RE: Is Lotus in proper bother this time?
Discussion
Alfa numeric said:
That was Mike Kimberley's plan before Bahar arrived. The Evora was intended to be the first of three cars on the same chassis- the supercharged Evora was supposed to be followed by a £90k Esprit using a BMW V8 in 2009/10 and a £150k supercar due about now. This plan was dropped when he retired on health grounds.
If you believe he retired on health grounds, you'll believe anything. Odd how he retires on health grounds, then suddenly there's a new man new money very quickly. I think it's called a mutual parting of ways, but done respectfully 
5 cars was ambitious but the problem right now isn't the plan, the problem right now is that Proton got bought.
LivinLaVidaLotus said:
If you believe [Mike Kimberley] retired on health grounds, you'll believe anything. Odd how he retires on health grounds, then suddenly there's a new man new money very quickly. I think it's called a mutual parting of ways, but done respectfully
Good point, although if true it absolves DB of much of the blame for the current situation as he's only acting on Proton's wishes.LivinLaVidaLotus said:
5 cars was ambitious but the problem right now isn't the plan, the problem right now is that Proton got bought.
Another good point. 
Wills2 said:
jason61c said:
Did they get a goverment grant earlier this year or late last? Hope they didn't or it'd just be another waste of our cash.
£10 million I think which is enough to design, test and tool up for a door handle, so it's not really going to help. JonRB said:
Junglehop said:
Update the elise to this:
You're joking surely. It doesn't have any Lotus DNA in it whatsoever. When you have a strong brand recognition you don't make a product where people look at it and say "what is it?"Jaguar, Aston, Porsche, Ferrari, Lambourghini... they all make cars where just one look at it lets you know what it is, even to the untrained or casual eye.
That... *thing*... could be anything from any Far East wannabe manufacturer. It doesn't say Lotus to me in any way whatsoever. If anything it says Honda.
With regards to the Lotus press release, I actually don't think they have come acoss badly in it. They have shown they do actually have a voice and have felt the need to set the record straight in light of some VERY lazy journalism. Research, research, research, it's your job. This ill informed nonsence that is being printed by the 'professional' journos is indeed damaging Lotus further for no need except to be first to print a bit of 'gossip'. All will be revealed in time.
Having been involved in a company deal that had to go though the due diligence process, you are made aware of very little if anything until a decision is made, in a process that can and usually does take months. So how anyone knows decisions on Lotus' future ahead of it being decided is beyond me. I for one hope they prove every one of the naysayers wrong and make a success of it, no matter how 'supposedly' improbable that may be.
Kermit79 said:
All this DNA marketing 'horsesh*t'....
You've got an Alfa! To me, that's one of those brands who religiously follow the DNA formula, and I like it when companies do that. When a new Alfa comes out, you can immediately recognise who made it, even if you've never seen one before, which I think is of real value to the manufacturers. If I happened to drive past some of the not-yet-released Lotus's, I wouldn't have a clue what they are, and in fact I think I could well mistake some of them for replica kits of other manufacturers.Kermit79 said:
With regards to the Lotus press release, I actually don't think they have come acoss badly in it.
It reminded me of a stroppy teenager throwing his toys out the pram! Each to their own I guess.
Kermit79 said:
Having been involved in a company deal that had to go though the due diligence process, you are made aware of very little if anything until a decision is made, in a process that can and usually does take months.
True but when you for example get Danny Bahar coming out to the media that development is postponed and may not be restarted and then various internet rumors about production slow downs it doesn't sound like a typical due diligence process. My experience is during due diligence a company operates is if nothing is going on apart from not spending anything on new capital projects unless absolutely necessary, production continues at the same rate and any R&D activities on going keep going. Stopping or curtailing activities only serves to run up huge costs for no real benefit, having a production line running well below capacity because new components cannot be ordered or an R&D not doing much of value only serves to make a business less profitable.
Monkey boy 1 said:
Talking of DNA, has anyone actually commented on the Porsche line up? Now all their cars look the same
Well, they don't, do they? If you can't tell the difference between the Cayenne, Cayman, 911, Boxster and Panamera, you haven't been paying much attention.The only area of real similarity is between the (old) Boxster and Cayman from dead-ahead, which since they're basically the same car, isn't unreasonable...
BarnatosGhost said:
Monkey boy 1 said:
Talking of DNA, has anyone actually commented on the Porsche line up? Now all their cars look the same
Well, they don't, do they? If you can't tell the difference between the Cayenne, Cayman, 911, Boxster and Panamera, you haven't been paying much attention.The only area of real similarity is between the (old) Boxster and Cayman from dead-ahead, which since they're basically the same car, isn't unreasonable...
b0rk said:
My experience is during due diligence a company operates is if nothing is going on apart from not spending anything on new capital projects unless absolutely necessary, production continues at the same rate and any R&D activities on going keep going.
I genuinely can't blame anyone for not reading the whole thread, but is it possible that you missed what Tenchman7 posted on Wednesday 11th?Tenchman7 said:
.....But, having talked to a friend who still works there recently, production has stopped and no cars have been built for over 6 weeks from the begining of Feb.This was due to the transition period after the take-over where funds were not available to pay suppliers for the parts needed to build the cars....
How genuine Tenchman7 is I have no idea, but if it's true, and not some internet gossip spread to discredit Lotus, could that be considered to be a normal period of due diligence?b0rk said:
Kermit79 said:
Having been involved in a company deal that had to go though the due diligence process, you are made aware of very little if anything until a decision is made, in a process that can and usually does take months.
True but when you for example get Danny Bahar coming out to the media that development is postponed and may not be restarted and then various internet rumors about production slow downs it doesn't sound like a typical due diligence process. My experience is during due diligence a company operates is if nothing is going on apart from not spending anything on new capital projects unless absolutely necessary, production continues at the same rate and any R&D activities on going keep going. Stopping or curtailing activities only serves to run up huge costs for no real benefit, having a production line running well below capacity because new components cannot be ordered or an R&D not doing much of value only serves to make a business less profitable.
If lotus was a profitable car manufacturer churning out loads of cars and effectively financing itself from operational cash flow, do we really think they would have stopped anything?
No of course not, IMHO the reason for this is the money that lotus is sucking out of its parent company and they (the new owners) have stopped the cheques.
Twincam16 said:
Not quite. They were poised for a change in the late Eighties that effectively went all wrong.
Colin Chapman had spent a few years creating a working relationship with Toyota as he saw an opportunity for both company's engineering to benefit each other's products. He admired the reliability and efficiency of Toyota, and in turn Toyota wanted to make their cars fast and handle well. The link began back in the late Sixties when Toyota bought up a load of Elan chassis for the 2000GT, and by the late Seventies they were working on the M90/X100 project which would have been a RWD Elan replacement with Toyota underpinnings. It was all part of addressing Lotus' reliability problems. An Elan with a Toyota engine would have been unbeatable.
Problem was, Chapman died. The two companies were moving gradually closer and closer together, and joint-engineering projects were bearing fruit in the form of the Excel and the MR2. Had Chapman lived, then according to Oliver Winterbottom Toyota would probably have incorporated Lotus as their engineering wing as of circa 1986.
So, imagine that. Lotus would have engineered all Toyota's competition cars - the Lotus roundel would probably have graced the Celica GT-Four, the MR2 Mk2 would have handled perfectly straight out of the box and had cache as a 'baby Esprit'. Toyota would have pumped money into Lotus's cars to ensure they were built to Toyota standards, and they would have become to Toyota what Porsche is to VW. Toyota are now one of the biggest automotive giants in the world, and Lotus could have become part of that. Lotus would have heped them evolve too - imagine if Lotus had engineered the Prius?
