£5-8k. E46 330Ci vs E46 M3?
Discussion
Hi there,
Basically the 1 series would be no good for me because I consider it to be too small for me. Everyone's different and there's nothing 'wrong' with a 1er by any means, it's just not for me. Maybe I didn't use the best phrase when I said "don't think it compares", what I meant by that was just that the 3 and 5 are what I'd consier to be "full sized" cars and the 1er is a "small car" in my personal opinion. (Other opinions may vary, the value of your investment can go up as well as down, no running no bombing, no heavy petting. Standard terms and conditions apply.)
Regards the M5, I have not checked out the running costs by my gut feeling would be that a heavier car with more power will cost a chunk more on fuel, brakes and tyres vs. an M3. So yeah, not actually checked but if the running costs of the M3 are justifyable I think the M5 costs of running M5 would be too high to justify to myself or the wife. The other consideration with the M5 would be that for a fixed price the M5 would be older or more miles and an M3 at the same price point.
Hope that clears my thinking up a bit? Both are good cars, but I just don't think that either of them are for me.
Cheers
Basically the 1 series would be no good for me because I consider it to be too small for me. Everyone's different and there's nothing 'wrong' with a 1er by any means, it's just not for me. Maybe I didn't use the best phrase when I said "don't think it compares", what I meant by that was just that the 3 and 5 are what I'd consier to be "full sized" cars and the 1er is a "small car" in my personal opinion. (Other opinions may vary, the value of your investment can go up as well as down, no running no bombing, no heavy petting. Standard terms and conditions apply.)
Regards the M5, I have not checked out the running costs by my gut feeling would be that a heavier car with more power will cost a chunk more on fuel, brakes and tyres vs. an M3. So yeah, not actually checked but if the running costs of the M3 are justifyable I think the M5 costs of running M5 would be too high to justify to myself or the wife. The other consideration with the M5 would be that for a fixed price the M5 would be older or more miles and an M3 at the same price point.
Hope that clears my thinking up a bit? Both are good cars, but I just don't think that either of them are for me.
Cheers
Fox- said:
To be honest I'm going to be deeply unpopular and get myself flamed but I think the 330Ci is just the better bet. I know that loses me internet points and I know its a totally uncool thing to suggest but the thing about the M3 is that 70% of the time in normal crap boring driving its just a 330Ci anyway. It's the same car sitting in a traffic queue. It's the same car on the Motorway at 70mph. Once you get it on the right road and open it up the M3 is HUGELY better than a 330Ci and the two cars simply don't compare but the fact you need to ask which to buy suggests to me that it's probably not going to be different enough day to day to justify the IMHO considerable extra costs involved in running one.
The problem is getting objective opinion. Everyone with a 330Ci will be convinced they never wanted an M3 anyway and everyone with an M3 is convinced that its worth the extra money as its more special. Both sides will defend the respective choices they made - this is only human nature.
I reckon you'll be nearly - but not quite, because obviously costs etc aside it simply isnt as good - as satisfied with a 330Ci and much more satisfied with the overall running cost element.
IMHO if an M3 is the right car you already know it and wouldnt even entertain the idea of a 330Ci. The very fact you are trying to decide between them suggests that really the 330Ci is the better choice.
Credit where it's due: that is a very insightful post. It's exactly my current dilemma. With my "sensible head" on, I know you're right - that the 330Ci would be the logical choice. But I have a nagging doubt that if I bought one, then I might regret it that little bit every now and again when I want to go playing. That said, I've the Mitsi Evo for proper playing. So maybe I'm just a little unhindged to think I need an M3 as well?The problem is getting objective opinion. Everyone with a 330Ci will be convinced they never wanted an M3 anyway and everyone with an M3 is convinced that its worth the extra money as its more special. Both sides will defend the respective choices they made - this is only human nature.
I reckon you'll be nearly - but not quite, because obviously costs etc aside it simply isnt as good - as satisfied with a 330Ci and much more satisfied with the overall running cost element.
IMHO if an M3 is the right car you already know it and wouldnt even entertain the idea of a 330Ci. The very fact you are trying to decide between them suggests that really the 330Ci is the better choice.
Edited by nsi on Friday 24th February 18:47
Fox- said:
I kinda thing the best balance, unless you are so die-hard-passionate about the car its well worth it, is to pick the car for which you simply don't notice the ongoing running costs. Feeling ouch every time it needs money spending - whether you can afford it or not - leaves a nasty taste.
