RE: Lotus announces partnership with Mansory

[otolith]

Thorburn said:

Problem is you can't build an S1 anymore, it wouldn't comply to all the legislation since then. The closest thing to it is the Elise CR, which people then say is underpowered.

I don't believe that's the case, given what Caterham and Ginetta are allowed to sell. Quite possible that the market for a modern S1 at the price such a car would need to cost is too limited, but that's a different proposition.

I don't think the CR is underpowered - personally I would want something a bit quicker, but that isn't the same as it being underpowered. It is not as quick as some people think any car of that price ought to be, but that does miss the point of the thing and largely reflects the odd idea people have that low volume specialist sports cars should be as cheap as souped up shopping cars. The new supercharged Elise will be the mainstream option, the CR is the Elise for tree huggers and penguin fanciers.

[Thorburn]

otolith said:

I don't believe that's the case, given what Caterham and Ginetta are allowed to sell. Quite possible that the market for a modern S1 at the price such a car would need to cost is too limited, but that's a different proposition.

True, you can't produce it as a full type approved model but you could build them through the IVA/SVA process and this only applies in the UK - they can't always sell these cars in to other markets.

[crofty1984]

DonkeyApple said:

crofty1984 said:

DonkeyApple said:

True, but the question is whether Lotus as a company was ever large enough to commence 5 projects from scratch pretty much simultaneously? When you look at the numbers, both financial and re head count, it is a fair arguement that focussing solely on one new model is probably the wise approach?

If you do a bit of Googling regarding the VVA architecture that underpins the Evora and some of the new cars, you'll see it's not as bad as you imagine.

Take 1 Esprit (Longitudinal V8), change the rear subframe and some body panels and you have an Elan (Transverse V6).

OK, that's a very crude way of describing it, but it gets the point across. It's basically 2 complete new cars then variations on a theme.

Hi Crofty,

I'm sure that engineering wise they have strong synergies, but the angle I was looking at this from is that each model must have its own team at the top to focus 100% on their specific product, ensuring that the slot for it in the market is perfectly defined and the product fits perfectly into that bracket etc.

I have a feeling that all 5 are run by the same team and I don't believe it possible for one moment that a single team can be doing the work needed to ensure the right products in the right market sectors etc.

Right, with you. I thought your point was that they were designing 5 entirely new vehicles from body in white upwards, which they're not. Never mind.

[PascalBuyens]

Captain Muppet said:

It's a two seat mid engined 4 cylinder car which weighs a few kg more than the current car (and less than the new Exige which everyone seems so excited about). Also just because the show car had a roof on it doesn't mean that the car that arrives in three years time won't be a convertible.

If the Elise will always be the S1 to you then you are already a decade out of touch with Lotus. I have an S1, I love it, but I also loved driving an S2 Elise S and Elise R.

Out of touch with Lotus since September 7th, 2006, when I sold the Elise... :-)

As I said, it'll take a lot to put me back in a Lotus... Although I like that white Mansory Evora

And BTW: I don't like the Exxige V6...

Edited by PascalBuyens on Tuesday 27th March 13:14

[PascalBuyens]

Thorburn said:

Problem is you can't build an S1 anymore, it wouldn't comply to all the legislation since then. The closest thing to it is the Elise CR, which people then say is underpowered.

I think Lotus bashing is just the new national pass time. Even when they do something people have previously said they want all people do is moan.

I don't think it's just Lotus bashing...

Astons are quite a favourite subject of people saying they "all look the same", yet no one seems to bother that a 911 has looked like a beaten beetle for the past 40 years...

TVRs are all supposed to have bad handling, yet my Tuscan Mk 1. (maybe bcs it used to be a press/movie car) handles exactly the way I want a car to handle...

I do wish Lotus all the best, but it's about time they bring out something for real, instead of selling dreams....

[Junglehop]

as above

Garrish - check
in your face - check
Extravagant - check
not to everyones taste - check
contemporanious - check
underneath it all a great car - check

[Mr Gearchange]

Doesn't count.

Everything from the 70's looked tasteless and awful.

[Thorburn]

PascalBuyens said:

I don't think it's just Lotus bashing...

Astons are quite a favourite subject of people saying they "all look the same", yet no one seems to bother that a 911 has looked like a beaten beetle for the past 40 years...

TVRs are all supposed to have bad handling, yet my Tuscan Mk 1. (maybe bcs it used to be a press/movie car) handles exactly the way I want a car to handle...

I do wish Lotus all the best, but it's about time they bring out something for real, instead of selling dreams....

True. There are some examples which grate though.
Most obvious is when the Exige V6 was announced and everyone said it was too heavy and over-priced.
The Ginetta G60 was announced and everyone fawns over it despite being the same weight as the Exige, less powerful and £10k more expensive!

[Twincam16]

crofty1984 said:

DonkeyApple said:

True, but the question is whether Lotus as a company was ever large enough to commence 5 projects from scratch pretty much simultaneously? When you look at the numbers, both financial and re head count, it is a fair arguement that focussing solely on one new model is probably the wise approach?

If you do a bit of Googling regarding the VVA architecture that underpins the Evora and some of the new cars, you'll see it's not as bad as you imagine.

Take 1 Esprit (Longitudinal V8), change the rear subframe and some body panels and you have an Elan (Transverse V6).

