RE: Chris Harris video: McLaren MP4-12C
Discussion
Streetrod said:
So are you saying that the 1000 people so far that have got their cars or have one on order all walked into the show room with their eyes shut and are now regretting their desisions and are wishing they bought the 458 instead? Mate your constant bleating about the supposed superior looks of the 458 are now starting to sound like a sad case of fanboyism.
I have driven the 458 and on many counts it is a wonderful car, personally from a looks point of view I think it is one of Ferrari's worst efforts that will age very badly over the next few years, and this is coming from someone who is a major "FERRARI FAN"
Let’s drop the looks issue as it is a dead end street
The 1000 figure is unverified, that would mean £170million in sales, I'm sure McLaren would have trumpeted that loud and hard.I have driven the 458 and on many counts it is a wonderful car, personally from a looks point of view I think it is one of Ferrari's worst efforts that will age very badly over the next few years, and this is coming from someone who is a major "FERRARI FAN"
Let’s drop the looks issue as it is a dead end street
As to regrets or otherwise, only time will tell.
The 458 has far more showroom appeal, in almost every other respect the McLaren beats it, but people buy more on looks alone than abilities. Before the car had even been driven and in the midst of a recession the 458 had full order books, that full book was achieved largely on the way it looked. Because hardly anyone had driven one.
It has nothing to do with fanboyism, it is to do with having a toe-hold on the way the world actually works.
The only issue on the table is the looks... we agree about almost everything else!
isaldiri said:
Gene Vincent said:
Are you seriously telling me that the front of the McLaren is as striking and exciting as the F620?
Really?
I have no vendetta against any person or thing, except poor or bland design, most especially if it is really not necessary.
That Ferrari frankly looks awful although I accept that looks are subjective. IMO Ferrari's styling of their v12 front engined cars has taken a (large) backward step ever since the 550/575.Really?
I have no vendetta against any person or thing, except poor or bland design, most especially if it is really not necessary.
Gene Vincent said:
The 458 has far more showroom appeal, in almost every other respect the McLaren beats it, but people buy more on looks alone than abilities. Before the car had even been driven and in the midst of a recession the 458 had full order books, that full book was achieved largely on the way it looked. Because hardly anyone had driven one.
Before anyone including journalists had driven the 12c in late 2010, there was already a 2+ year waiting list.... RichB said:
Gene Vincent said:
The 458 has far more showroom appeal
You keep giving us your opinion but pleanty of people also think it's not a very good effort. I have a friend who saw it, on here I think, a picture nothing more, and walked in to my local dealer and ordered one within a day or two.
isaldiri said:
Gene Vincent said:
The 458 has far more showroom appeal, in almost every other respect the McLaren beats it, but people buy more on looks alone than abilities. Before the car had even been driven and in the midst of a recession the 458 had full order books, that full book was achieved largely on the way it looked. Because hardly anyone had driven one.
Before anyone including journalists had driven the 12c in late 2010, there was already a 2+ year waiting list.... You sound like the typical Ferrari sycophant who bought the anorak and hankers for the car to go with it. It will surprise you that there many people for whom Ferrari are not objects of desire, indeed I find most owners to be slightly sad, middle aged balding chaps with money but lacking in imagination. Let's just beg to differ on the looks but do accept that you are wrong in thinking everyone drools at the slightest hint of a prancing donkey badge. 
Gene Vincent said:
That is why we no longer have a car industry, insouciant, take it or leave it, attitudes to buyers.
OK, name me one... teach me a lesson.
OK, name me one... teach me a lesson.
Caterham. British. Ugly as sin but great personal service, and by the way, much quicker than most Ferraris.
Making a profit since Henry VIII
RichB said:
You sound like the typical Ferrari sycophant who bought the anorak and hankers for the car to go with it. It will surprise you that there many people for whom Ferrari are not objects of desire, indeed I find most owners to be slightly sad, middle aged balding chaps with money but lacking in imagination. Let's just beg to differ on the looks but do accept that you are wrong in thinking everyone drools at the slightest hint of a prancing donkey badge.
Far from it. I call a spade a spade and when, as Ferrari often do, they produce a pig in a suit, then I am as damning as anyone could be.I don't have an anorak, never have to my knowledge and I think the prancing donkey should only be seen on cars.
I've seen a fairly broad section of owners over the years and you do have a point about too many owners.
Looks are the debate, and not everyone likes them, ask dyed in the wool Lambo owners and many are excoriating about them as anyone out there.
When the donkey is great it's shocking, when they're bad they are equally shocking... but for all the wrong reasons.
JezHill said:
Gene Vincent said:
That is why we no longer have a car industry, insouciant, take it or leave it, attitudes to buyers.
OK, name me one... teach me a lesson.
OK, name me one... teach me a lesson.
Caterham. British. Ugly as sin but great personal service, and by the way, much quicker than most Ferraris.
Making a profit since Henry VIII
Streetrod said:
OK how about the VW Beetle, the 2CV, the MX5, the Corrolla etc etc etc. Non of thes car could ever be described as in your words "drop dead gorgeous. But all made heaps of money, were made in massive numbers and changed the world
VW Beetle... Tatra design 'stolen' by VW.2CV, nothing innovative about that car.
MX5... Lotus Elan brought up to date... not exactly innovative is it!
Streetrod said:
McLaren are about to deliver their 1000th car with the current order books looking very healthy.
