RE: Chris Harris video: BMW M5 vs Nissan GT-R
Discussion
Diamond blue said:
J4CKO said:
Love both cars, but think it would be a GTR, they are both about as far away from the Chapman ethos but two tonnes for the BMW, that is almost as heavy as an Audi A4 diesel cabrio.
I would be interested to see whether it is possible to enjoy these cars on UK roads, when I say enjoy I mean use the power as I expect the BMW is fantastic for soothing the miles away, less so the GTR than the sound of it but in reality you cant emulate much of what Mr Harris was doing in the video in terms of going sideways and they are so bloody fast you are in NIP territory with the slightest squeeze of the throttle, would love to try one to find out but I would spend every day waiting for the NIP to plop onto the mat.
I dunno, maybe I am getting old but I cant really think of anywhere other than a track day I would be able to enjoy something like this, the BMW looks too big and heavy for UK country roads, less so the Nissan but it is still huge and heavy. I tend to bottle out below 100 mph on any given road, not because the car wont go faster, just down want six points.
Would be interested to hear from owners of mega stuff like this if they do manage to use the performance and whether they have had any run in's with the law ?
It is entirely possible to use the performance of cars like these on the road. Its by neccessity and good sense limited to shortish blasts of course. They may do 190 mph but thats not safe or sensible. The acceleration of something like the GTR is addictive and very accessible because of its amazing traction.I would be interested to see whether it is possible to enjoy these cars on UK roads, when I say enjoy I mean use the power as I expect the BMW is fantastic for soothing the miles away, less so the GTR than the sound of it but in reality you cant emulate much of what Mr Harris was doing in the video in terms of going sideways and they are so bloody fast you are in NIP territory with the slightest squeeze of the throttle, would love to try one to find out but I would spend every day waiting for the NIP to plop onto the mat.
I dunno, maybe I am getting old but I cant really think of anywhere other than a track day I would be able to enjoy something like this, the BMW looks too big and heavy for UK country roads, less so the Nissan but it is still huge and heavy. I tend to bottle out below 100 mph on any given road, not because the car wont go faster, just down want six points.
Would be interested to hear from owners of mega stuff like this if they do manage to use the performance and whether they have had any run in's with the law ?
If you do stupid things you'll get in trouble but its entirely possible to get the thrill of their capabilities without being thrown in prison or disappearing in a fiery ball of metal.
That's the main thing I guess, when you look at the acceleration, this was the original as well, new one is faster I guess, must be so easy to end up going at serious speed, fantastic but I would be a gibbering wreck, amazes me that people tune them, cant comprehend 500 plus bhp not being quick enough. I guess it is down to how hard you squeeze the throttle but it must be so tempting. Do many people do track days in them ?
0-30 1.2
0-40 1.7
0-50 2.4
0-60 3.2
0-70 4.2
0-80 5.3
0-90 6.5
0-100 8
0-110 9.7
0-120 11.6
0-130 14.1
Pity they have put the prices up, it was a bargain, it still make cooking 911's with which it competes on price look comparatively slow, its just part of me wonders, after always thinking more = better that we have hit the peak, is there anyone with a GTR that really thinks it is too slow ? it will out drag a 458, it cant be far off a Mclaren MP whatsit, what do you have to go to to make one look ordinary, a Koenigsegg ?
Still, would love to try one, another year or two before its a possibility.
J4CKO said:
Or not get caught
That's the main thing I guess, when you look at the acceleration, this was the original as well, new one is faster I guess, must be so easy to end up going at serious speed, fantastic but I would be a gibbering wreck, amazes me that people tune them, cant comprehend 500 plus bhp not being quick enough. I guess it is down to how hard you squeeze the throttle but it must be so tempting. Do many people do track days in them ?
0-30 1.2
0-40 1.7
0-50 2.4
0-60 3.2
0-70 4.2
0-80 5.3
0-90 6.5
0-100 8
0-110 9.7
0-120 11.6
0-130 14.1
Pity they have put the prices up, it was a bargain, it still make cooking 911's with which it competes on price look comparatively slow, its just part of me wonders, after always thinking more = better that we have hit the peak, is there anyone with a GTR that really thinks it is too slow ? it will out drag a 458, it cant be far off a Mclaren MP whatsit, what do you have to go to to make one look ordinary, a Koenigsegg ?
Still, would love to try one, another year or two before its a possibility.
I think the 2012 car is 2.8s to 60.That's the main thing I guess, when you look at the acceleration, this was the original as well, new one is faster I guess, must be so easy to end up going at serious speed, fantastic but I would be a gibbering wreck, amazes me that people tune them, cant comprehend 500 plus bhp not being quick enough. I guess it is down to how hard you squeeze the throttle but it must be so tempting. Do many people do track days in them ?