OK, that's a very crude way of describing it, but it gets the point across. It's basically 2 complete new cars then variations on a theme.

Indeed. All their new-generation mid-engined cars are basically variations on the same theme. So far as I know even the subframes are made of similar bits, they just need welding together in a slightly different way.

In effect, the Esprit will be an Evora with the new Wolf Zimmerman-designed Lotus V8. The Elan will be a rebodied Evora (actually if you look at the restyled Evora it already looks a lot like an Elan), and the Elise will be a simplified Evora with an off-the-shelf engine.

Well, that was the plan. I suspect that the Elise will be with us in Exige and Exige Roadster form for some time yet - and given its reception that's probably a good thing. The new V8 has been designed to be modular too, so you can whip off a pair of cylinders to make a V6. Given the Evora's bespoke-engineering price tag, it may well be that when it's revised into the Elan, the engine will basically be an Esprit's minus two cylinders.

And that's a recipe that's been done successfully before:

[Twincam16]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The Bora was what we'd nowadays call a 'Halo' model. Didn't sell that many (just over 500) but it was very highly-regarded. The Miura shifted less and that effectively relaunched Lamborghini.

The Merak was the volume-seller. They sold 1800 of them which was a lot for a company which was sold twice within its production run at a time of oil crisis and global recession. Point is, it drew on the Bora's image and development work, and managed to keep Maserati afloat until the Biturbo era.

[DonkeyApple]

Junglehop said:

as above

Garrish - check
in your face - check
Extravagant - check
not to everyones taste - check
contemporanious - check
underneath it all a great car - check

If they offered that without the black rubber bumpers and with all modern underpinnings and trim then I'd part with £60+ notes in an instant.

[Ozzie Osmond]

PascalBuyens said:

And BTW: I don't like the Exxige V6...

Which one?

• Exige V6 Coupe - for 15-year olds and a small handful of trackday nutters.

• Exige V6 Convertible - everything the Evora should have been but wasn't. This should be the best car from Lotus for a very long time and have decent customer appeal with removable roof and no boy-racer body kit.

Fingers crossed.

[anonymous-user]

Mr Gearchange said:

Doesn't count.

Everything from the 70's looked tasteless and awful.

What an extraordinary thing to say! The 70s were one of the most stylish eras in car design, upmarket fashion, and other aspects of design. It wasn't all Bay City Rollers and Allegros.

[Mr Gearchange]

Breadvan72 said:

Mr Gearchange said:

Doesn't count.

Everything from the 70's looked tasteless and awful.

What an extraordinary thing to say! The 70s were one of the most stylish eras in car design, upmarket fashion, and other aspects of design. It wasn't all Bay City Rollers and Allegros.

Perhaps. But that is not how histroy will remember it overall.

[Twincam16]

Mr Gearchange said:

Breadvan72 said:

Mr Gearchange said:

Doesn't count.

Everything from the 70's looked tasteless and awful.

What an extraordinary thing to say! The 70s were one of the most stylish eras in car design, upmarket fashion, and other aspects of design. It wasn't all Bay City Rollers and Allegros.

Perhaps. But that is not how histroy will remember it overall.

Huh?

I think history is remembering it for what it is. I think you've chosen the lazy stereotype.

The Seventies was an era where enthusiasm was rarely matched by budget, but at least it tried. I think it's quite telling that many cars associated with the Eighties are actually evolved Seventies designs - Porsche 911 Turbo and 928, Ferrari 308, Lotus Esprit, Jaguar XJS, Lamborghini Countach etc.

[Mr Gearchange]

Twincam16 said:

Mr Gearchange said:

Breadvan72 said:

Mr Gearchange said:

Doesn't count.

Everything from the 70's looked tasteless and awful.

What an extraordinary thing to say! The 70s were one of the most stylish eras in car design, upmarket fashion, and other aspects of design. It wasn't all Bay City Rollers and Allegros.

Perhaps. But that is not how histroy will remember it overall.

Huh?

I think history is remembering it for what it is. I think you've chosen the lazy stereotype.

The Seventies was an era where enthusiasm was rarely matched by budget, but at least it tried. I think it's quite telling that many cars associated with the Eighties are actually evolved Seventies designs - Porsche 911 Turbo and 928, Ferrari 308, Lotus Esprit, Jaguar XJS, Lamborghini Countach etc.

Yes I have - but there is a reason for sterotypes.
The poster put up a picture of a lairy Lotus suggesting that this wasn't the first time they had stretched the boundaries of taste (with reference to this discussion). I merely pointed out that it wasn't particularly outlandish for the 70's.

I didn't go on to say that every car designed in the 70's was offensive or tasteless. Move along.

[anonymous-user]

Here are some tasteless cars from the 70s:-

[Captain Muppet]

Mr Gearchange said:

Yes I have - but there is a reason for sterotypes.

I used to have the reason written down, but some travellers stole it.

I can't remember what the reason was.

[Mr Gearchange]

Actually I did say "everything from the 70's was tasteless and awful"
So you can probably ignore my previous comments...

Anyway - It was meant within the context of the Lotus picture - where a design like that wasn't seen as outlandish because that was the style at the time.

I knew what I meant..

[andy_s]

Captain Muppet said:

I used to have the reason written down, but some travellers stole it.

I can't remember what the reason was.

Is that because you're old?