RE: Nissan powers DeltaWing Le Mans bid
Discussion
rob.e said:
Great news!
I met the designer Ben Bowlby a couple of years ago. Very nice chap.
Hopefully the corporate backing will mean this gets the cash needed to fund a proper entry.
I can remember seeing a programme on the BBC about Ben Bowlby about 15 years ago, when he was very young indeed. I seem to recall he designed a front engined, rear drive race car for (i think) one of the 750mc formulae, whilst everyone was sticking their engines in the back.I met the designer Ben Bowlby a couple of years ago. Very nice chap.
Hopefully the corporate backing will mean this gets the cash needed to fund a proper entry.
In fairness I don't recall his design at the time being revolutionary but it was clear that he was brave at designing something a little more off the wall than his peers.
Looks like he has retained that Philosophy!
There's a lot of talk about teardrop shapes being the most aerodynamic, well teardrops (or raindrops) are actually spheroidal for most of their journey, larger ones more oblate.
A race car isn't necessarily the most aerodynamic shape. You don't get downforce for nothing, it creates drag, by not needing as much downforce over the front of the Deltawing, it creates less drag.
Frontal area isn't all of it either! If you try and push a cardboard cut out of the front picture of the Deltawing through the air at over 100mph, you will get an enormous amount of turbulent flow in it's wake, the size of the wake determines a lot of the drag.
Having a pointy front doesn't necessarily harm the overall drag coefficient of a shape, it doesn't do a bullet/fighter jet/F1 car any harm after all. Similarly abrupt 'Kamm' tails can work as well as tapered pointy tails. It's about the overall shape and how it all works together, good particle flow.
Can people please read the article and background of the car properly before making comments about 'Nissan knowing what they are doing' etc. They have come along very late in the car's development and are supplying the engine (not an important feature of this car in my mind - the point of the Deltawing is to show what it can do with a pretty ordinary/small/low output engine), a lot of cash and some Nissan logos.
Why has nobody mentioned that this car will weigh 475kg? Does that help any of you understand why it might do quite well with only 300bhp?
A race car isn't necessarily the most aerodynamic shape. You don't get downforce for nothing, it creates drag, by not needing as much downforce over the front of the Deltawing, it creates less drag.
Frontal area isn't all of it either! If you try and push a cardboard cut out of the front picture of the Deltawing through the air at over 100mph, you will get an enormous amount of turbulent flow in it's wake, the size of the wake determines a lot of the drag.
Having a pointy front doesn't necessarily harm the overall drag coefficient of a shape, it doesn't do a bullet/fighter jet/F1 car any harm after all. Similarly abrupt 'Kamm' tails can work as well as tapered pointy tails. It's about the overall shape and how it all works together, good particle flow.
Can people please read the article and background of the car properly before making comments about 'Nissan knowing what they are doing' etc. They have come along very late in the car's development and are supplying the engine (not an important feature of this car in my mind - the point of the Deltawing is to show what it can do with a pretty ordinary/small/low output engine), a lot of cash and some Nissan logos.
Why has nobody mentioned that this car will weigh 475kg? Does that help any of you understand why it might do quite well with only 300bhp?
Almost as light and powerful as a decent 'Seven' type kit-car.kambites said:
Rather more aerodynamically efficient, though. 
That's true - there's not much that isn't mind you. 
Still, it's disappointing to discover that even a radical new 'lighweight' racing car is fatter anc more bloated the classics, despite all the fancy composites and mangensium alloys we can throw at them these days.
I blame the Safety Elf.
Johnners said:
rob.e said:
Great news!
I met the designer Ben Bowlby a couple of years ago. Very nice chap.
Hopefully the corporate backing will mean this gets the cash needed to fund a proper entry.
I can remember seeing a programme on the BBC about Ben Bowlby about 15 years ago, when he was very young indeed. I seem to recall he designed a front engined, rear drive race car for (i think) one of the 750mc formulae, whilst everyone was sticking their engines in the back.I met the designer Ben Bowlby a couple of years ago. Very nice chap.
Hopefully the corporate backing will mean this gets the cash needed to fund a proper entry.