0-30 1.2
0-40 1.7
0-50 2.4
0-60 3.2
0-70 4.2
0-80 5.3
0-90 6.5
0-100 8
0-110 9.7
0-120 11.6
0-130 14.1
Pity they have put the prices up, it was a bargain, it still make cooking 911's with which it competes on price look comparatively slow, its just part of me wonders, after always thinking more = better that we have hit the peak, is there anyone with a GTR that really thinks it is too slow ? it will out drag a 458, it cant be far off a Mclaren MP whatsit, what do you have to go to to make one look ordinary, a Koenigsegg ?
Still, would love to try one, another year or two before its a possibility.
Its traction and composure make it so quick in the real world BUT as mentioned in this thread its ride is very firm and its wide. That means on bumpy , narrow roads a good hot hatch like an RS Focus or an RS Megane would keep up easily enough.
Its Soooo tunable though. You think 500 bhp is enough and it is but when 550 is available for £600 and 5 mins with a laptop and a sweet sounding 620hp or so for a couple of £k its very tempting.
I would say in the real world that any old numpty like myself would be faster in a GTR than any supercar. i can't talk about MP4s but I reckon the Scuderia is no faster in a straight line and really struggling in anything less than ideal dry conditions by comparison.
JMo22 said:
Does anybody else think those red seats in the M5 look HORRENDOUS? Way too flabby and I also never think an interior looks premium when the steering wheel is a completely different colour to the seats..clearly not bespoke in any way. The new Boxster does better for far less money and I'm sure many others do too. 
Also while I'm at it 2 tonnes is a joke. Doesn't "M" stand for motorsport? It must be truck racing! Only motorsport I can think of with 2 tonne vehicles. Anybody else have suggestions?
I was in a new M5 - and the seats are amazing. Boxster seat nice but read dash is bokeAlso while I'm at it 2 tonnes is a joke. Doesn't "M" stand for motorsport? It must be truck racing! Only motorsport I can think of with 2 tonne vehicles. Anybody else have suggestions?
Edited by JMo22 on Thursday 16th February 00:37
Edited by JMo22 on Thursday 16th February 00:38
Incase you didn’t notice the boxster is a small 2 seater mid-engined convertible - hardly an M5 competitor
Doh, the M5 is heavy this is no surprise as its a large saloon laden with all the gadgets and luxury, safety and refinement of a S Class so of course its going to be heavy.
The GTR is a more overtly harsh and noisy sports car and smaller in size with tiny rear seats etc but it weighs but it 1734kg
But it was a Great vid.
And it proves the people who said the GTR make the M6 obsolete wrong. The M6 will be very similar steer to the M5. Both great cars as Chris says but both totally different and saying the GTR makes an M5/M6/991 because it’s faster and cheaper it simply a ridiculous statement
I think the M5 is so big now I'd just get a S Class or 7 series and be done with it...I know they have always been heavy the E39 was 1800kg, but the big saloons now are so capable it kind of makes it redundant...I doubt you would notice any real world performance difference between this and the S65 or 760
D200 said:
I was in a new M5 - and the seats are amazing. Boxster seat nice but read dash is boke
Incase you didn’t notice the boxster is a small 2 seater mid-engined convertible - hardly an M5 competitor
Doh, the M5 is heavy this is no surprise as its a large saloon laden with all the gadgets and luxury, safety and refinement of a S Class so of course its going to be heavy.
The GTR is a more overtly harsh and noisy sports car and smaller in size with tiny rear seats etc but it weighs but it 1734kg
But it was a Great vid.
And it proves the people who said the GTR make the M6 obsolete wrong. The M6 will be very similar steer to the M5. Both great cars as Chris says but both totally different and saying the GTR makes an M5/M6/991 because it’s faster and cheaper it simply a ridiculous statement
I dont think anybody is suggesting that the GTR makes the M5 and forthcoming M6 obsolete. They are as you say very different. But if you think the M5 or M6 is remotely as effective as a performance car you're mistaken. The GTR rides poorly and the rear seats require the front seat occupants to compromise but not everybody has 4/5 adults in the car very often. Maybe 5-10% of the time. It has a decent boot and its a pretty decent cabin IMO. The M5 looks exactly the same as 1,000s and 1,000s of other F10 5 Series BMW's. On the road the GTR has much more presence. Something about its stance.Incase you didn’t notice the boxster is a small 2 seater mid-engined convertible - hardly an M5 competitor
Doh, the M5 is heavy this is no surprise as its a large saloon laden with all the gadgets and luxury, safety and refinement of a S Class so of course its going to be heavy.
