£5-8k. E46 330Ci vs E46 M3?

[a_bread]

Mmm, a tiny modicum of upward revision. Economic psychology is filled with examples of compartmentalisation: if I simply take out or re-classify this element of the cost then what's left seems so much cheaper or more comfortable (remember Gordon Brown?) Ultimately you could even say the petrol cost is going to be debited from your savings or from your wife's birthday account, if it makes you feel better.

I think you either acknowledge the full reality of all relevant costs, or you don't bother to analyse them at all. Anything else is a delusional waste of effort.

Sorry if this sounds very critical, but I think we all know by now that you are going for the M3, so stop any attempts to justify it, there aren't any horrible downside risks that haven't already been mentioned, and I really hope you'll have a great time with it

[Tonberry]

a_bread said:

Mmm, a tiny modicum of upward revision. Economic psychology is filled with examples of compartmentalisation: if I simply take out or re-classify this element of the cost then what's left seems so much cheaper or more comfortable (remember Gordon Brown?) Ultimately you could even say the petrol cost is going to be debited from your savings or from your wife's birthday account, if it makes you feel better.

I think you either acknowledge the full reality of all relevant costs, or you don't bother to analyse them at all. Anything else is a delusional waste of effort.

Sorry if this sounds very critical, but I think we all know by now that you are going for the M3, so stop any attempts to justify it, there aren't any horrible downside risks that haven't already been mentioned, and I really hope you'll have a great time with it

Oh and make sure you report back with pictures, OP. I do love the E46 M3.

[nsi]

Tonberry said:

a_bread said:

Mmm, a tiny modicum of upward revision. Economic psychology is filled with examples of compartmentalisation: if I simply take out or re-classify this element of the cost then what's left seems so much cheaper or more comfortable (remember Gordon Brown?) Ultimately you could even say the petrol cost is going to be debited from your savings or from your wife's birthday account, if it makes you feel better.

I think you either acknowledge the full reality of all relevant costs, or you don't bother to analyse them at all. Anything else is a delusional waste of effort.

Sorry if this sounds very critical, but I think we all know by now that you are going for the M3, so stop any attempts to justify it, there aren't any horrible downside risks that haven't already been mentioned, and I really hope you'll have a great time with it

Oh and make sure you report back with pictures, OP. I do love the E46 M3.

Lol - you lot are supposed to be helping me buy a car, not psycho-evaluate me!

The "compartmentalism" (or maybe that should be just mentalism?! lol) is based on the way I think about the running costs being in two pools
i) day to day costs
ii) one off big costs

The day to day I see as stuff like fuel/servicing etc which is stuff I pay for every month without thinking about it
The one offs I see as stuff like depreciation/breakages etc
What I don't spend on the day to day stuff is saved up, for when a big bill comes.
I guess it's the difference between what's predictable and what's unpredictable. So my analysis was aimed at trying to work out the predictable costs so I could see what I'd have left for the unpredictable costs.

man, I didn't realise I was such a basket case!! lol

[gaz1234]

Fox- said:

I'm not convinced that the M3 is only a little more to run than the 330Ci, though. The combined consumption figure is a good 7-8mpg adrift of the 330Ci - now you can say all you want about the validty of the figures, what people get but even if you dont agree with the figures I suspect the differential between them is about right. Yea, sure, people baby an M3 on the motorway and get 32mpg - but do the same in a 330Ci and you get 39-40. Somebody will pop up in a minute and say he doesnt get over 31 in his 330 - but drive like that in an M3 and you'll get much less still..

Tyres are about the only parity, really.

An Inspection 2 on a 330Ci is less than half the price of an Inspection 2 on an M3. Ok, sure, you can get the service done cheaper if you take it to an indy who'll not bother with the valve clearances or whatever but then you can take a 330Ci to an indy as well and I suspect still end up paying half the price for a service.

Also dont forget that for the price of a 2001 M3 with 7 less than careful owners and 'age related marks' you get a 2005ish facelift 330Ci with lower owners.