In fairness I don't recall his design at the time being revolutionary but it was clear that he was brave at designing something a little more off the wall than his peers.
Looks like he has retained that Philosophy!
It a Suzki SC1000 based, but powered by a bike engine. I think I remember the same show and it was white then.
KDIcarmad said:
Is this the car...
It a Suzki SC1000 based, but powered by a bike engine. I think I remember the same show and it was white then.
No, the Suzuki was his first car. The TV programme was about a (Mallock style) Clubman's racer he build subsequently (although the Suzuki also featured) and his gaining employment in the industry with Lola.It a Suzki SC1000 based, but powered by a bike engine. I think I remember the same show and it was white then.
Ah... some quote from an article posted on another thread on the same car...
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/thew...
To tune the aero balance we will probably have some leading edge, curvature-changing inserts that can manipulate the center of pressure. But in gross terms the aero balance of the car puts somewhere around 77 percent on the rear, and we will produce the majority of the downforce form the underbody and the rear of the car. We will use the mechanical solution of the torque vectoring or torque steer of the 'diff' to alter the balance of the car which will be completely unaffected by the proximity of another car.
And also
[i]One day in Indianapolis last month Ben Bowlby gave Bobby a thorough tour of the Delta Wing and after Bobby read my column from two weeks go he replied with remarkably little ciricism. I was amazed that Bobby's only serious doubt concerned the Delta Wng's theoretical data and its electronic diff.
"I have a problem with a lot of the data that does not exist," Unser remarked. "Sooner or later, if it's going to go forward, it will have to turn and I don't know for sure that a computer-driven transmission will be the answer. Many problems will be there. So best to wait and see if this really will be the best thing for the racing world." [/i]
So as well as the nose being light and not needing big tyres, there's definietely something going on with electronic torque vectoring!
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/thew...
To tune the aero balance we will probably have some leading edge, curvature-changing inserts that can manipulate the center of pressure. But in gross terms the aero balance of the car puts somewhere around 77 percent on the rear, and we will produce the majority of the downforce form the underbody and the rear of the car. We will use the mechanical solution of the torque vectoring or torque steer of the 'diff' to alter the balance of the car which will be completely unaffected by the proximity of another car.
And also
[i]One day in Indianapolis last month Ben Bowlby gave Bobby a thorough tour of the Delta Wing and after Bobby read my column from two weeks go he replied with remarkably little ciricism. I was amazed that Bobby's only serious doubt concerned the Delta Wng's theoretical data and its electronic diff.
"I have a problem with a lot of the data that does not exist," Unser remarked. "Sooner or later, if it's going to go forward, it will have to turn and I don't know for sure that a computer-driven transmission will be the answer. Many problems will be there. So best to wait and see if this really will be the best thing for the racing world." [/i]
So as well as the nose being light and not needing big tyres, there's definietely something going on with electronic torque vectoring!
MiseryStreak said:
There's a lot of talk about teardrop shapes being the most aerodynamic, well teardrops (or raindrops) are actually spheroidal for most of their journey, larger ones more oblate.
A race car isn't necessarily the most aerodynamic shape. You don't get downforce for nothing, it creates drag, by not needing as much downforce over the front of the Deltawing, it creates less drag.
Frontal area isn't all of it either! If you try and push a cardboard cut out of the front picture of the Deltawing through the air at over 100mph, you will get an enormous amount of turbulent flow in it's wake, the size of the wake determines a lot of the drag.
Having a pointy front doesn't necessarily harm the overall drag coefficient of a shape, it doesn't do a bullet/fighter jet/F1 car any harm after all. Similarly abrupt 'Kamm' tails can work as well as tapered pointy tails. It's about the overall shape and how it all works together, good particle flow.
Can people please read the article and background of the car properly before making comments about 'Nissan knowing what they are doing' etc. They have come along very late in the car's development and are supplying the engine (not an important feature of this car in my mind - the point of the Deltawing is to show what it can do with a pretty ordinary/small/low output engine), a lot of cash and some Nissan logos.
