world basis, than the latest Nurburgring edition of the VXL Corsa. Of course, he was ridiculed by Clarkson (but then that was as predictable as the sun rising each morning), but i agree with him.
My daily drive is 10 year old Clio 172 cup, and its perfect for me. Ok it doesnt have the toys, but then for me it doesnt need to. I do 8 miles to work in a morning and all of it along Yorkshire country roads. This means that its perfect for me.
I look at the likes of the new M6, and cant help but think that manufacturers have gotten lost in a cloud of there own tyre smoke. They seem to be obsessed with churning our bigger and more powerful cars year on year, and yet seem not to realise that contary to all of the TV adverts we live in a world of congestion and crowded roads. Roads were 500-700bhp can rarely be used.
I hope one day that car makers will cotton on to the notion that they could make an absolute mint, by providing simple, efficient and above all fun cars that are a hoot to drive everyday.
My daily drive is 10 year old Clio 172 cup, and its perfect for me. Ok it doesnt have the toys, but then for me it doesnt need to. I do 8 miles to work in a morning and all of it along Yorkshire country roads. This means that its perfect for me.
I look at the likes of the new M6, and cant help but think that manufacturers have gotten lost in a cloud of there own tyre smoke. They seem to be obsessed with churning our bigger and more powerful cars year on year, and yet seem not to realise that contary to all of the TV adverts we live in a world of congestion and crowded roads. Roads were 500-700bhp can rarely be used.
I hope one day that car makers will cotton on to the notion that they could make an absolute mint, by providing simple, efficient and above all fun cars that are a hoot to drive everyday.
Good article - Exactly why I kept the Clio 172 Cup for 8 years! Near as damn-it 170 horse in 1 tonne.
However... I've moved on now as there are other factors which influence 'regular' driving. Image and Client's perception being one/two of them.
However... I've moved on now as there are other factors which influence 'regular' driving. Image and Client's perception being one/two of them.
Edited by FlavaDave on Monday 13th February 11:54
I personally agree with much that has been said.
I am not impressed by big numbers by the manufacturers, and feel it is a lot of brand's Pr and Marketing departments flexing in the mirror with sequined posing pouches on.
I have been lucky enough to drive some very nice cars with lots of power, but the roads and levels of traffic have almost rendered them irrelevant. 'High power' and 'everyday' are becoming mutually exclusive. It is the scenario of Ferraris (etc) in Monaco. It starts to get to a point where preconceptions are made about seeing an individual in high performance vehicle in traffic. If it is uneccessary people start to think 'you' (the driver) are a c*ck. I am not personally deriding parties with nice cars. But is getting to a point where there is a time and a place, mainly a track... where a new M5 will cook itself, do a set of tyres and get spanked by lesser more track focused machinery, so, it could be said is pretty irrelevant in this environment also.
I am perscribed to the classic front (but still like modern stuff), as they have character, you get enjoyment at sane speeds, you in something that isn't ripping a hole in your wallet through depreciation, is cheap to insure and gets positive comments where very you are.
Just my own thoughts... Lotus, are straying from this path, which ultimately might be a mistake.......
I am not impressed by big numbers by the manufacturers, and feel it is a lot of brand's Pr and Marketing departments flexing in the mirror with sequined posing pouches on.
I have been lucky enough to drive some very nice cars with lots of power, but the roads and levels of traffic have almost rendered them irrelevant. 'High power' and 'everyday' are becoming mutually exclusive. It is the scenario of Ferraris (etc) in Monaco. It starts to get to a point where preconceptions are made about seeing an individual in high performance vehicle in traffic. If it is uneccessary people start to think 'you' (the driver) are a c*ck. I am not personally deriding parties with nice cars. But is getting to a point where there is a time and a place, mainly a track... where a new M5 will cook itself, do a set of tyres and get spanked by lesser more track focused machinery, so, it could be said is pretty irrelevant in this environment also.
I am perscribed to the classic front (but still like modern stuff), as they have character, you get enjoyment at sane speeds, you in something that isn't ripping a hole in your wallet through depreciation, is cheap to insure and gets positive comments where very you are.
Just my own thoughts... Lotus, are straying from this path, which ultimately might be a mistake.......
redgriff500 said:
My 300bhp Griffith wasn't happy unless it was going 120+ and so was very frustrating to drive.
Never liked to drive without warming up and then making sure, at least once or twice, the full rev range was used (had this OCD obsession about scored bores from not reaching TDC) which even in the dry meant wheelspin in anything other than 3rd gear and 100mph+... Exciting but a bit like the relationship between Inspector Clouseau and Kato - sometimes too eventful.
As for 163bhp per ton; it tells me what I already know - my Disco 3 is well-underpowered.
I really like these old VAG PD TDI lumps. The other half runs about in a 130,000 mile 52 plate Golf GT TDI 130, and engine wise, it's really quite surprising. Not fast, obviously, and very grumbly and coarse even by diesel standards if you try and extend it, but I personally think the way it punches the car along at impossibly low revs, with a complete lack of effort and drama is brilliant. It's one of those engines that is easily capable of propelling you 15-20 mph faster than you actually think you are going because it just doesn't need any revs or stoking to do what it does. Of course, neither does it have any character or emotional quality, but then in a runabout, does that matter?
Not an engine I dream about or get unduly excited about, but one I respect a heck of a lot. 50 real world mpg and 'run between services' reliability are the icing on the cake.