The GTR is a more overtly harsh and noisy sports car and smaller in size with tiny rear seats etc but it weighs but it 1734kg
But it was a Great vid.
And it proves the people who said the GTR make the M6 obsolete wrong. The M6 will be very similar steer to the M5. Both great cars as Chris says but both totally different and saying the GTR makes an M5/M6/991 because it’s faster and cheaper it simply a ridiculous statement
The Nissan comes loaded as standard, the BMW has an options list the length of your arm and as someone suggested, the first owner will suffer horrendous initial depreciation.
M5 for me with black exhaust tips & a 520d badge on the back & a G-power stage one tune (650bhp!).
I do love the GTR but it's a toy & you just no the eyes that be are going to be paying close attention. Also I think my mum might find it hard clambering in & out of those back seats!
Were the weight issue is concerned I'm not too bothered. The M5 is an everyday car which means it has to work in all types of weather conditions. Like standing water on the motorway with a 40mph cross wind. Think about it.......
I would rather have a car that cuts through puddles than one that floats over them.
Pulling up at a business meeting in a GTR.......Not shore I want to be labeled.
Great test Chris.
I do love the GTR but it's a toy & you just no the eyes that be are going to be paying close attention. Also I think my mum might find it hard clambering in & out of those back seats!
Were the weight issue is concerned I'm not too bothered. The M5 is an everyday car which means it has to work in all types of weather conditions. Like standing water on the motorway with a 40mph cross wind. Think about it.......
I would rather have a car that cuts through puddles than one that floats over them.
Pulling up at a business meeting in a GTR.......Not shore I want to be labeled.
Great test Chris.
Edited by Big Six on Thursday 16th February 16:52
Diamond blue said:
I dont think anybody is suggesting that the GTR makes the M5 and forthcoming M6 obsolete. They are as you say very different. But if you think the M5 or M6 is remotely as effective as a performance car you're mistaken. The GTR rides poorly and the rear seats require the front seat occupants to compromise but not everybody has 4/5 adults in the car very often. Maybe 5-10% of the time. It has a decent boot and its a pretty decent cabin IMO. The M5 looks exactly the same as 1,000s and 1,000s of other F10 5 Series BMW's. On the road the GTR has much more presence. Something about its stance.
The Nissan comes loaded as standard, the BMW has an options list the length of your arm and as someone suggested, the first owner will suffer horrendous initial depreciation.
People on the thread about the M6 were saying the GTR makes it obsolete as it’s faster and cheaperThe Nissan comes loaded as standard, the BMW has an options list the length of your arm and as someone suggested, the first owner will suffer horrendous initial depreciation.
I am saying they are different cars and they target audience is different, agreed. Both are useable everyday cars but as Harris says you would far rather spend more time in the M5 as the GTR would tire you due to its harshness, bad ride, refinement etc. I know someone who has a GTR and it’s a pure weekend car he rarely used, he incidentally has an E39 M5 as one of his everyday cars.
As for styling, well it’s subjective. Some people think the GTR is a vulgar etc [I love them myself] and would think the M5 is a nicer looking car [most females;) I saw 2 M5’s of 2 different colours - and they stand out from the normal 5 series. There are not ‘exactly the same as 1,000s and 1,000s of other F10 5 Series’. Anyway actually this is the whole point and appeal of performance saloons like M5's and E63 - the fact they look discreet but more menacing and butch saloon but have near supercar pace is the appeal. Not everyone wants a flashy look at me sports car they are afraid to park anywhere in case it gets damaged and end up driving only 1 or 2 thousand miles a year.
I didn’t say the M5 is an effective as a performance car as the GTR. But what does this mean anyway? Lapping the ‘ring in 7mins 20secs or whatever when piloted by an expert racer? With the GTR how often will its full potential be used on a road? I.e. how often will someone be driving this car on any road at total maximum attack taking every corner as fast as possible? This would be extremely differicult and dangerous to do, and I would say its 99.99% of its drivers never get anywhere near this. And even at a track day. Sure, you could lap the track faster than an M5 – or Ferrari 430 – [importantly with equal drivers] but what relevance has this? What do you win? It’s not a competition you entered; it’s supposed to be having fun. And as demonstrated by that video – and loads of road test by countless magazines – you would have more fun in an M5 or M3 or say 911 GT3. The GTR will be faster yes, but who cares. If you are really interested in laptimes and that all then you better buying something like a radical fitted with slicks and blow everyone into the weeds.