You may strongly disagree with me - if you do, then the answer is simple. Buy an M3

Edited by Fox- on Friday 24th February 19:29

Edited by Fox- on Friday 24th February 19:34

Fuel on a 330 @ 80mph is the same as an M3. Fact.

[gaz1234]

and the 530 is like the 330, pretty lame.
M power all the way.

[sjj84]

Fox- said:

To be honest I'm going to be deeply unpopular and get myself flamed but I think the 330Ci is just the better bet. I know that loses me internet points and I know its a totally uncool thing to suggest but the thing about the M3 is that 70% of the time in normal crap boring driving its just a 330Ci anyway. It's the same car sitting in a traffic queue. It's the same car on the Motorway at 70mph. Once you get it on the right road and open it up the M3 is HUGELY better than a 330Ci and the two cars simply don't compare but the fact you need to ask which to buy suggests to me that it's probably not going to be different enough day to day to justify the IMHO considerable extra costs involved in running one.

I tend to agree to be honest, and that was the main reason I got rid of my M3 after 20 months. I'd always wanted the M3, but at 21 costs were prohibitive so I settled for the 330ci. Once costs were more acceptable I bought the M3 at 24, however, by that stage I was fairly bored of looking at the same dashboard everyday and the change to the M3 wasn't a change far enough. Had I not owned the 330ci beforehand, I would no doubt have kept the M3 considerably longer.

The trouble is when you are considering the two cars, if things like insurance due to age aren't an influencing factor on your choice, then I think the fact that the M3 seed has already been sown you may regret buying the 330ci. However I don't think it would happen the other way, I can't see you driving along in the M3 thinking, you know what, I wish I'd bought the 330.

[Fox-]

gaz1234 said:

Fuel on a 330 @ 80mph is the same as an M3. Fact.

Well no, its not 'fact' at all is it, a two cars with such a significant difference in the combined consumption figures are not going to deliver identical fuel economy at an 80mph cruise. Sure, the figures are not the be all and end all but for that to be true you'd have to have a situation where one set of figures was fantasty la-la-land and the other set was spot on. Which would seem odd for two cars from the same manufacturer at the same point in time.

If they genuinelly did have the same fuel consumption BMW could have advertised the same CO2 emissions and kept the tree-huggers happy. There is no benefit to deliberately playing down your fuel consumption figures!

gaz1234 said:

and the 530 is like the 330, pretty lame.
M power all the way.

This is pretty daft as well. Of course neither car is 'pretty lame'. Obectively, both cars are 'pretty excellent' which was of course reflected in the press at the time they were new, as well. They cruise well, they handle nicely for the type of car they are, they have nice interiors, they have half sensible costs for that type of car.

What they are not, though, is M cars. But they are not meant to be. They are different. The M cars are harder edged, they are faster, they make more compromises in the name of outright ability and performance. This doesn't make the non M variants 'lame' (After all, they are the platforms on which the M cars are built, and you dont build a masterpeice using a dog turd) it just makes them different.

Also, they are available with a torque convertor automatic gearbox which the M power cars are not and which gives further hint as to the purpose in the range of the sub M models. Slightly less 'Sport, slightly more 'Waft'. Some people like that. Those that don't, purchase an M car instead.

It's interesting to see opinions on them change as they all get older. 5+ years ago the 330Ci was a well respected car and people recognised it for what it was - a decent, reasonably nimble Coupe. Not a sports car. Not an M3.

These days now an M3 is £10k half the internet thinks they are 'lame' becuase 'it aint M power innit'.

A shame, really.

I maintain my position that if you wake up thinking 'I really, really need an M3' then nothing but an M3 will do and a 330Ci will continue to dissapoint simply because as good as it is, and IMHO its good, it's no M3. But if you want a 3 Series Coupe and you are not sure whether you want an M3 or a 330Ci and you've drawn up a table to compare your running costs and you've run the fuel consumption through a calculator then.. buy a 330Ci.

We would also do well to remember that for the budget in the OP - £5-8k, he has the choice of an immaculate 2005ish 330Ci or a well used less than immaculate M3. For some this doesnt matter, for others it would rule the M3 out even if it had identical running costs to the 330Ci. I'd always want an absolute minter which you need to venture the other side of £10k for, M3 wise. Infact the more I think about it the more I think the budget pretty much answers this question. Can you really get a nice E46 M3 for £5-8k? Comparable to the sort of condition 330Ci the same budget buys?

I like to think its possible to have a polite and reasonable petrolhead discussion on this - after all, isnt that what we are all on PH for?

Edited by Fox- on Sunday 26th February 09:52

[a_bread]

nsi said:

man, I didn't realise I was such a basket case!! lol

Not a basket case at all. The decision is already made. Attempts to rationalise it after it is made might lend a feeling of greater comfort in what you are about to do, but won't ultimately change your course of action. Let everyone else argue amongst themselves...you've got searching to do

BTW, not that it matters, but I just noticed how little mileage you're anticipating getting out of tyres on the M3...you obviously plan to enjoy it very intensively!

[nsi]

a_bread said:

nsi said:

man, I didn't realise I was such a basket case!! lol

Not a basket case at all. The decision is already made. Attempts to rationalise it after it is made might lend a feeling of greater comfort in what you are about to do, but won't ultimately change your course of action. Let everyone else argue amongst themselves...you've got searching to do

BTW, not that it matters, but I just noticed how little mileage you're anticipating getting out of tyres on the M3...you obviously plan to enjoy it very intensively!

Thanks mate!

What mileage do you think is more realistic? I know they have an appetite for rear tyres. And contrary to the opinion of some, I'm not deliberately trying to understate costs. (Well, not consciously trying anyway - subconscious, who knows!) So if you think they'll last longer, please give me a guess to run through my figures. Tyres I'd buy are Goodyear Eagle F1's.

[Fox-]

I reckon your tyre estimates are about spot on. I only tend to get about 13-14k out of mine with 100bhp less power. If you were to get less grippy tyres sure you'd get longer life, but the F1 is an excellent choice.

[a_bread]

nsi said:

Thanks mate!

What mileage do you think is more realistic? I know they have an appetite for rear tyres. And contrary to the opinion of some, I'm not deliberately trying to understate costs. (Well, not consciously trying anyway - subconscious, who knows!) So if you think they'll last longer, please give me a guess to run through my figures. Tyres I'd buy are Goodyear Eagle F1's.

My 330Ci with Michelin Pilot Sport tended to last around 20-25k on the rear. That's with just over two thirds of the power, so an M3 is going to get through them more rapidly I would guess, but 10k seems like a massively shorter life! The Michelin are admittedly a very hard compound and renowned for long life (arguably more than offsetting their premium price), and a softer grippier rubber would have a shorter life. If you were to get through Michelins in 10k you would definitely not be getting 25mpg.

[fozzymandeus]

Apologies if this has been covered, but have you factored in the enormous costs of repairing all of the things that will be wrong on the M3 at that price; for example the big holes there will be in the chassis floor near the rear subframe?

Just a thought.

[jaedba2604]

fozzymandeus said:

Apologies if this has been covered, but have you factored in the enormous costs of repairing all of the things that will be wrong on the M3 at that price; for example the big holes there will be in the chassis floor near the rear subframe?

Just a thought.

that's not terribly insightful though is it?

OP, fyi, i've had general servicing, couple of RTAB, and two rear springs, over 2 years and 15k miles i worked out 64p a mile, no catastrophes, no 'big holes in the sub-frame' and no clutches. if tyres are wear and tear, so are bushes, clutches and servicing IMO.

[fozzymandeus]

jaedba2604 said:

that's not terribly insightful though is it?

OP, fyi, i've had general servicing, couple of RTAB, and two rear springs, over 2 years and 15k miles i worked out 64p a mile, no catastrophes, no 'big holes in the sub-frame' and no clutches. if tyres are wear and tear, so are bushes, clutches and servicing IMO.

