RE: Time for Tea? BR-Z and GT-86 take on MX-5

[kambites]

MX7 said:

kambites said:

I don't really see why the cost of a car in another country has any bearing on its value (or indeed anything else) here?

It's to do with it's place in the market. I'm asking if anyone knows why Toyota would pitch the GT86 along side the MX5 in the US, but closer to the 370Z in the UK.

Unfortunately I'm not getting any answers that make sense.

Well the (unhelpful but accurate) answer is "because they think they can". Ultimately, a car is worth whatever people will pay for it; clearly Toyota think that British people will pay more for this car than Americans will. Why they think that, I don't know...

[356Speedster]

jamespink said:

You can have good power "on the cheap"! but the result is high consumption (any fast Ford). BMW (for example) on the other hand spend the money on the engine development to produce power with economy. Development costs are a million miles apart.

Yes & no. The 5-pot motors weren't developed for economy, they were developed for fun, so it's a null point really. The BMW engines (as with many others) have stop / start technology and are completely engineered to beat the silly EU emissions test. As such, the stop / start tech, gear ratios and shift points (the cleanest cars are often self-shifters) are all purely designed to fool the test. Get them into the real world, drive them like you're wanting to enjoy them and you'll be guzzling super like the best of 'em

Edited by 356Speedster on Wednesday 2nd May 15:21

[thewheelman]

kambites said:

MX7 said:

kambites said:

I don't really see why the cost of a car in another country has any bearing on its value (or indeed anything else) here?

It's to do with it's place in the market. I'm asking if anyone knows why Toyota would pitch the GT86 along side the MX5 in the US, but closer to the 370Z in the UK.

Unfortunately I'm not getting any answers that make sense.

Well the (unhelpful but accurate) answer is "because they think they can". Ultimately, a car is worth whatever people will pay for it; clearly Toyota think that British people will pay more for this car than Americans will. Why they think that, I don't know...

Simple answer, because we always pay more for our cars than the U.S., but it's not quite as simple as just doing a direct currency conversion.

[Johnboy Mac]

s m said:

Autocar give a kerb weight and an 'as tested' weight.
I think the kerb weight is just the car with half a tank but the as tested will include the 2 testers and test equipment. Certainly the 'as tested' weight in today's issue was 160kg more than kerb weight

It's pity s m that they don't stick to one set regulations. Merc & BMW from what I recall gave the weight of the basic car (without options/special equipment), tank 90% full, driver 68kg plus 7kg baggage.

[kambites]

thewheelman said:

Simple answer, because we always pay more for our cars than the U.S., but it's not quite as simple as just doing a direct currency conversion.

Yes, but the question was why the price differential for this car is much greater than the price differential for the MX5.

[kambites]

Johnboy Mac said:

It's pity s m that they don't stick to one set regulations. Merc & BMW from what I recall gave the weight of the basic car (without options/special equipment), tank 90% full, driver 68kg plus 7kg baggage.

I think that's the standard weight that gets submitted by all manufacturers for European type approval, so it's how most cars are quoted in the European Union these days.

It's also utterly idiotic. Why pick a completely arbitrary figure for something which is nothing to do with the car in question anyway?

[Johnboy Mac]

kambites said:

Yes, but the question was why the price differential for this car is much greater than the price differential for the MX5.

There are several factors, some were already mentioned away back in this thread.

1.The U.S. market is massive. Always had cheap homegrown cars & running costs.
2.Greater competition in the U.S., thus Euro & Jap products have nearly always been cheaper.
3.The distributor for any one country has an input into the retail price of a particular product or even if they are going market the product. Cars are pre ordered from Toyota Japan, thus pressure on the local distributor. Imagine the difference where Toyota U.K. order 5000 cars over a year & Toyota U.S.A. orders 50000.

I'm sure there's many other factors, such as local market preferences, traditions, taxation etc.

[Johnboy Mac]

kambites said:

Why pick a completely arbitrary figure for something which is nothing to do with the car in question anyway?

Makes life handy for the manufacturers (only)? Imagine, a basic spec 3 Series and a fully loaded, all options job. God only knows the weight difference.

[otolith]

356Speedster said:

I am sort of with you, although as many manufacturers are showing running costs / emissions are not necessarily mutually exclusive from power / torque. We have turbo technology to thank there. The interesting thing is that if it had a blower pushing sensible power of say, 240bhp, it’d have almost the same in lb/ft and that 50% additional twisty stuff, which would make the car feel a good chunk brisker. Most manufacturers can knock out these engines cheaply enough, so a turbo-4 shouldn’t push the cost up by more than a few hundred £s.