And I am not saying I don’t like the GTR or it’s pointless. It’s an amazing car, I love them and I would love to own one – but just because its extremely effective at going around corners very fast doesn’t mean it renders any car that is at all slower ‘ineffective’
D200 said:
As for styling, well it’s subjective. Some people think the GTR is a vulgar etc [I love them myself] and would think the M5 is a nicer looking car [most females;) I saw 2 M5’s of 2 different colours - and they stand out from the normal 5 series. There are not ‘exactly the same as 1,000s and 1,000s of other F10 5 Series’. Anyway actually this is the whole point and appeal of performance saloons like M5's and E63 - the fact they look discreet but more menacing and butch saloon but have near supercar pace is the appeal. Not everyone wants a flashy look at me sports car they are afraid to park anywhere in case it gets damaged and end up driving only 1 or 2 thousand miles a year.
I didn’t say the M5 is an effective as a performance car as the GTR. But what does this mean anyway? Lapping the ‘ring in 7mins 20secs or whatever when piloted by an expert racer? With the GTR how often will its full potential be used on a road? I.e. how often will someone be driving this car on any road at total maximum attack taking every corner as fast as possible? This would be extremely differicult and dangerous to do, and I would say its 99.99% of its drivers never get anywhere near this. And even at a track day. Sure, you could lap the track faster than an M5 – or Ferrari 430 – [importantly with equal drivers] but what relevance has this? What do you win? It’s not a competition you entered; it’s supposed to be having fun. And as demonstrated by that video – and loads of road test by countless magazines – you would have more fun in an M5 or M3 or say 911 GT3. The GTR will be faster yes, but who cares. If you are really interested in laptimes and that all then you better buying something like a radical fitted with slicks and blow everyone into the weeds.
I'm not disagreeing with you, I think you make some excellent points. But the ladies you refer to as preferring the looks of an M5 if they are anything like non-petrolheads of my aquaintance would simply not be able to tell it apart from the sport bodykitted 520d on the neighbours drive. Q car credentials it may well have but its a LOT of money to spend on a car that only certain enthusiasts recognize.I didn’t say the M5 is an effective as a performance car as the GTR. But what does this mean anyway? Lapping the ‘ring in 7mins 20secs or whatever when piloted by an expert racer? With the GTR how often will its full potential be used on a road? I.e. how often will someone be driving this car on any road at total maximum attack taking every corner as fast as possible? This would be extremely differicult and dangerous to do, and I would say its 99.99% of its drivers never get anywhere near this. And even at a track day. Sure, you could lap the track faster than an M5 – or Ferrari 430 – [importantly with equal drivers] but what relevance has this? What do you win? It’s not a competition you entered; it’s supposed to be having fun. And as demonstrated by that video – and loads of road test by countless magazines – you would have more fun in an M5 or M3 or say 911 GT3. The GTR will be faster yes, but who cares. If you are really interested in laptimes and that all then you better buying something like a radical fitted with slicks and blow everyone into the weeds.
Enjoying an M5 (All 5 metres plus of it) sideways is an unlikely thing for anyone to do in real life. The tyres cost over £400 each as a start. Thats OK for Chris, he's not paying the bills.
If the Nissan was simply about speed thats fair enough but its a great car to drive. Its shot through with character and its performance is so electrifying its a complete blast being in one. The M5 has as Chris says the broadest of talents. It is a full size family car, it is refined and it can pass as ordinary whilst remaining very quick, good fun (If you have the space)and it will even eke out 25mpg. If you can only have 1 car it makes a compelling case. personally, I'd choose the M3 E91 saloon for that. Big enough, Fast enough, more agile, or maybe the C63 Merc or new RS4. But the GTR is more special. Its one of the great achievements of the automotive world and has always been a huge bargain.
if you can afford a diesel hatch to go with it, the Nissan can easily serve as a 20k mile a year daily driver too.
sootyrumble said:
hairykrishna said:
j123 said:
Good video. I would be interested to hear what Chris thinks of a similarly thought provoking test a ways back where they compared the big heavy GT-R (a car which is light and agile next to the M5 in this context) and put it up against a Focus RS to wit which Autocar said on b-roads the GT_R could simply not keep up with the FORD nor would be as much fun as the FOrd. here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZL8uPemi3k&nor...
I wonder if chris would have another view on the GTR than his old colleague Frankel at Autocar. J
That's quite an odd video. They talk about the RS being faster because of 'confidence' while at the same time showing a bunch of footage of the GTR accelerating away from it out of corners like it's standing still. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZL8uPemi3k&nor...
I wonder if chris would have another view on the GTR than his old colleague Frankel at Autocar. J
Edited by j123 on Wednesday 15th February 22:20
To me its a silly video as under those conditions that RS would probably keep up with a 458 if limited to its speeds so does that make it the better car??
Diamond blue said:
I'm not disagreeing with you, I think you make some excellent points. But the ladies you refer to as preferring the looks of an M5 if they are anything like non-petrolheads of my aquaintance would simply not be able to tell it apart from the sport bodykitted 520d on the neighbours drive. Q car credentials it may well have but its a LOT of money to spend on a car that only certain enthusiasts recognize.
Enjoying an M5 (All 5 metres plus of it) sideways is an unlikely thing for anyone to do in real life. The tyres cost over £400 each as a start. Thats OK for Chris, he's not paying the bills.
If the Nissan was simply about speed thats fair enough but its a great car to drive. Its shot through with character and its performance is so electrifying its a complete blast being in one. The M5 has as Chris says the broadest of talents. It is a full size family car, it is refined and it can pass as ordinary whilst remaining very quick, good fun (If you have the space)and it will even eke out 25mpg. If you can only have 1 car it makes a compelling case. personally, I'd choose the M3 E91 saloon for that. Big enough, Fast enough, more agile, or maybe the C63 Merc or new RS4. But the GTR is more special. Its one of the great achievements of the automotive world and has always been a huge bargain.
if you can afford a diesel hatch to go with it, the Nissan can easily serve as a 20k mile a year daily driver too.
I know what you are saying and aggree with most of it.Enjoying an M5 (All 5 metres plus of it) sideways is an unlikely thing for anyone to do in real life. The tyres cost over £400 each as a start. Thats OK for Chris, he's not paying the bills.
If the Nissan was simply about speed thats fair enough but its a great car to drive. Its shot through with character and its performance is so electrifying its a complete blast being in one. The M5 has as Chris says the broadest of talents. It is a full size family car, it is refined and it can pass as ordinary whilst remaining very quick, good fun (If you have the space)and it will even eke out 25mpg. If you can only have 1 car it makes a compelling case. personally, I'd choose the M3 E91 saloon for that. Big enough, Fast enough, more agile, or maybe the C63 Merc or new RS4. But the GTR is more special. Its one of the great achievements of the automotive world and has always been a huge bargain.
if you can afford a diesel hatch to go with it, the Nissan can easily serve as a 20k mile a year daily driver too.
But GTR's are extremely eye wateringly expensive to run - i.e. – far far more expensive then a new 997 Turbo for servicing as an example. Someone on a GTR forum who has one and had a 997 previously has a price list for all the servicing and it’s mental. And while the GTR won’t depreciate as much as an M5 but now when they are over £70k they will depreciate far more heavily than when they were just over £50k, due to the fact they are so expensive to run. Plus they are far far worse mpg then an M5 or 991 etc
I see you mention a possibility of the new RS4 over an M5 - that would open up a whole new debate which I haven’t time to begin but I’m sure lots of people would have comments on this
But if I had £70k to spend, and an RS4 could cost up to 70k, and for an extra 9k you could get an M5 [as its £79k for a normal spec - the one I looked at was £79k] I would not have to think too long which of those two I would buy...
Edited by D200 on Thursday 16th February 18:07
I couldn't take my eyes off the headrest on the M5. It was like a red leather Honda Robot cuddling Chris. It's no wonder the car is so heavy, they must weigh 100kg each.
With the best roads in Britain being B roads and with the price of petrol being 140+ and soon to go up to 150+ I think they are both dinosaurs. Which is not a put down, both fantastic cars.
With the best roads in Britain being B roads and with the price of petrol being 140+ and soon to go up to 150+ I think they are both dinosaurs. Which is not a put down, both fantastic cars.
veryslowone said:
With the best roads in Britain being B roads and with the price of petrol being 140+ and soon to go up to 150+ I think they are both dinosaurs. Which is not a put down, both fantastic cars.
Fuel consumption on the GT-R is awful, I understand.Surely the M5 going to turbos and much better fuel economy is recognition of the current driving environment. The outgoing V10 (while fab in many ways) is surely the dinosaur?
Really didn't look right somehow.They are both great cars, quite surprised that the M5 is over 200Kg heavier though especially as it is not 4WD.
I find it amusing how many journos stereotypically criticize the interior quality compared to the Germans. I accept those comments on a Note or Micra but the GTR interior is more Infiniti with hoards of perfectly stitched cow as standard.
Exactly which part(s) of the interior is the problem?
I find it amusing how many journos stereotypically criticize the interior quality compared to the Germans. I accept those comments on a Note or Micra but the GTR interior is more Infiniti with hoards of perfectly stitched cow as standard.
Exactly which part(s) of the interior is the problem?
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