Fuel Poverty

[XitUp]

Indeed. I think that a truck driver delivering my fruit and veg to the shop has to pay the same fuel duty as me, who drives to work because I can't be arsed to get up earlier is stupid.

[Tyrewrecker]

XitUp said:

Indeed. I think that a truck driver delivering my fruit and veg to the shop has to pay the same fuel duty as me, who drives to work because I can't be arsed to get up earlier is stupid.

Yeah, but what is the answer? Discount for haulage companies? Then you enter into a world of "we deserve it as much as them"...

[martin84]

Tyrewrecker said:

Yeah, but what is the answer? Discount for haulage companies? Then you enter into a world of "we deserve it as much as them"...

Worse than that. You end up in all sorts of legal difficulty. The only solution is to lower fuel prices generally which means everybody gets a cheaper price. You cant have one price for hauliers and one price for general motorists. We went through this in another thread, State Aid etc. Anyway business is the primary user of fuel, a lorry on the road 24/7 doing 6mpg uses much more fuel in a year than my 26mpg car doing average mileage. The private motorist actually uses fk all fuel in the bigger scheme of things.

XitUp said:

No, you stated that it was your opinion. You didn't make it clear. That would require evidence.
Evidence such as the link the I posted showing that you're wrong.

I didn't read your link. I dont have to. Pure numbers prove I'm right, you're just one of those who thinks the world ends at your own gate post and I rarely waste this much time talking to such idiots. If you took 33 million vehicles off the road tomorrow the nation would grind to a halt within 1 hour. Cars are a neccessity for most, millions would be at home unemployed without them. Not to mention the fact the Government would get very annoyed if we didnt buy fuel and they'd impliment a £5,000 bicycle levy or something instead.

Using the price of fuel on its own to punish people for daring to earn a living has reached its tipping point. If you want to encourage bus/train/bicycle use and low emission cars then fuel duty alone has done the most it can do. We're beyond 'encouraging alternatives' into destroying business, stalling the economy and ruining any chances of recovery. If you want people to take up alternatives now then the only way is to make those alternatives better. Its time we stopped cutting the legs off the superior car just to make st alternatives look slightly better.

[chris7676]

johnpeat said:

Cars ARE a luxury - there are alternatives for almost every situation but people more and more believe that they are 'entitled' to their car to use as they see fit, when they like - and it's this entitlement which really irks me.

It's a civilisational achievement, paid in by customers and hampered by taxation. Some are a luxury, some are a convenience, some are a practical necessity.

Similarly with big nice "period" style house where a retired folk live and refuse to sell on and downsize... But some live in just a reasonable flats...

[Captain Muppet]

martin84 said:

If you took 33 million vehicles off the road tomorrow the nation would grind to a halt within 1 hour. Cars are a neccessity for most, millions would be at home unemployed without them.

What happens in other countries? You know, the ones where most people don't have a car?

If we had no liquid fuels left what happens then?

Sure it's a big change in lifestyle, but would we all die? I suspect not. Also I suspect there would be a huge boom in jobs involving farm labouring, pedal powered trucks, cannal boats and steam trains.

It'd be like living in the 1800's, but with decent medicine and an internet. Not the end of the world.

[martin84]

Captain Muppet said:

What happens in other countries? You know, the ones where most people don't have a car?

You mean the uncivilised world? Doesnt seem to do them much good. The UK depends on roads, other European nations may depend on them less so but even they have heavy car use.

Captain Muppet said:

If we had no liquid fuels left what happens then?

Then we use something else. Too many people make too much money out of fuel being sold to let it just 'disappear.'

Captain Muppet said:

Sure it's a big change in lifestyle, but would we all die? I suspect not. Also I suspect there would be a huge boom in jobs involving farm labouring, pedal powered trucks, cannal boats and steam trains.

It'd be like living in the 1800's, but with decent medicine and an internet. Not the end of the world.

How are we going to fund that decent medicine and internet without the money vehicles put into the economy? You can trace most £££ made in the UK back to the use of an engine in very few steps. We didnt get to the stage of decent medicine and internet overnight and we wouldnt have got there without the decades of progression before it. You cant just take one massive part out and expect everything else to function normally.