Why has nobody mentioned that this car will weigh 475kg? Does that help any of you understand why it might do quite well with only 300bhp?
Raindrops or teardrops are their shape because of the aerodynamic forces acting on them. A race car isn't necessarily the most aerodynamic shape. You don't get downforce for nothing, it creates drag, by not needing as much downforce over the front of the Deltawing, it creates less drag.
Frontal area isn't all of it either! If you try and push a cardboard cut out of the front picture of the Deltawing through the air at over 100mph, you will get an enormous amount of turbulent flow in it's wake, the size of the wake determines a lot of the drag.
Having a pointy front doesn't necessarily harm the overall drag coefficient of a shape, it doesn't do a bullet/fighter jet/F1 car any harm after all. Similarly abrupt 'Kamm' tails can work as well as tapered pointy tails. It's about the overall shape and how it all works together, good particle flow.
Can people please read the article and background of the car properly before making comments about 'Nissan knowing what they are doing' etc. They have come along very late in the car's development and are supplying the engine (not an important feature of this car in my mind - the point of the Deltawing is to show what it can do with a pretty ordinary/small/low output engine), a lot of cash and some Nissan logos.
Why has nobody mentioned that this car will weigh 475kg? Does that help any of you understand why it might do quite well with only 300bhp?
Look up area ruling for aircraft, it was Whitcomb iirc who prooved that the optimum aerodynamic shape increases and decreases its cross sectional area in a nice smooth curve. Look at a Hawkwer Hunter in plan view and you will see the fusalage narrow in the middle to allow for the increase in cross sectional area caused by the wings.
John Mockett designed a blunt nosed fairing for the Harris Yamaha 500GP bikes back in the 90's. It didn't work.
Tango13 said:
MiseryStreak said:
There's a lot of talk about teardrop shapes being the most aerodynamic, well teardrops (or raindrops) are actually spheroidal for most of their journey, larger ones more oblate.
Raindrops or teardrops are their shape because of the aerodynamic forces acting on them. Look up area ruling for aircraft, it was Whitcomb iirc who prooved that the optimum aerodynamic shape increases and decreases its cross sectional area in a nice smooth curve. Look at a Hawkwer Hunter in plan view and you will see the fusalage narrow in the middle to allow for the increase in cross sectional area caused by the wings.
Area ruling for aircraft, if I remember my Aero Eng. course right, was mainly a 'thing' for transonic aircraft. A shockwave-related thing. I know this car is pointy and all, but it ain't anywhere near Mach 1...
having listed to Marino Franchitti talking to Hindhaugh about this during Sebring, I think it is safe to say that this thing works, probably better than anyone expected at the moment. I doubt it will be perfect by Le Mans but in terms of terminal understeer naysayers etc etc, I think we can say no. The interesting things seems to be because the front end is relatively insignificant in terms of grip/downforce etc, through the quick bends there is little significant weight transfer/corner to corner interaction, everything is going on at the back which stays totally planted. Marino couldn't believe the speeds it will hold through the quick stuff and how incredibly stable it is as a result.
Kawasicki said:
Imagine how much better this car would be if they increased the front track, and then enclosed the whole car in aero bodywork.
If they did that it would be just another LM PrototypeKawasicki said:
I'm sorry but nobody can explain the advantage of a very narrow front track.
I'm sure their Marketing Dept can. 
Kawasicki said:
Imagine how much better this car would be if they increased the front track, and then enclosed the whole car in aero bodywork.
I'm sorry but nobody can explain the advantage of a very narrow front track.
There must be very clever reasons that were all to thick to see. A lot of people who know racing cars and how they work seem to be back the DeltaWing. We will have to wait and see how it does at Le Mans later this year. I wonder what odds you can get on this finishing the 24 hours? I hope it does well. We need new ideas like this. I'm sorry but nobody can explain the advantage of a very narrow front track.
Take F1 and ask why is this called boring? The problem is the cars unable to overtake, so they have had to create overtaking site. By use of DRS. A car like the DeltaWing is claimed to be able to run closer to the car in front opening up overtaking opportunities. That narrow front track is claimed to help this.
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