Well the flipside to that would be: How would I feel about getting an MPG /almost/ as bad as an M3? Or getting service/tyre bills which are /almost/ as bad as an M3? But without the specialness of 'having an M3'.I think I mentioned on this thread that I currently drive a 7 series, the tyres/brakes/etc on that are not mega cheap to be honest, but I'd probably regret paying loads over the life of the car to fund something which it transpires I don't enjoy as much as I did when I bought it. Don't get me wrong, I'm a car nut and will always spend what needs spending. But the point is that I'd potentially feel happier about spending on the M3 bills, because I have an M3, vs spending on bills for something that wasn't as special.
Dunno if I've explained that clearly. But in a nutshell: You said it was about "you don't notice the running costs" and I was putting the counter point that maybe it's about "running costs you think are 'worth it' to have the car you want". (Because similar, but admittedly lower, running costs on a car you regret buying might actually hurt your heart that bit more, despite them hurting your wallet less.)
Cheers for the comment above.
Regards this one:
How do you get to 70p/mile anyway?
Regards this one:
Tonberry said:
Let's say the M3 costs 70p per mile to run all in (which it will).
0.70p x 20,000 miles = £14,000 per annum.
-£4500 leaves you with a £10k per year bill?
Happy with that?
I guess I'll see if I can cut down the work mileage if it costs me over 45p per mile, if they are only paying me 45p per mile. In which case I'd do 10k private, so £7k bill.0.70p x 20,000 miles = £14,000 per annum.
-£4500 leaves you with a £10k per year bill?
Happy with that?
How do you get to 70p/mile anyway?
In fact, if I get 25mpg average, then at 140p/litre that's 25p/mile in fuel cost. So over 20k miles that would be £5k.
You reckoned on £14k of cost over 20k miles, so where's the other 9k come from? 45p per mile in maintainence on top of the 25p in fuel to make 70p per mile???
Anyway, if I work on 25p/mile for fuel, and I do 10k personal and 10k business then I'll spend 0.25 * 20,000 = £5k on fuel, and get £4.5k in expenses. So I'll personally be funding the brakes/tyres/servicing and work will be funding the fuel.
(Deff need to make sure I don't hit 10k miles in a year though, as my claimable rate drops to 25p = not good!!)
You reckoned on £14k of cost over 20k miles, so where's the other 9k come from? 45p per mile in maintainence on top of the 25p in fuel to make 70p per mile???
Anyway, if I work on 25p/mile for fuel, and I do 10k personal and 10k business then I'll spend 0.25 * 20,000 = £5k on fuel, and get £4.5k in expenses. So I'll personally be funding the brakes/tyres/servicing and work will be funding the fuel.
(Deff need to make sure I don't hit 10k miles in a year though, as my claimable rate drops to 25p = not good!!)
Edited by nsi on Saturday 25th February 00:51
Here's my running costs comparison for an M3 vs. a 330Ci. I've used my best estimate of figures. If you think I'm wrong then I would like to know where I've gone wrong please. This isn't about "I'm right/you're wrong" etc, it's just about me trying to understand what I'm missing, because there's a good chance I am missing something:
Note: I've excluded depreciation and unexpected costs from this working. I'll deal with those costs as and when they arrive rather than factor them into a 'pence per mile' calculation. The way I think about cars it aids my decision making to exclude dep/unexpected bills, I know others may prefer them factored into a per mile cost, but I prefer to look at it as: "OK, this is my fixed guaranteed cost per mile, so how much £ will that leave me each month to put in savings towards paying the unexpected bills when they come in, and saving for a new car (i.e. funding the depreciation)."
Note: I've excluded depreciation and unexpected costs from this working. I'll deal with those costs as and when they arrive rather than factor them into a 'pence per mile' calculation. The way I think about cars it aids my decision making to exclude dep/unexpected bills, I know others may prefer them factored into a per mile cost, but I prefer to look at it as: "OK, this is my fixed guaranteed cost per mile, so how much £ will that leave me each month to put in savings towards paying the unexpected bills when they come in, and saving for a new car (i.e. funding the depreciation)."