It is helpful. I'm highlighting that a cheap E46 M3 is a risky purchase. I'd look very carefully.

[jaedba2604]

fozzymandeus said:

jaedba2604 said:

that's not terribly insightful though is it?

OP, fyi, i've had general servicing, couple of RTAB, and two rear springs, over 2 years and 15k miles i worked out 64p a mile, no catastrophes, no 'big holes in the sub-frame' and no clutches. if tyres are wear and tear, so are bushes, clutches and servicing IMO.

It is helpful. I'm highlighting that a cheap E46 M3 is a risky purchase. I'd look very carefully.

it's no more risky than a pricey M3 if you're talking about potential disasters. Diffs, clutches and subframes go at any age/mileage.

cheaper examples are potentially more risky, but that's built into the price.

your comment was, at best, glib.

[fozzymandeus]

jaedba2604 said:

it's no more risky than a pricey M3 if you're talking about potential disasters. Diffs, clutches and subframes go at any age/mileage.

cheaper examples are potentially more risky, but that's built into the price.

your comment was, at best, factual.

Corrected.

[nsi]

a_bread said:

My 330Ci with Michelin Pilot Sport tended to last around 20-25k on the rear. That's with just over two thirds of the power, so an M3 is going to get through them more rapidly I would guess, but 10k seems like a massively shorter life! The Michelin are admittedly a very hard compound and renowned for long life (arguably more than offsetting their premium price), and a softer grippier rubber would have a shorter life. If you were to get through Michelins in 10k you would definitely not be getting 25mpg.

Ok, cheers. Here's a revised estimate assuming longer tyre life and different fuel costs.

Running Costs	M3	330Ci	730d
Fuel	25.5	20.5	18.8
Tyres	6.7	4.0	5.0
Servicing	3.0	2.0	2.0
[Exclude Depreciation]
Total per mile (pence)	35.1	26.5	25.8
Costs Per Month
Miles in year (no pool car)	20000.0	20000.0	20000.0
Total cost per year (£)	7024.2	5290.9	5166.2
Total per month (£)	585.4	440.9	430.5
Diff per month (£)		(144.4)	(154.8)
Workings
Fuel:
MPG (average)	25.0	30.0	35.0
Fuel type	Super	Unleaded	Diesel
price/litre	140.0	135.0	145.0
Pence/mile	25.5	20.5	18.8
Tyres:
Cost per tyre (£)	250.0	200.0	250.0
Life in miles	15000.0	20000.0	20000.0
Pence/mile	6.7	4.0	5.0
Servicing:
Average service cost (£)	600.0	400.0	400.0
Frequency in miles	20000.0	20000.0	20000.0
Pence/mile	3.0	2.0	2.0

It's clearly not twice as expensive to run the M3, but the 330Ci would be similar to the 730d it seems.

[jaedba2604]

the disparity is greater than you're showing there chief, i can assure you. bottom line out of pocket costs is what running a car's all about - and there are consumerables that are mileage dependant that you are leaving out of your figures.

[jaedba2604]

fozzymandeus said:

Apologies if this has been covered, but have you factored in the enormous costs of repairing all of the things that will be wrong on the M3 at that price; for example the big holes there will be in the chassis floor near the rear subframe?

Just a thought.

it is not factual - you have stated that things WILL be wrong, that is not the case.

you're being deliberately contentious to try to make your point. you're probably a trainee lawyer.

edited to add, my guess on your vocation is somewhat backed up by your admission you have not read the whole thread before making a sweeping and misinformed point - i've not read the whole thread either, because i can't be ar$ed.

Edited by jaedba2604 on Sunday 26th February 18:52

[nsi]

jaedba2604 said:

the disparity is greater than you're showing there chief, i can assure you. bottom line out of pocket costs is what running a car's all about - and there are consumerables that are mileage dependant that you are leaving out of your figures.

Ok. What have I missed please?