Not an engine I dream about or get unduly excited about, but one I respect a heck of a lot. 50 real world mpg and 'run between services' reliability are the icing on the cake.
Tend to agree with your blog Chris. My mapped A3 2.0 TDI has enough power to put a smile on my face when I choose to bury the pedal as does the quizzical expression on the other drivers face as it takes off. It's also quite gentle on the wallet returning an average of 50MPG on the run to work.
Agree! I picked up a tdi 130 last year as its punchy enough for most driving and can happily sit on the motorway all day. They do have their faults though, particularly the water leak which I managed to track and solve. Once its above 40 its really a case of leave it in 6th and drive it as an auto.
When you jump into your weekend car though, it can take some getting used to sometimes and going from the tdi to the MR2T definitely requires a different driving style but its all good fun.
Actually, if I figure out my hp/ton average between the two cars I own it comes out just around the 165 mark, so I think you are spot on in all respects
When you jump into your weekend car though, it can take some getting used to sometimes and going from the tdi to the MR2T definitely requires a different driving style but its all good fun.
Actually, if I figure out my hp/ton average between the two cars I own it comes out just around the 165 mark, so I think you are spot on in all respects
I think the appropriate amount of specific power depends partly on the type of driving and type of roads you regularly use. For example I have a 140bhp afla diesel, this is perfectly reasonable for the usual mix of town/m/way driving and on the A/B road is fine until you get held up by the tourist doing a steady 45-50 on a road with relativly short straights.
I previously had a Chimaera 450, and I alsoways said that in terms of perfromance that had enough for the road. It enabled me to carry out those overtakes quicker and safer, but I didn't feel it was excessive. However the Chim was never happy sat in the traffic jam or in town. I now have a XKR this gives me the same level of straight line grunt to overtake and yet is perfectly happy to sit cruising on the m/way or in that enevitable traffic jam. For me the perferct compromise.
My conclusion around 200bhp/ton (i.e. not far from the original number)is enough for a good mix of driving, unless you are on track. If you never head to the countryside and stick to congested towns and m/ways then the 100bhp passat will do just fine.
I previously had a Chimaera 450, and I alsoways said that in terms of perfromance that had enough for the road. It enabled me to carry out those overtakes quicker and safer, but I didn't feel it was excessive. However the Chim was never happy sat in the traffic jam or in town. I now have a XKR this gives me the same level of straight line grunt to overtake and yet is perfectly happy to sit cruising on the m/way or in that enevitable traffic jam. For me the perferct compromise.
My conclusion around 200bhp/ton (i.e. not far from the original number)is enough for a good mix of driving, unless you are on track. If you never head to the countryside and stick to congested towns and m/ways then the 100bhp passat will do just fine.
This is a great article and one I often ponder.
I had a 996 GT3 left hooker and after a drive to lithuania and back in it (got 185 out of it) I sold it. I simply couldn't use any of the performance in pot-hole ridden, camera infested SE england. If I was lucky enough to be able to have a genuine spare car in the stable I'd have kept it for trips to the ring / Le Mans etc, but I can't.
I now run a new boxster S (I am ready for the abuse) with PDK (bring it on) and love it. The Mrs is happy as Larry pottering around with the hood down in auto mode, and when I drive it I can't ever remember thinking 'I wish I had more power'. On UK roads it has more than enough poke, and on a run to scotland and back across country it was brilliant plus gave over 34MPG. 2 boots helped, although I cant get my mountain bike in it (like I could in the GT3 - no roll cage).
On a track I'd want more beans I'm sure.
Yeah 100bhp might not quite be enough, especially if you've loaded it with 3 passengers, but decent torque and another 50bhp or so should do you in most situations.
I had a 996 GT3 left hooker and after a drive to lithuania and back in it (got 185 out of it) I sold it. I simply couldn't use any of the performance in pot-hole ridden, camera infested SE england. If I was lucky enough to be able to have a genuine spare car in the stable I'd have kept it for trips to the ring / Le Mans etc, but I can't.
I now run a new boxster S (I am ready for the abuse) with PDK (bring it on) and love it. The Mrs is happy as Larry pottering around with the hood down in auto mode, and when I drive it I can't ever remember thinking 'I wish I had more power'. On UK roads it has more than enough poke, and on a run to scotland and back across country it was brilliant plus gave over 34MPG. 2 boots helped, although I cant get my mountain bike in it (like I could in the GT3 - no roll cage).
On a track I'd want more beans I'm sure.
Yeah 100bhp might not quite be enough, especially if you've loaded it with 3 passengers, but decent torque and another 50bhp or so should do you in most situations.
So what's the biggest differential in bhp (or bhp/tonne) in folks daily/weekend drives?
I'll start off, 55bhp and circa 840kg in the week (mk2 Golf 1.3), 355bhp and circa 1380kg at the w/e (CSL)
Golf is a fantastic little rat car, but now that I'm using the motorways a little I'd like a bit more power (and 5 speeds!)... so I have a mk2 1.6 with a mighty 75bhp IIRC that I'll be putting back on the road!
I'll start off, 55bhp and circa 840kg in the week (mk2 Golf 1.3), 355bhp and circa 1380kg at the w/e (CSL)
Golf is a fantastic little rat car, but now that I'm using the motorways a little I'd like a bit more power (and 5 speeds!)... so I have a mk2 1.6 with a mighty 75bhp IIRC that I'll be putting back on the road!
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