[XitUp]

martin84 said:

I didn't read your link. I dont have to. Pure numbers prove I'm right, you're just one of those who thinks the world ends at your own gate post and I rarely waste this much time talking to such idiots.

Are you being this thick on purpose?
The link that you can't be arsed to read had the 'pure numbers'. It has loads of statistics on commuting distances, you plonker.
You're the one refusing the acknowledge the facts.

I love how I say "driving is still pretty cheap and easy, and the alternatives are underfunded" and from that you extrapolate "HE WANTS ALL THE CARS OFF THE ROAD NOW!!!!!!11one". Silly moip.

[Studio117]

For 99% of people cars are a luxury. I didn't have a car for 2 years but it didn't stop me working or enjoying my life.

If you can't afford the fuel then move closer to work, where using public transport isn't an issue.

If sir wants to live in a nice detached house in a country village, then sir should be prepared to pay more to commute.

Just be smart enough to live in a place near decent transport links to your place of work and you then can use cars for pleasure.

[martin84]

XitUp said:

I love how I say "driving is still pretty cheap and easy, and the alternatives are underfunded" and from that you extrapolate "HE WANTS ALL THE CARS OFF THE ROAD NOW!!!!!!11one". Silly moip.

Because you didn't say that. You said all of the 33 million could make do without a car. That was a stupid remark.

[V8mate]

Captain Muppet said:

What happens in other countries? You know, the ones where most people don't have a car?

If we had no liquid fuels left what happens then?

Sure it's a big change in lifestyle, but would we all die? I suspect not. Also I suspect there would be a huge boom in jobs involving farm labouring, pedal powered trucks, cannal boats and steam trains.

It'd be like living in the 1800's, but with decent medicine and an internet. Not the end of the world.

Brilliant. Shall we return to self-sufficiency too? Abandon the fruits of capitalism and the division of labour?

PH really is the last place I expected such ignorant commentary.

[martin84]

V8mate said:

Brilliant. Shall we return to self-sufficiency too? Abandon the fruits of capitalism and the division of labour?

PH really is the last place I expected such ignorant commentary.

Agreed. This is what I dont understand about this website. I'm consistently derided for apparently not understanding economics but plenty here think cars are an optional toy and everything would function as normal if nobody had one.

It seems in reality I'm the only one with half a grasp on reality.

[XitUp]

martin84 said:

Because you didn't say that. You said all of the 33 million could make do without a car. That was a stupid remark.

Go on, find the quote where I said that.

[martin84]

Page four. First post.

Good day.

[XitUp]

Yeah, that's not what I said at all. I asked if you thought all of them couldn't do without their cars, I never stated that all of them could do without their cars.

Now we've cleared up that misunderstanding perhaps you'd like to act like an adult and discuss what I was actually suggesting?

[Captain Muppet]

V8mate said:

Captain Muppet said:

What happens in other countries? You know, the ones where most people don't have a car?

If we had no liquid fuels left what happens then?

Sure it's a big change in lifestyle, but would we all die? I suspect not. Also I suspect there would be a huge boom in jobs involving farm labouring, pedal powered trucks, cannal boats and steam trains.

It'd be like living in the 1800's, but with decent medicine and an internet. Not the end of the world.

Brilliant. Shall we return to self-sufficiency too? Abandon the fruits of capitalism and the division of labour?

PH really is the last place I expected such ignorant commentary.

Seriously though - would we all die without cars? No. I think we would cope. If you would like to explain how not having cars would end civilisation, rather than just accusing me of being a commy-liberal-green then maybe I'd have a better handle on how society is going to change as transport costs increase.

For what it's worth I moved closer to work so I could afford a fleet of stupid cars that bimble around in the low teens MPG, and I would reduce fuel prices by culling the stupid. I was just asking what we though would happen if there was no fuel at all, in the hope that it would generate some perspective on the neccessity or otherwise of fuel.

[Captain Muppet]

martin84 said:

Captain Muppet said:

What happens in other countries? You know, the ones where most people don't have a car?

You mean the uncivilised world? Doesnt seem to do them much good. The UK depends on roads, other European nations may depend on them less so but even they have heavy car use.