| Running Costs | M3 | 330Ci |
|---|---|---|
| Fuel | 25.5 | 21.2 |
| Tyres | 8.0 | 6.0 |
| Servicing | 2.0 | 1.3 |
| [Exclude Depreciation] | ||
| Total per mile (pence) | 35.5 | 28.5 |
| Miles in year | 20000.0 | 20000.0 |
| Total per year (£) | 7090.9 | 5692.4 |
| Total per month (£) | 590.9 | 474.4 |
| Diff per month (£) | (116.5) | |
| Workings | ||
| Fuel: | ||
| MPG (average) | 25.0 | 30.0 |
| price/litre | 140.0 | 140.0 |
| Pence/mile | 25.5 | 21.2 |
| Tyres: | ||
| Cost per tyre (£) | 200.0 | 180.0 |
| Life in miles | 10000.0 | 12000.0 |
| Pence/mile | 8.0 | 6.0 |
| Servicing: | ||
| Average service cost (£) | 400.0 | 250.0 |
| Frequency in miles | 20000.0 | 20000.0 |
| Pence/mile | 2.0 | 1.3 |
I explained that I want to find the base cost, that's the point of my calculation.
Things like clutches and brake calipers and depreciation will come out of my savings account, which is topped up with money not spent on the base cost. That's just how I think about the costs. Same for depreciation, which is why it's excluded from my calc. (i.e. I'm TRYING to find the base cost, not the all in cost per mile) So that extra £1k for unexpected bills would, to me, be a savings job not a base cost job.
(And I think I have already persuaded myself on the choice - so it would take a ruinous revelation to put me off I guess.)
In light of your comments, here's a revised calc (adjusted tyres and servicing)
Things like clutches and brake calipers and depreciation will come out of my savings account, which is topped up with money not spent on the base cost. That's just how I think about the costs. Same for depreciation, which is why it's excluded from my calc. (i.e. I'm TRYING to find the base cost, not the all in cost per mile) So that extra £1k for unexpected bills would, to me, be a savings job not a base cost job.
(And I think I have already persuaded myself on the choice - so it would take a ruinous revelation to put me off I guess.)
In light of your comments, here's a revised calc (adjusted tyres and servicing)
| Running Costs | M3 | 330Ci |
|---|---|---|
| Fuel | 25.5 | 21.2 |
| Tyres | 10.0 | 6.7 |
| Servicing | 3.0 | 2.0 |
| [Exclude Depreciation] | ||
| Total per mile (pence) | 38.5 | 29.9 |
| Miles in year | 20000.0 | 20000.0 |
| Total per year (£) | 7690.9 | 5975.8 |
| Total per month (£) | 640.9 | 498.0 |
| Diff per month (£) | (142.9) | |
| Workings | ||
| Fuel: | ||
| MPG (average) | 25.0 | 30.0 |
| price/litre | 140.0 | 140.0 |
| Pence/mile | 25.5 | 21.2 |
| Tyres: | ||
| Cost per tyre (£) | 250.0 | 200.0 |
| Life in miles | 10000.0 | 12000.0 |
| Pence/mile | 10.0 | 6.7 |
| Servicing: | ||
| Average service cost (£) | 600.0 | 400.0 |
| Frequency in miles | 20000.0 | 20000.0 |
| Pence/mile | 3.0 | 2.0 |
Tonberry said:
a_bread said:
Mmm, a tiny modicum of upward revision. Economic psychology is filled with examples of compartmentalisation: if I simply take out or re-classify this element of the cost then what's left seems so much cheaper or more comfortable (remember Gordon Brown?) Ultimately you could even say the petrol cost is going to be debited from your savings or from your wife's birthday account, if it makes you feel better.
I think you either acknowledge the full reality of all relevant costs, or you don't bother to analyse them at all. Anything else is a delusional waste of effort.
Sorry if this sounds very critical, but I think we all know by now that you are going for the M3, so stop any attempts to justify it, there aren't any horrible downside risks that haven't already been mentioned, and I really hope you'll have a great time with it
I think you either acknowledge the full reality of all relevant costs, or you don't bother to analyse them at all. Anything else is a delusional waste of effort.
Sorry if this sounds very critical, but I think we all know by now that you are going for the M3, so stop any attempts to justify it, there aren't any horrible downside risks that haven't already been mentioned, and I really hope you'll have a great time with it
Oh and make sure you report back with pictures, OP. I do love the E46 M3.
The "compartmentalism" (or maybe that should be just mentalism?! lol) is based on the way I think about the running costs being in two pools
i) day to day costs
ii) one off big costs
The day to day I see as stuff like fuel/servicing etc which is stuff I pay for every month without thinking about it
The one offs I see as stuff like depreciation/breakages etc
What I don't spend on the day to day stuff is saved up, for when a big bill comes.