Unfortunately (and quite by surprise to a lot of people at Lotus, apparently), when Lotus was floated on the Stock exchange General Motors just swept in from nowhere, buying out the majority of the shares before Toyota had the chance. The fact that Lotus and Toyota have always maintained a positive working relationship even since the GM takeover speaks volumes about this. The Elan M100, funnily enough, was developed in secret by a committee of GM and Lotus engineers out of the way of most people in Hethel, and the project was based in Italy. The Toyota Elan was all ready to go at this time and would have been profitable to make in volume too, whereas the M100 cost Lotus a fortune and GM dropped it - shades of what happened with Saab.
Since then it's been passed to Bugatti, then Proton, but I do wonder whether if Chapman had lived and had eased his company into Toyota ownership, ensuring that Toyota knew precisely how to preserve the spirit of Lotus, it would be a formidably strong company today, building cars that retained the lightness and innovation whilst also being reliable and well-built.
Interestingly, despite the GT86 Toyota still has no sporting wing. I know it's 25 years later than intended, but I think Toyota would understand Lotus in a way that few other manufacturers would.
One of the biggest missed opportunities of the automotive world - and tantalisingly still not out of reach. DO IT, TOYOTA, DO IT!
Very interesting post - does anyone know if there are any ex-Toyota people at Lotus, or any ex-Lotus people at Toyota? That would add a bit of spice to this theory!Colin Chapman had spent a few years creating a working relationship with Toyota as he saw an opportunity for both company's engineering to benefit each other's products. He admired the reliability and efficiency of Toyota, and in turn Toyota wanted to make their cars fast and handle well. The link began back in the late Sixties when Toyota bought up a load of Elan chassis for the 2000GT, and by the late Seventies they were working on the M90/X100 project which would have been a RWD Elan replacement with Toyota underpinnings. It was all part of addressing Lotus' reliability problems. An Elan with a Toyota engine would have been unbeatable.
Problem was, Chapman died. The two companies were moving gradually closer and closer together, and joint-engineering projects were bearing fruit in the form of the Excel and the MR2. Had Chapman lived, then according to Oliver Winterbottom Toyota would probably have incorporated Lotus as their engineering wing as of circa 1986.
So, imagine that. Lotus would have engineered all Toyota's competition cars - the Lotus roundel would probably have graced the Celica GT-Four, the MR2 Mk2 would have handled perfectly straight out of the box and had cache as a 'baby Esprit'. Toyota would have pumped money into Lotus's cars to ensure they were built to Toyota standards, and they would have become to Toyota what Porsche is to VW. Toyota are now one of the biggest automotive giants in the world, and Lotus could have become part of that. Lotus would have heped them evolve too - imagine if Lotus had engineered the Prius?
Unfortunately (and quite by surprise to a lot of people at Lotus, apparently), when Lotus was floated on the Stock exchange General Motors just swept in from nowhere, buying out the majority of the shares before Toyota had the chance. The fact that Lotus and Toyota have always maintained a positive working relationship even since the GM takeover speaks volumes about this. The Elan M100, funnily enough, was developed in secret by a committee of GM and Lotus engineers out of the way of most people in Hethel, and the project was based in Italy. The Toyota Elan was all ready to go at this time and would have been profitable to make in volume too, whereas the M100 cost Lotus a fortune and GM dropped it - shades of what happened with Saab.
Since then it's been passed to Bugatti, then Proton, but I do wonder whether if Chapman had lived and had eased his company into Toyota ownership, ensuring that Toyota knew precisely how to preserve the spirit of Lotus, it would be a formidably strong company today, building cars that retained the lightness and innovation whilst also being reliable and well-built.
Interestingly, despite the GT86 Toyota still has no sporting wing. I know it's 25 years later than intended, but I think Toyota would understand Lotus in a way that few other manufacturers would.
One of the biggest missed opportunities of the automotive world - and tantalisingly still not out of reach. DO IT, TOYOTA, DO IT!
Edited by soldi on Friday 13th April 21:00
MX7 said:
b0rk said:
My experience is during due diligence a company operates is if nothing is going on apart from not spending anything on new capital projects unless absolutely necessary, production continues at the same rate and any R&D activities on going keep going.
I genuinely can't blame anyone for not reading the whole thread, but is it possible that you missed what Tenchman7 posted on Wednesday 11th?Tenchman7 said:
.....But, having talked to a friend who still works there recently, production has stopped and no cars have been built for over 6 weeks from the begining of Feb.This was due to the transition period after the take-over where funds were not available to pay suppliers for the parts needed to build the cars....
How genuine Tenchman7 is I have no idea, but if it's true, and not some internet gossip spread to discredit Lotus, could that be considered to be a normal period of due diligence?In any case due diligence is normally a process you do before the sale goes ahead (and as an old CEO of mine once said it's all cobblers as everyone just hides the truth from you) and lets face it it's too late once the cheque is cashed.
This is internal due diligence as they don't like what they see IMHO.
Wills2 said:
I've been involved with companies during due diligence, it doesn't effect the on going day to day trading.
Which brings us back to the fundamental problem - Lotus Cars has very little day to day trading at all. With the wrong cars in the wrong place at the wrong time it doesn't look good. The failure of Evora puts the future in considerable jeopardy.
Wills2 said:
MX7 said:
b0rk said:
My experience is during due diligence a company operates is if nothing is going on apart from not spending anything on new capital projects unless absolutely necessary, production continues at the same rate and any R&D activities on going keep going.
I genuinely can't blame anyone for not reading the whole thread, but is it possible that you missed what Tenchman7 posted on Wednesday 11th?Tenchman7 said:
.....But, having talked to a friend who still works there recently, production has stopped and no cars have been built for over 6 weeks from the begining of Feb.This was due to the transition period after the take-over where funds were not available to pay suppliers for the parts needed to build the cars....
How genuine Tenchman7 is I have no idea, but if it's true, and not some internet gossip spread to discredit Lotus, could that be considered to be a normal period of due diligence?In any case due diligence is normally a process you do before the sale goes ahead (and as an old CEO of mine once said it's all cobblers as everyone just hides the truth from you) and lets face it it's too late once the cheque is cashed.
This is internal due diligence as they don't like what they see IMHO.
MX7 said:
So this can't be described as a period of due diligence can it? No cars since February? This seems like the opposite of due diligence to me. Am I wrong?
It's due diligence according to Malaysian law though, and as lotus isn't central to the business I don't think they can get any cash until it's finished. Of course it should have finished by now...MX7 said:
Wills2 said:
MX7 said:
b0rk said:
My experience is during due diligence a company operates is if nothing is going on apart from not spending anything on new capital projects unless absolutely necessary, production continues at the same rate and any R&D activities on going keep going.
I genuinely can't blame anyone for not reading the whole thread, but is it possible that you missed what Tenchman7 posted on Wednesday 11th?Tenchman7 said:
.....But, having talked to a friend who still works there recently, production has stopped and no cars have been built for over 6 weeks from the begining of Feb.This was due to the transition period after the take-over where funds were not available to pay suppliers for the parts needed to build the cars....
How genuine Tenchman7 is I have no idea, but if it's true, and not some internet gossip spread to discredit Lotus, could that be considered to be a normal period of due diligence?In any case due diligence is normally a process you do before the sale goes ahead (and as an old CEO of mine once said it's all cobblers as everyone just hides the truth from you) and lets face it it's too late once the cheque is cashed.
This is internal due diligence as they don't like what they see IMHO.
They have sold 35 cars in the UK so far this year (not sure about the ROTW) and therefore would require weekly/monthly cash injections from the parent to fund on going operations, my best guess is the tap has been turned off until further notice. (not sure I buy the "legal" argument myself as it's their business they can fund it if they want to)
DB will be fighting like mad to get the cash flowing again.
My opinion of course could be nonsense. (and not for the first time)
Edited by Wills2 on Friday 13th April 23:37
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