That's true, but - and this is just my personal view - I don't like the power delivery characteristics of turbocharged engines, and wouldn't want one in a car with sporting pretensions. You also have to ask what else would need to be changed to cope with more power and torque, and how far the resulting vicious spiral of adding weight would take the car from its original design brief of a light, pure, affordable car. I'm sure a lot of people would rather have a heavier, gruntier car, and would trade any amount of feel or delicacy for more acceleration, but such cars are already easy to come by. If you want a brutish Jap coupe, Nissan will oblige!

[HighwayStar]

356Speedster said:

Like others, this video has left me feeling quite disappointed at the Toyobaru pair. I never thought either of them looked very inspiring and that the engines sounded a bit limp, but was prepared to wait for something akin to this test. As they tested them against an MX5, I’m pleased to see a reference point I can relate to (my wife had one, I drove it lots).

I’m sorry to say that my fears have come to life. The MX5 always felt like it needed another 50bhp to be anything other than “a bit quick” and to see this pair of £25K (plus options) new drivers cars struggle to pass it on long straights, leaves me cold. Sure it’s not all about straight line pace, but my mate’s Clio 172 and numerous diesels gave my wife’s MX5 a bit of a drubbing a few yrs ago and there’s only so far you can exploit the handling on public roads to claw back a deficit anyway.

With plans of swapping wife’s ST for something new next yr (that’s fun for me to drive and with a small back seat for the baby), I’m afraid these are off the list. At that price, with dull looks inside & out (all highly subjective) and with significantly less pace than her ST, the only thing this pair offer is a decent chassis. I could have forgiven the looks, if the entire mechanical package was enough to compensate, but it isn’t. And if there is a turbo version to come later, it’ll be £30K and prices itself against a lot of other metal. Oh well, I’m ooot, the search continues.

So, is it for you, the real issue is the twins just aren't fast enough... Granted the Clio 172/197/200 is a whole other car and a lot of supposedly quick cars would struggle to live one on a back road... I know mine would but I've moved on from hot hatches. Diesels will also give a lot of cars a hard time but was he having as much fun behind the wheel chasing your misses down in her MX5? Was he feeling the edge, feedback through the seat, the steering? Doubtful... So I'm guessing in reality you don't want to be roasted by an oil burner whilst having some fun. Handling counts more than speed on a back road... My previous 205 1.9, Clio 16v or 306 GTi-6 would destroy my TTS on a back road.
If people aren't interested in Toyotabru now with more power and a bigger price tag... As has been said they're going to put their cash into something else.

[jetpilot]

Johnboy Mac said:

You mean the heavier, turbo'ed, 4x4's with 10-50% more power that lack Toyota knowhow. As, already stated the four cylinder layout should have little or nothing to do with M.P.G.. Ask any Alfa Sud owners from years gone by.

Yes i do, even though the extra 20 - 50kgs across the wrx range model dependant probably makes sweet fa difference (it equals some luggage or big shop) and more so the sport version which was lighter and had less power than the 86, you still think they will be able roughly double the mpg, lol, you got to love this forum!

Why does everyone who likes this car get so critical when someone offers up an opinion or reason why they would prefer something else or dont like it? Why do you all also believe everything thats been written as gospel?

[MX7]

kambites said:

Well the (unhelpful but accurate) answer is "because they think they can".

Yup, you could well be right. It might be that they think the AE86 still carries a great amount of nostalgia that they can ride on the back of. I think they are wrong if that's their belief, but it is possible.

Johnboy Mac said:

Imagine the difference where Toyota U.K. order 5000 cars over a year & Toyota U.S.A. orders 50000.

So they have five times the population, but order ten times as many cars? I think you're putting far too much emphasis on economies of scale, and you're still ignoring the MX5 comparison.

[Johnboy Mac]

MX7 said:

So they have five times the population, but order ten times as many cars? I think you're putting far too much emphasis on economies of scale, and you're still ignoring the MX5 comparison.

O.k. Toyota U.K. order 5000 & Toyota U.S.A. order 25000, happy? My point is still very valid. As for any comparison with the Mazda, I never commented on or made one - actually don't recall reading any ofyour post/s. My comment was made in reply to somebody else's comment. Go pick a fight elsewhere, I couldn't be bothered.

Edited by Johnboy Mac on Wednesday 2nd May 16:26

[MX7]

Johnboy Mac said:

O.k. Toyota U.K. order 5000 & Toyota U.S.A. order 25000, happy? My point is still very valid. As for any comparison with the Mazda, I never commented on or made one - actually don't recall reading any of your post/s.

fking hell.

Forget it.