Seems a lot of cars for a company that started proper full mass production, maybe 6 months ago. (~180 days) And had the very public recalls for various issues which would have eaten into production as they filtered the updates onto the line. That would be ~5 a day. I appreciate the Austrian CF part is a 4 hour process, but can they really do mass produciton like Audi do?Ref the Black 12C looking good. Well Black is a good colour for a car. A Black F458 isn't too shabby either IMO
Personally I wouldn't have either car. Don't like the McL as it's too "the engineers car" don't like the Ferrari as the interior is ridiculous.
I'll take
More honest, proper manual, rarer and therefore better
JezHill said:
Gene Vincent said:
...and what exactly is 'innovative' about a Caterham? a 50[?] year old design?
You didn't ask for the definition of 'innovative', you asked for 'british' and not 'insouciant'. I think you need to look up the definition of 'troll'. I'm ooot. Gene Vincent said:
The McLaren is a bit passe compared to this... http://jalopnik.com/5888019/ferrari-f620-gt-first-...
The queues will extend right down the road for that!
Compare and contrast... then weep for poor old Ron.
I know you're a big fan of the marque which is fair enough but you must be joking right?The queues will extend right down the road for that!
Compare and contrast... then weep for poor old Ron.
Its very derivative of its predecessor but features some of the worst swathe lines I've seen on a car recently. Too fussy by half.Rear quarter is all wrong and the best feature of the 599, the butresses are gone. Mmmm. £225k plus options.
The Mac is an attractive car. I agree the Ferrari 458 is absolutely one of Pininfarinas best (and thats a competitive field! ) but that shouldn't detract from the MP4 being a looker.
I think its looking like McLaren are selling all they want to , just as Ferrari do. They are very strong brands. The car appeals to a subtly different clientele to the 458. Sitting to the discreet side of the Ferrari with Lamborghini perhaps going the other way.
looks to me like the Mac has some tech that allows it to be a better overall car than the already advanced 458, Carbon tubs, active suspension and more. Just like in F1, if I was Ferrari I'd think I've got a fight on my hands and like F1 they may well lose more than they win.
Diamond blue said:
Gene Vincent said:
The McLaren is a bit passe compared to this... http://jalopnik.com/5888019/ferrari-f620-gt-first-...
The queues will extend right down the road for that!
Compare and contrast... then weep for poor old Ron.
I know you're a big fan of the marque which is fair enough but you must be joking right?The queues will extend right down the road for that!
Compare and contrast... then weep for poor old Ron.
Its very derivative of its predecessor but features some of the worst swathe lines I've seen on a car recently. Too fussy by half.Rear quarter is all wrong and the best feature of the 599, the butresses are gone. Mmmm. £225k plus options.
The Mac is an attractive car. I agree the Ferrari 458 is absolutely one of Pininfarinas best (and thats a competitive field! ) but that shouldn't detract from the MP4 being a looker.
I think its looking like McLaren are selling all they want to , just as Ferrari do. They are very strong brands. The car appeals to a subtly different clientele to the 458. Sitting to the discreet side of the Ferrari with Lamborghini perhaps going the other way.
looks to me like the Mac has some tech that allows it to be a better overall car than the already advanced 458, Carbon tubs, active suspension and more. Just like in F1, if I was Ferrari I'd think I've got a fight on my hands and like F1 they may well lose more than they win.
Fabulous details.
I too think the loss of the flying buttress is sad, but in doing so they have assured the 599 a place in history.
I fear the rear might be as the spy-shopped stuff and will be a let down, I hope not but am bracing myself for it.
I have text'd a mate the picture, about an hour ago, reply?.. "I'd dress up as a nun and let the pope f
k me for that!"
If the sound of the 12C road car is manufactured, why couldn't they make it sound as good as the 12C GT3?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hqdTHzOucI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hqdTHzOucI
Gene Vincent said:
Diamond blue said:
Gene Vincent said:
The McLaren is a bit passe compared to this... http://jalopnik.com/5888019/ferrari-f620-gt-first-...
The queues will extend right down the road for that!
Compare and contrast... then weep for poor old Ron.
I know you're a big fan of the marque which is fair enough but you must be joking right?The queues will extend right down the road for that!
Compare and contrast... then weep for poor old Ron.
Its very derivative of its predecessor but features some of the worst swathe lines I've seen on a car recently. Too fussy by half.Rear quarter is all wrong and the best feature of the 599, the butresses are gone. Mmmm. £225k plus options.
The Mac is an attractive car. I agree the Ferrari 458 is absolutely one of Pininfarinas best (and thats a competitive field! ) but that shouldn't detract from the MP4 being a looker.
I think its looking like McLaren are selling all they want to , just as Ferrari do. They are very strong brands. The car appeals to a subtly different clientele to the 458. Sitting to the discreet side of the Ferrari with Lamborghini perhaps going the other way.
looks to me like the Mac has some tech that allows it to be a better overall car than the already advanced 458, Carbon tubs, active suspension and more. Just like in F1, if I was Ferrari I'd think I've got a fight on my hands and like F1 they may well lose more than they win.
Fabulous details.
I too think the loss of the flying buttress is sad, but in doing so they have assured the 599 a place in history.
I fear the rear might be as the spy-shopped stuff and will be a let down, I hope not but am bracing myself for it.
I have text'd a mate the picture, about an hour ago, reply?.. "I'd dress up as a nun and let the pope f
k me for that!"Me, I'll reserve judgement until I've seen one in the flesh.
They're on form recently, Pininfarina, but there's quite a few munters in the portfolio and lots of massively overated metal too.
Gene Vincent said:
Diamond blue said:
They're on form recently, Pininfarina, but there's quite a few munters in the portfolio and lots of massively overated metal too.
On that we can agree.I'm off to join my mate down the local from where he sent the text.
Have a good evening.
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