I guess it's the difference between what's predictable and what's unpredictable. So my analysis was aimed at trying to work out the predictable costs so I could see what I'd have left for the unpredictable costs.
man, I didn't realise I was such a basket case!! lol
a_bread said:
nsi said:
man, I didn't realise I was such a basket case!! lol
Not a basket case at all. The decision is already made. Attempts to rationalise it after it is made might lend a feeling of greater comfort in what you are about to do, but won't ultimately change your course of action. Let everyone else argue amongst themselves...you've got searching to doBTW, not that it matters, but I just noticed how little mileage you're anticipating getting out of tyres on the M3...you obviously plan to enjoy it very intensively!
What mileage do you think is more realistic? I know they have an appetite for rear tyres. And contrary to the opinion of some, I'm not deliberately trying to understate costs. (Well, not consciously trying anyway - subconscious, who knows!) So if you think they'll last longer, please give me a guess to run through my figures. Tyres I'd buy are Goodyear Eagle F1's.
a_bread said:
My 330Ci with Michelin Pilot Sport tended to last around 20-25k on the rear. That's with just over two thirds of the power, so an M3 is going to get through them more rapidly I would guess, but 10k seems like a massively shorter life! The Michelin are admittedly a very hard compound and renowned for long life (arguably more than offsetting their premium price), and a softer grippier rubber would have a shorter life. If you were to get through Michelins in 10k you would definitely not be getting 25mpg.
Ok, cheers. Here's a revised estimate assuming longer tyre life and different fuel costs.| Running Costs | M3 | 330Ci | 730d |
|---|---|---|---|
| Fuel | 25.5 | 20.5 | 18.8 |
| Tyres | 6.7 | 4.0 | 5.0 |
| Servicing | 3.0 | 2.0 | 2.0 |
| [Exclude Depreciation] | |||
| Total per mile (pence) | 35.1 | 26.5 | 25.8 |
| Costs Per Month | |||
| Miles in year (no pool car) | 20000.0 | 20000.0 | 20000.0 |
| Total cost per year (£) | 7024.2 | 5290.9 | 5166.2 |
| Total per month (£) | 585.4 | 440.9 | 430.5 |
| Diff per month (£) | (144.4) | (154.8) | |
| Workings | |||
| Fuel: | |||
| MPG (average) | 25.0 | 30.0 | 35.0 |
| Fuel type | Super | Unleaded | Diesel |
| price/litre | 140.0 | 135.0 | 145.0 |
| Pence/mile | 25.5 | 20.5 | 18.8 |
| Tyres: | |||
| Cost per tyre (£) | 250.0 | 200.0 | 250.0 |
| Life in miles | 15000.0 | 20000.0 | 20000.0 |
| Pence/mile | 6.7 | 4.0 | 5.0 |
| Servicing: | |||
| Average service cost (£) | 600.0 | 400.0 | 400.0 |
| Frequency in miles | 20000.0 | 20000.0 | 20000.0 |
| Pence/mile | 3.0 | 2.0 | 2.0 |
It's clearly not twice as expensive to run the M3, but the 330Ci would be similar to the 730d it seems.
jaedba2604 said:
the disparity is greater than you're showing there chief, i can assure you. bottom line out of pocket costs is what running a car's all about - and there are consumerables that are mileage dependant that you are leaving out of your figures.
Ok. What have I missed please?jaedba2604 said:
fozzymandeus said:
Apologies if this has been covered, but have you factored in the enormous costs of repairing all of the things that will be wrong on the M3 at that price; for example the big holes there will be in the chassis floor near the rear subframe?
Just a thought.
it is not factual - you have stated that things WILL be wrong, that is not the case.Just a thought.
you're being deliberately contentious to try to make your point. you're probably a trainee lawyer.
Fox- said:
nsi said:
Ok, cheers. Here's a revised estimate assuming longer tyre life and different fuel costs.
20k out of the rear tyres on a 330Ci? You say you are going to run Eagle F1's, you are no way going to get 20k out of them on a 330Ci and 15k out of them on an M3. I've run Eagle F1 GS-D3 and Assymetric and fitted them to other cars in the family - best life out of them is looking like 15k on the back of a lightly used Z4. On my 530i they were good for 10k. Contisport Contact 3's have yeilded about 13k or so this time, though. Even on my Ford Mondeo many years ago I didnt get much more than 10k of them on the driven wheels.But a far cry from 20k or 15k on an M3!
The Pilot Sport's are known for lasting longer - but also costing much more, so its as broad as it is long. Safe to say, do not budget on 2 rear Eagle F1's every 20k because you will be quite disappointed.