[braddo]

MX7 said:

So they have five times the population, but order ten times as many cars? I think you're putting far too much emphasis on economies of scale, and you're still ignoring the MX5 comparison.

If the Scion is priced close to the MX5 in the US, that means the former is very, very aggressively priced in that market.

So the car is unusually cheap in the US, rather then unusually expensive in the UK.

The MX5 is an 8 year old (or more?) design, smaller, only 2 seats, less power - it should be significantly cheaper than the Scion/Toyota/Sub.

[jetpilot]

The subject of UK pricing came up many years when grey import motorbikes suddenly went mainstream. More so highlighted when it was found you could buy a Triumph cheaper from a dealer in the EU, so thats a bike, made in Britain, shipped abroad, taxes and duty paid, delivered to a dealer, pdi'd and with Dealer profit could still then be shipped back to the UK, more duty added and someone over here still making a mark up for roughly 25% less over UK retail!

It was very simple, after much commotion the UK distributors came back with, supply and demand, you were prepared to pay the prices so we sold them for that price! Who is the idiot, the distributors making inflated margins or the public for paying them!

As another example, i could buy an 2012 Kawasaki jetski from a US dealer today for £7k, landed and duty paid, about £10k, UK price £15k+

Im with Mx7, if you dont think you having your pants pulled down over here, your mistaken. What was the price of the GTR in Japan, a little over £31k from memory???

Watch the price plummet if no orders were placed, just like petrol would, but thats just not British is it!

Edited by jetpilot on Wednesday 2nd May 16:53

Edited by jetpilot on Wednesday 2nd May 16:54

[otolith]

When buyers are willing to pay a premium to have a different badge on their VAG, or think that where a car is made has any relevance to what it is worth, I don't think objective assessments of value are really a UK buyer strongpoint.

[HighwayStar]

If you really wanna get a handle on pricing in the US and perspective of what can be charged for the Toyotabaru twins take a look at this. See how much metal you can get for so little bucks, I wouldn't want one but... Factor in $22,310!!!

http://m.ford.com/smartphone/nameplate.html?cid=ca...

[LukeyLikey]

jetpilot said:

The subject of UK pricing came up many years when grey import motorbikes suddenly went mainstream. More so highlighted when it was found you could buy a Triumph cheaper from a dealer in the EU, so thats a bike, made in Britain, shipped abroad, taxes and duty paid, delivered to a dealer, pdi'd and with Dealer profit could still then be shipped back to the UK, more duty added and someone over here still making a mark up for roughly 25% less over UK retail!

It was very simple, after much commotion the UK distributors came back with, supply and demand, you were prepared to pay the prices so we sold them for that price! Who is the idiot, the distributors making inflated margins or the public for paying them!

As another example, i could buy an 2012 Kawasaki jetski from a US dealer today for £7k, landed and duty paid, about £10k, UK price £15k+

Im with Mx7, if you dont think you having your pants pulled down over here, your mistaken. What was the price of the GTR in Japan, a little over £31k from memory???

Watch the price plummet if no orders were placed, just like petrol would, but thats just not British is it!

Edited by jetpilot on Wednesday 2nd May 16:53

Edited by jetpilot on Wednesday 2nd May 16:54

Flame me if you like but it's totally wrong, I'm afraid. We pay 10% duty on items imported from Japan. We have 20% VAT here, they don't (and they don't quote their prices with sales tax, usually a few percent that gets added on after.) Plus we have showroom tax based on CO2 level. Then there's the freight costs, which are more into Europe than America and obviously none at all into Japan. On top of all that, there's the emissions and crash testing that has to be spread over fewer cars into Europe than America. Actually, the list goes on but you get the point. There should probably be around 40% difference just in taxes, freight and other costs.

Profit margins in the car industry are shot to pieces - check UK dealer and distributor accounts if you don't believe me.

When the 'rip-off Britain' campaign was launched in 2000, the issue was the strengthening of the pound versus the weakening of the Euro, which makes a massive difference to car prices, not the car industry ripping everyone off as reported. Nowadays, the UK is one of the cheapest markets in Europe and many cars are leaving these shores because of how low valued our currency is.

[MX7]

HighwayStar said:

If you really wanna get a handle on pricing in the US and perspective of what can be charged for the Toyotabaru twins take a look at this. See how much metal you can get for so little bucks, I wouldn't want one but... Factor in $22,310!!!

http://m.ford.com/smartphone/nameplate.html?cid=ca...

That's built in the US. The GT86 is built in Japan and exported to the UK and US.

The point isn't that cars are cheaper in America, which we all know, it's how the same car can be priced so vastly differently that they are addressing different markets.