So because no "civilised" country have lost their fuel priveledges yet we just don't know? Fine. I suspect we'd all be travelling ten to a scooter, or clinging to the outside of a truck, because we'd just man-up and cope.

martin84 said:

Captain Muppet said:

If we had no liquid fuels left what happens then?

Then we use something else. Too many people make too much money out of fuel being sold to let it just 'disappear.'

Yeah, synthetic methanol can be generated just from water, air and lots of electricity - there will always be alternatives, but say we run out of oil, gas and coal (lets assume there is a finite amount of them) then electricity becomes very expensive, and maybe liquid fuels will become expensive too. Try to imagine a world where fuel is too expensive to use. Would we all be dead?

martin84 said:

Captain Muppet said:

Sure it's a big change in lifestyle, but would we all die? I suspect not. Also I suspect there would be a huge boom in jobs involving farm labouring, pedal powered trucks, cannal boats and steam trains.

It'd be like living in the 1800's, but with decent medicine and an internet. Not the end of the world.

How are we going to fund that decent medicine and internet without the money vehicles put into the economy? You can trace most £££ made in the UK back to the use of an engine in very few steps. We didnt get to the stage of decent medicine and internet overnight and we wouldnt have got there without the decades of progression before it. You cant just take one massive part out and expect everything else to function normally.

Wait, are you suggesting that we need cars to remember how to fight deseases? We need cars so the internet works? We need cars or we become savages? Sure, ambulance journeys would be slower, people would die, but society would continue.

It would be a radical change for everybody, but radical change isn't death.

[Negative Creep]

Studio117 said:

For 99% of people cars are a luxury. I didn't have a car for 2 years but it didn't stop me working or enjoying my life.

If you can't afford the fuel then move closer to work, where using public transport isn't an issue.

If sir wants to live in a nice detached house in a country village, then sir should be prepared to pay more to commute.

Just be smart enough to live in a place near decent transport links to your place of work and you then can use cars for pleasure.

Ah yes, it really is as simple as that. Whilst you're at it, might as well just go out and get a better paid job

[johnpeat]

Negative Creep said:

Ah yes, it really is as simple as that. Whilst you're at it, might as well just go out and get a better paid job

It sounds glib, but moaning about fuel costs when you've locked yourself into an expensive commute is a bit crap - it's like moaning about heating costs because you bought a georgian mansion (or a garden shed or live in your garage!!)

There are upsides to rising fuel costs - ones which Pistonheads should appreciate. All those next-to-free v6/8 barges, fewer cars on the road and so on.

Yes, I'd rather it was done without relating it to wealth - that people would simply use their cars with a BIT more sense instead of assuming it's OK to drive everywhere (stop taking your kids 1.5m to school, stop driving to the shop which is just .5m away and so on).

There's also the fact that you find yourself with the actually pleasant possibility of buying/renting something nicer, closer to work. Believe me when I say that I've commuted for over 2 hours to some jobs and not having to commute as much/at all is one of the best things you'll ever do - you cannot buy that time back...

Edited by johnpeat on Wednesday 28th March 13:11

[aclivity]

johnpeat said:

Negative Creep said:

Ah yes, it really is as simple as that. Whilst you're at it, might as well just go out and get a better paid job

It sounds glib, but moaning about fuel costs when you've locked yourself into an expensive commute is a bit crap - it's like moaning about heating costs because you bought a georgian mansion (or a garden shed or live in your garage!!)

it's not always that simple though - I used to tube / train to work, then through redundancy changed jobs to one that was 55 miles away. I did the commute for a year, before moving to a different office and a shorter commute, but for that 12 months I didn't really have much choice.

Thanks to taking voluntary redundancy again, I am now back on a bike / train / walk commute, and my life has improved even more, as I don't get stuck in traffic. You have to balance that with being stuck on what Northern Fail describe as a "train", though!

[johnpeat]

Absolutely what he says - life is a rollercoaster and you have to take the downs with the ups.

Don't ever mistake a long commute with a love of driving tho - if you can avoid a long trip to work, you absolutely should.

Then there's the people who drive less than a mile to work of course - we need to talk to them...