RE: Ringside Seat: does the 'ring ruin road cars?

[havoc]

I think a single-minded focus on a N'ring lap-time WILL compromise a car for road use (or at least, for UK/Italian/Belgian road use - Germany, France, Japan etc. don't seem to have such crap tarmac). Lapping ANY circuit, inc. the N'ring, will benefit from stiffening the suspension (at least when looking at road cars), so straight away you're compromising on-road compliance.


But isn't this down to the interaction between manufacturers, their engineers, and journalists/the press? Surely it's the press that's created this focus on N'ring lap times (and indeed James May's own TG program, with the TG Lap Time board!)??? For journos to blame the 'ring is like a trademan blaming his tools. Without constant press coverage of the place and the times, this whole circus wouldn't have been created and cars would still drive like the aforementioned Jags and 90's performance Peugeots. Even Loti have got stiffer in the last 10 years...



Finally, to be fair, bigger rims have made suspension designers' lives more difficult, and the pursuit of cost-cutting has reduced the budget for creating and tuning the expensive dampers seen on some of the best performance cars which permit sublime handling and a half-decent ride. Stiffening the springs is a cheap alternative which "gives a car a sporty feel" (sic)...

[Lost_BMW]

Zod said:

Dr S said:

Nordschleife is indeed the race track where too stiff a set-up will ruin instead of improve latpimes. It's a far too bumpy for that matter...

Exactly! Try the Karussel with ultra-stiff suspension and see what happens at the exit!

On the other hand my M3 had a Nurburgring specific suspension set up (AST 3 way etc) the same settings as Bovingdon's EVO ring toy and though bearable (just about) on the road it wasn't anything like comfortable most of the time + a handful on really bumpy roads at speed even on softer settings and with just 17" rims. You'd only have wanted to use it as a daily driver if you were as obsessed/mental as I was or couldn't afford a second non-toy car.

[EDLT]

Turbo Harry said:

EDLT said:

Turbo Harry said:

Has James May ever actually driven the Nurburgring in order to understand what it's like?

Why would he need to? If he doesn't like driving around race tracks he won't like the ring either, and yes I know that "LOL Have you even been?" was the entire rebuttal to the other thread about the same thing.

If you think the Ring is like a modern race track then your whole argument is undermined, is it not?

It's more like a road. It's cambered with variable surfaces etc. Saying the Ring ruins road cars is therefore like saying a road ruins road cars. It's completely idiotic. Chasing lap times and setting up cars such that they are happy at 150mph at the expense of 40mph ruins road cars.

No, my argument is that someone who doesn't like driving around race tracks won't like driving around a different race track, no matter how bumpy or cambered it is.

[Britcar David]

Its not all suspension, its brakes as well. Performance cars tuned for the ring often don't have the brakes needed for spirited road driving/regular track use. The 'Ring is such a specific track the corners are generally all medium/high speed so the brake cooling requirements are not massive as you are not loosing lots of speed for each corner. There are only 4 or 5 big stops on the whole lap, compared to, say, Brands Indy where you have 3-4 per lap bu the lap is 14 times shorter. Compare that with any 'traditional' circuit and you have many more slower corners per mile which means a car optimised for 'Ring will very quickly run out of brakes on any other circuit.

This is the other end of the 'compromised for road' argument (i.e. compromised for performance) that started this thread but it also shows the incompatibility with Ring tuning performance cars for other circuits.

Edited by Britcar David on Monday 23 April 10:51

[EDLT]

Lots of road cars have brakes that won't cope with track-days, its not because of the ring it is because track focused brakes don't work when cold.

[DJRC]

How come it took until James bloody May on TG for people to acknowledge this? For quite a while now, some of us have been saying on here that the 'Ring obsession has been ruining road cars and either got completely ignored or derided. James May says something and suddenly apparently 20-30% of ph is agreeing with him. Well you flaming werent before he said something!!!

[Turbo Harry]

EDLT said:

Turbo Harry said:

EDLT said:

Turbo Harry said:

Has James May ever actually driven the Nurburgring in order to understand what it's like?

Why would he need to? If he doesn't like driving around race tracks he won't like the ring either, and yes I know that "LOL Have you even been?" was the entire rebuttal to the other thread about the same thing.

If you think the Ring is like a modern race track then your whole argument is undermined, is it not?

It's more like a road. It's cambered with variable surfaces etc. Saying the Ring ruins road cars is therefore like saying a road ruins road cars. It's completely idiotic. Chasing lap times and setting up cars such that they are happy at 150mph at the expense of 40mph ruins road cars.

No, my argument is that someone who doesn't like driving around race tracks won't like driving around a different race track, no matter how bumpy or cambered it is.

If he's never experienced it, he has no right to comment on its effects from a supposed position of authority.

[Turbo Harry]

DJRC said:

How come it took until James bloody May on TG for people to acknowledge this? For quite a while now, some of us have been saying on here that the 'Ring obsession has been ruining road cars and either got completely ignored or derided. James May says something and suddenly apparently 20-30% of ph is agreeing with him. Well you flaming werent before he said something!!!

What are the odds that the vast majority who claim that the Ring ruins road cars have absolutely no clue as to how cars are tested there? If there was one 'track' that was ever going to faithfully replicate a road, it's the Ring. But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of a good rant, eh?

[Kawasicki]

Britcar David said:

Its not all suspension, its brakes as well. Performance cars tuned for the ring often don't have the brakes needed for spirited road driving/regular track use. The 'Ring is such a specific track the corners are generally all medium/high speed so the brake cooling requirements are not massive as you are not loosing lots of speed for each corner. There are only 4 or 5 big stops on the whole lap, compared to, say, Brands Indy where you have 3-4 per lap bu the lap is 14 times shorter. Compare that with any 'traditional' circuit and you have many more slower corners per mile which means a car optimised for 'Ring will very quickly run out of brakes on any other circuit.

This is the other end of the 'compromised for road' argument (i.e. compromised for performance) that started this thread but it also shows the incompatibility with Ring tuning performance cars for other circuits.

Edited by Britcar David on Monday 23 April 10:51

Your comments are pretty much exactly opposite to my experiences, the driving I have done at the 'ring completely screwed brakes up in half a lap, a couple of laps if I was a little conservative, usually I had to drive at 8/10ths most of the time, just to preserve the brakes for the next corner.

[Kawasicki]

DJRC said:

How come it took until James bloody May on TG for people to acknowledge this? For quite a while now, some of us have been saying on here that the 'Ring obsession has been ruining road cars and either got completely ignored or derided. James May says something and suddenly apparently 20-30% of ph is agreeing with him. Well you flaming werent before he said something!!!

Maybe the 'ring is ruining road cars for you, but not for me. I have no problem with 'ring developed cars, I am happy to live with the stiff, inert feeling at low speeds because I know that the car will probably be responsive yet controlled and stable at higher speeds. Something that feels lively and fun at 60mph on a nice smooth road will be plain scary at 150mph on a bumpy road.

[havoc]

Kawasicki said:

Maybe the 'ring is ruining road cars for you, but not for me. I have no problem with 'ring developed cars, I am happy to live with the stiff, inert feeling at low speeds because I know that the car will probably be responsive yet controlled and stable at higher speeds. Something that feels lively and fun at 60mph on a nice smooth road will be plain scary at 150mph on a bumpy road.

...and the sooner you receive a ban the better for everyone.150 on a bumpy public road is rather stupid...in any car.

Most of us live in the real world and drive on normal roads. We'd quite like cars that are responsive and involving at legal, or at least sensible, speeds. When even a Corsa gets the N'ring treatment, you know it's gone too far...



BTW, my ITR is involving at 60 but was perfectly stable at 120 round the 'ring.

[mikebrownhill]

Trevor M said:

BMW's had horrible rides for years, as did a lot of German cars, because of 'ring testing combined with ridiculous, stupid run-flat tires.

I had occasion to test the virtues of run flats recently, pressing on along a country lane, better half driving her MINI (BMW version) Cooper S, when 'Bang' down a deep pothole, which turned out to be a sinking manhole with a metal edge. Half an hour later a Red Tyre Deflation warning comes on.

It was absolutely bucketing down with mud and manure all over the road and blowing a gale, but no adverse impact on the car, driving straight and handling fine - anyway checking the handbook it said we could drive on it indefinitely at up to 50 (or I think maybe even 60) MPH - so we did until it stopped raining long enough for me to be without a car for a few hours two days later.

Ridiculous and stupid - not in my book Fella, they are the most convenient product I've tried in years. I do admit that the ride in the MINI is a bit hard but can live with it, and I was slightly surprised when they said the tire couldn't be repaired (a Continental, not Dunlop which apparently can) which meant buying a new one at a premium - but I will use them as long as I can afford them and would fit them to all my cars if I could. My wife would kill me if I ever tried to take them off her MINI now.

[DJRC]

Turbo Harry said:

DJRC said:

How come it took until James bloody May on TG for people to acknowledge this? For quite a while now, some of us have been saying on here that the 'Ring obsession has been ruining road cars and either got completely ignored or derided. James May says something and suddenly apparently 20-30% of ph is agreeing with him. Well you flaming werent before he said something!!!

What are the odds that the vast majority who claim that the Ring ruins road cars have absolutely no clue as to how cars are tested there? If there was one 'track' that was ever going to faithfully replicate a road, it's the Ring. But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of a good rant, eh?

Because cars are being optimised for "performance" instead of comfort. Whats more than performance is being dressed up as another word for "control". Unfortunately that for the ordinary punter on the road is:

A: Counter to what is usually required in the name of comfort, damping and ride quality
B: Detrimental because the engineers are simply not very good at delivering

Contrary to industry ego, very few are actually any good at the job. The vast majority of motor cars are now delivered to market with rubbish damping, lousy ride quality and suspension which is outright bloody terrible in 90% of all driving conditions.

"But it gives you great control going round Karoussell!" is no fking good up Sharps Hill, out of Maidstone towards Yalding and the 2 pot holes you need to avoid, whilst also getting traction down to power up the hill and be in control in case you need to take avoiding action from the oncomming traffic.

"Thats a very specific thing! Thats not fair!" I head you cry. Fine, Ill thow the D23 and N147 in France at you then. One is more interesting, the other calls for high speed, long distance cruising typical of whats needed from a GT car. Hey, the body control might be brilliant! Its so stiff!! Fantastic! Shame the high speed ride is fking appalling for rear passengers when loaded up with gear isnt it?

Really here, you didnt want to get into "facts" with me on this one. Or we can go all day if you wish, Ive had a lot longer than you to get annoyed about this subject and gathered a hell of a lot more evidence on the road across Europe about *why* Ive been banging this drum for so long. Perhaps we can ever go manufacturer specific? Would you like that? Pick one, where would you like to start? BMW, Merc, Vag, Pug. We can do Ferrari, Porsche and TVR aswell if you want to go a bit leftfield But you are right, absolutely no clue what or why...

[havoc]

I've got a tenner on DJRC winning in 3 rounds. Will even give 2-1 odds...any takers???



BTW, Mr Harry - the same set-up that will make a car quick around the 'ring will make a car quick down a well-surfaced* (!!!) B-road. It just won't be AT ALL comfortable doing it. And then you'll get to a typical bumpy B-road and the car will pogo into the hedge...





* Karrusel excepted, the 'ring is very smooth - has to be for the racing that goes on there. Anyone ever see a pothole or a shoddy road repair? How about a sunken drain cover?

[Kawasicki]

havoc said:

Kawasicki said:

Maybe the 'ring is ruining road cars for you, but not for me. I have no problem with 'ring developed cars, I am happy to live with the stiff, inert feeling at low speeds because I know that the car will probably be responsive yet controlled and stable at higher speeds. Something that feels lively and fun at 60mph on a nice smooth road will be plain scary at 150mph on a bumpy road.

...and the sooner you receive a ban the better for everyone.150 on a bumpy public road is rather stupid...in any car.

Most of us live in the real world and drive on normal roads. We'd quite like cars that are responsive and involving at legal, or at least sensible, speeds. When even a Corsa gets the N'ring treatment, you know it's gone too far...



BTW, my ITR is involving at 60 but was perfectly stable at 120 round the 'ring.

Isn't the ITR a little harsh/noisy/quick for the real world? Wouldn't a base VW Golf suit your real world needs better? 120mph at the Ring is also very risky/stupid, most people would think you should be banned from driving. I think it is fine, but I am clearly a lunatic (like you).

I didn't mention public road in my post, that was your assumption. Also, the Ring is a public road and 120mph is not fast there. Cars are now so powerful that even 120mph is not really considered fast, a Golf Gti is a 150mph car. So your ITR was stable at a moderately high speed, what is the lift off stability like at 140mph? Engineers must consider that the car is not driven by a highly skilled driver, so they have to consider what the results of poor driving at high speeds.

Why do people buy powerful cars, do they intend to drive them quickly or should they be limited to 100mph? If they intend to drive them quickly, surely they should be stable and forgiving at the speeds they are capable of. The Ring is one of the best places to set up a car to be safe at high speeds on a bumpy road. When you buy a car that has Ring development you can be fairly certain that it will be a complete/safe package. It might be boring at 60mph but it will be safe at high speeds. You can buy cars that have no Ring development and find, for example, that you are struggling with wheel control at 80mph on a bumpy road, which is fine, as you can just slow down and enjoy involvement at lower speeds, or you can maintain 80mph and think about the increased risks.

[Broken]

Wether the ring is ruining car that are developed ther or not seems to depend on several things: what the manufacturer is trying to achieve, what you want to use the car for and personal preference for how you like a car to feel among them. What does seem apparrent though is that since the obsession with ring lap times has come about there has been a general shift towards stiffer set ups on cars. How much of that is down to marketing people wanting the willy waving lap times, or sales people pushing people towards larger rims and lowere profile tyres for looks and how much is down to accountants trying to cut costs of components to increase profits depends on the manufacturer.

It does seem that there is an emerging trend of wanting smaller rims with higher profile tyres to improve the ride quality and dynamic properties of a car. It is getting mentioned more in the press and on forums, it even seems that some maunfacturers think this is the way to go (toyota & subaru with the gt 86/brz). By and large though the people who complain about ride quality the most have generally bought a car that is inappropriate for their needs because of the image they want and supposed improved resale value.

[havoc]

You're either trolling or splitting hairs K - either way I can't be arsed to respond to your post.

Try addressing my points meaningfully and we'll have a conversation. Oh, and try not to contradict yourself too - helps with the credibility!

[The Wookie]

In the interest of fairness, I did a fair amount of testing in a standard Corsa VXR and it rode worse than a Mercedes G-wagen yet still on track understeered like a pig attempting an escape over a wet lino floor.

I was always under the impression that the Nurburgring edition consisted of more compliant dampers and thus should theoretically ride better!

[havoc]

More expensive dampers, plus an ATB style diff. The first of which goes back to what I said last week - mfrs are cutting costs and equating stiff with sporty. The whole 'ring phenomena I think is somewhat of a red herring here.

That the VXR N'ring edition is a better car has little to do with testing there and mire to do with the new components.

[Britcar David]

EDLT said:

Lots of road cars have brakes that won't cope with track-days, its not because of the ring it is because track focused brakes don't work when cold.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more, but that's not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that cars tuned as 'performance' cars on the ring can't always cope with 'performance' in other areas as the ring is such a unique track it doesn't really relate to other circuits.