NickXX said:
330ci's don't look like this.
They do a bit, though.I think the 330Ci ClubSport looks pretty good actually. You do miss the bonnet bulge (and the power/suspension/diff/wheels/brakes of course). Actually, that got me thinking: Can anyone list the major mechanical bits which are different between the two cars? Also, how does the redline compare?
Clivey said:
nsi said:
Well yeah, but so's a vectra! Doesn't make it the right choice.
I think I'm going to go for an M3 (timing TBC) and just try to cut down my business miles a bit.
If you can afford it, go for it. I think I'm going to go for an M3 (timing TBC) and just try to cut down my business miles a bit.
- Just make sure you can please. I'd hate to see / hear of yet another M3 falling into a state of disrepair because the owner can't keep up the maintenance. I'd love to be in your position considering these two cars though.
E38Ross said:
if running costs is an issue, get the 330. please don't let another M3 turn into a poor example through poor maintenance.
I intend getting a well looked after car and then maintaining it in the manner to which it has become accustomed!! lolmboon said:
I run a E46 330i Sport 2002 and a E36 M3 Evo Convertible 1998
Fuel will be your big problem. The 330i will take unleaded where as the M3 will only take 99Ron. This straight away puts you out of pocket.
Mixed use, my Sport gets 300 miles to the tank and that was trying to make it last as well.
The M3 on the same kind of driving etc maybe 250... but costs me around £10 to £15 more to fill the tank.
My M3 on a run in 6th with cruise control on at 70MPH did get me 36 MPG which was nice, but around town your looking at 19 and under. They are terrible when cold so short jorneys will kill the fuel.
As for everything else, the M3 is light years ahead. Thats comparing the older model to the newer model. My M3 runs circles around the Sport, as my M3 is a convertible I wouldnt say it out handles the Sport but then the Sport is tight as a drum.
If I was you, I would be looking at a mapped 330d M Sport or even a Mapped 320D M sport.
The guy who owned mine from new until I had it put 40,000 miles on her in 6 months! This was 4 services and I dread to think of the other things it had.
I had a Oil service from BMW two days ago and it cost £147 which was good. I asked about a I1 and he told me it was over £600!!! I nearly fainted. My Specialist can do it for around £350.
The sport is a great car but I do wish I got a high spec diesel now as its just not quick enough to sale the M3 and does not do that many if any more MPG than the M3.
I think after owning a E46 M3 you will start modding and end up selling the Evo and tracking the M3. They are very, very good cars and love to be driven.
Cheers for the input. I do pretty long journeys, and tends to be mostly motorway when driving for work - so if I can get about 30mpg under those circumstances I'll be happy. I know it will be lower when in town or driving fast, but that's the price you pay I guess.Fuel will be your big problem. The 330i will take unleaded where as the M3 will only take 99Ron. This straight away puts you out of pocket.
Mixed use, my Sport gets 300 miles to the tank and that was trying to make it last as well.
The M3 on the same kind of driving etc maybe 250... but costs me around £10 to £15 more to fill the tank.
My M3 on a run in 6th with cruise control on at 70MPH did get me 36 MPG which was nice, but around town your looking at 19 and under. They are terrible when cold so short jorneys will kill the fuel.
As for everything else, the M3 is light years ahead. Thats comparing the older model to the newer model. My M3 runs circles around the Sport, as my M3 is a convertible I wouldnt say it out handles the Sport but then the Sport is tight as a drum.
If I was you, I would be looking at a mapped 330d M Sport or even a Mapped 320D M sport.
The guy who owned mine from new until I had it put 40,000 miles on her in 6 months! This was 4 services and I dread to think of the other things it had.
I had a Oil service from BMW two days ago and it cost £147 which was good. I asked about a I1 and he told me it was over £600!!! I nearly fainted. My Specialist can do it for around £350.
The sport is a great car but I do wish I got a high spec diesel now as its just not quick enough to sale the M3 and does not do that many if any more MPG than the M3.
I think after owning a E46 M3 you will start modding and end up selling the Evo and tracking the M3. They are very, very good cars and love to be driven.
I did used to have an E46 330d, and if it hadn't been written off then I wouldn't have changed it. However I got stung with a big bill for a new turbo after only 6m of ownership. Still sore from that, so no desire to get another one - despite it perhaps being a pretty "sensible" option!
I'm now looking exclusively for M3's and will update with pics when I find the right one!
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff