RE: Is Lotus in proper bother this time?
Discussion
Greg_D said:
Really........
I'll spell it out for you. If honda were to buy lotus and co-develop a car, they would need to put a current engine in it, and since the 2.0 N/A vtec engine is now defunct, i am interested to know which of their current range you would suggest as being market leading and appropriate for a lightweight road car???
Why would they need to put a current engine in it? If they bought Lotus, maybe, just maybe, they could, you know, develop a new engine.I'll spell it out for you. If honda were to buy lotus and co-develop a car, they would need to put a current engine in it, and since the 2.0 N/A vtec engine is now defunct, i am interested to know which of their current range you would suggest as being market leading and appropriate for a lightweight road car???
Is that possible, do you think, or is it totally out of the question?
When can Honda develop a new engine? Is it WHENEVER THEY WANT TO, or is there a secret engine development timetable we don't know about?
Mr Gear said:
What a depressing f
k-up.
Anyone on here could have predicted their ambitious plans would go this way.
Indeed. It would be laughable if it were not so sad. A year from now Bahar and his team of highly paid industry Gurus will have pocketed large wads of cash and disappeared from the scene of the crime. They make the Phoenix Four look like professionals.k-up. Anyone on here could have predicted their ambitious plans would go this way.
The only surprise is that the shareholders fell for the 'Emperors New Clothes" routine.
pp
bqf said:
Greg_D said:
Really........
I'll spell it out for you. If honda were to buy lotus and co-develop a car, they would need to put a current engine in it, and since the 2.0 N/A vtec engine is now defunct, i am interested to know which of their current range you would suggest as being market leading and appropriate for a lightweight road car???
Why would they need to put a current engine in it? If they bought Lotus, maybe, just maybe, they could, you know, develop a new engine.I'll spell it out for you. If honda were to buy lotus and co-develop a car, they would need to put a current engine in it, and since the 2.0 N/A vtec engine is now defunct, i am interested to know which of their current range you would suggest as being market leading and appropriate for a lightweight road car???
Is that possible, do you think, or is it totally out of the question?
When can Honda develop a new engine? Is it WHENEVER THEY WANT TO, or is there a secret engine development timetable we don't know about?
They would gain nothing.
The market for 2 seater sports cars is too small to make any money from selling them at their price range (even more so when you hardly sell any to start with they have sold 35 cars in the UK this year according to the SMMT report)
It's fine if you can sell them for 150K+ like Ferrari does but not at 30-50k as the numbers will never stack up. (even Porsche couldn't make it pay with the 911 alone)
Mr Bahar did recognise this hence his grand plan to broaden the range and push the prices up into Porsche/Ferrari territory but he has always needed a lot more money and time than he ever had at his disposal.
Lotus is a great brand and the elise is a stupendous car on a track, I could see a larger manufacturer thinking that it could bring economies of scale to the hethel operation and perhaps make it profitable if the business plan still holds water and just needs funding. (but who knows)
I hope they aren't ready for the bin, as we need every single job we've got in the private sector at the moment.
It's fine if you can sell them for 150K+ like Ferrari does but not at 30-50k as the numbers will never stack up. (even Porsche couldn't make it pay with the 911 alone)
Mr Bahar did recognise this hence his grand plan to broaden the range and push the prices up into Porsche/Ferrari territory but he has always needed a lot more money and time than he ever had at his disposal.
Lotus is a great brand and the elise is a stupendous car on a track, I could see a larger manufacturer thinking that it could bring economies of scale to the hethel operation and perhaps make it profitable if the business plan still holds water and just needs funding. (but who knows)
I hope they aren't ready for the bin, as we need every single job we've got in the private sector at the moment.
Edited by Wills2 on Wednesday 11th April 14:50
I don't really understand the logic of revealing the five (swiftly cut to four) new models all at once and all so far in advance of them actually being ready. Bad enough that I basically can't tell them apart but by the time they eventually appear they'll be yesterday's news. Assuming the company isn't completely gone by then. What makes matters worse is that the new Exige and Exige roadster look fanbleedintastic.
odyssey2200 said:
Again, Why would Honda (or any other volume manufacturer) want to buy Lotus.
They would gain nothing.
IN MY OPINION, Lotus has a brand value, deep and significant engineering experience, a good motorsport heritage on which to draw, and a loyal customer base (albeit one that needs to be much bigger).They would gain nothing.
Without their debt (if, as I have already said, they go through a pre-pack any new purchaser would be taking on little debt), they are an attractive European sports car brand.
How many other attractive, small, European sports car brands are there for sale?
If you think Lotus is worthless, then THAT IS OF COURSE YOUR OPINION. I don't agree.
Wills2 said:
The market for 2 seater sports cars is too small to make any money from selling them at their price range (even more so when you hardly sell any to start with)
It's fine if you can sell them for 150K+ like Ferrari does but not at 30-50k as the numbers will never stack up. (even Porsche couldn't make it pay with the 911 alone)
Mr Bahar did recognise this hence his grand plan to broaden the range and push the prices up into Porsche/Ferrari territory but he has always needed a lot more money and time than he ever had at his disposal.
Lotus is a great brand and the elise is a stupendous car on a track, I could see a larger manufacturer thinking that it could bring economies of scale to the hethel operation and perhaps make it profitable if the business plan still holds water and just needs funding. (but who knows)
Two good points. It was as if, amidst a shootout, Lotus had run into the last chance saloon and picked Bahar to save its neck. Only problem was they had no time and only one round of ammunition. Hardly fair.It's fine if you can sell them for 150K+ like Ferrari does but not at 30-50k as the numbers will never stack up. (even Porsche couldn't make it pay with the 911 alone)
Mr Bahar did recognise this hence his grand plan to broaden the range and push the prices up into Porsche/Ferrari territory but he has always needed a lot more money and time than he ever had at his disposal.
Lotus is a great brand and the elise is a stupendous car on a track, I could see a larger manufacturer thinking that it could bring economies of scale to the hethel operation and perhaps make it profitable if the business plan still holds water and just needs funding. (but who knows)
Schnellmann said:
Shouldn't that read: lots of people on here did predict this....
Seem to remember quite a few borderline offensive comments regarding his nationality and ethnic background. On the whole I don't really read too much into what's being said on this website. None of the so called experts predicted what's been going on in Malaysia. A lot of them seem to be ignoring that right now and think it's still Bahar's fault! Very odd!bqf said:
odyssey2200 said:
Again, Why would Honda (or any other volume manufacturer) want to buy Lotus.
They would gain nothing.
IN MY OPINION, Lotus has a brand value, deep and significant engineering experience, a good motorsport heritage on which to draw, and a loyal customer base (albeit one that needs to be much bigger).Lotus has nothing that could not be bought. That experiance is in the skills of the people, people that will be on the open market to the highest bidder and job hunting if Lotus goes tits up.They would gain nothing.
Without their debt (if, as I have already said, they go through a pre-pack any new purchaser would be taking on little debt), they are an attractive European sports car brand.of curiosity value only, not financial value
How many other attractive, small, European sports car brands are there for sale?How many are there? Not many, they all went bust
If you think Lotus is worthless, then THAT IS OF COURSE YOUR OPINION. I don't agree.
Crow555 said:
I can't help but think a "breathed-on" saloon like the Carlton or the Cortina could've been a bit of a stop-gap until the new models come out.
There's not much point in all the PR shenanigans if you've got nothing to sell.
There's not much point in all the PR shenanigans if you've got nothing to sell.
Lotus VXR (monaro)?
Lotus Mondeo?
instead they tried a Lotus Proton
odyssey2200 said:
bqf said:
odyssey2200 said:
Again, Why would Honda (or any other volume manufacturer) want to buy Lotus.
They would gain nothing.
IN MY OPINION, Lotus has a brand value, deep and significant engineering experience, a good motorsport heritage on which to draw, and a loyal customer base (albeit one that needs to be much bigger).Lotus has nothing that could not be bought. That experiance is in the skills of the people, people that will be on the open market to the highest bidder and job hunting if Lotus goes tits up.They would gain nothing.
Without their debt (if, as I have already said, they go through a pre-pack any new purchaser would be taking on little debt), they are an attractive European sports car brand.of curiosity value only, not financial value
How many other attractive, small, European sports car brands are there for sale?How many are there? Not many, they all went bust
If you think Lotus is worthless, then THAT IS OF COURSE YOUR OPINION. I don't agree.
MrTappets said:
I don't really understand the logic of revealing the five (swiftly cut to four) new models all at once and all so far in advance of them actually being ready.
He was on a very tight schedule with the clock ticking and had to think big or forget it all, is my guess. I also think he needed to create interest and PR globally to back up his business plan.I might get shot down for this but I do not think this is his fault, yeah the Swissbeats/Mansory thing was strange to my eyes but I think he was looking for quick fixes to keep interest going and search out new buyers as the traditional base just wasn't buying and he needed to bridge the gap that was opening up in his plan.
Who knows...
bqf said:
Greg_D said:
Really........
I'll spell it out for you. If honda were to buy lotus and co-develop a car, they would need to put a current engine in it, and since the 2.0 N/A vtec engine is now defunct, i am interested to know which of their current range you would suggest as being market leading and appropriate for a lightweight road car???
Why would they need to put a current engine in it? If they bought Lotus, maybe, just maybe, they could, you know, develop a new engine.I'll spell it out for you. If honda were to buy lotus and co-develop a car, they would need to put a current engine in it, and since the 2.0 N/A vtec engine is now defunct, i am interested to know which of their current range you would suggest as being market leading and appropriate for a lightweight road car???
Is that possible, do you think, or is it totally out of the question?
When can Honda develop a new engine? Is it WHENEVER THEY WANT TO, or is there a secret engine development timetable we don't know about?
Honda have made a conscious choice to walk away from performance machinery to develop pensioner-mobiles, there will very likely never be another screaming vtec unit due to emissions regs, yes they could possibly develop another unit, but at VAST cost that would make the whole shooting match all the more unlikely.
you are thinking about productionising one of the elise typeRs which, although mouthwatering, will NEVER happen...
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