RE: PH Blog: What makes the autobahn brilliant
Discussion
) I thought we did ...900T-R said:
Motorrad said:
The Autobahn isn't the idyll it's being made out here. Sure it's better than some UK motorways in stretches but what always amuses and annoys me is the pricks who come barreling upto you, lights flashing, when you're sat behind a slow moving vehicle in lane 2, brake at the last minute then sit on your bumper looking angry.
Which is called 'Nötigung' and looked upon very sternly by plod and courts alike. Especially since a Mercedes test driver came barreling upon a Kia containing a young mother and child which went off the road and into a tree, killing both occupants, as a result. I find the Germans have still some common sense left - do something naughty that doesn't really endanger or greatly inconvenience anyone and you'll get a gentle reminder of the rules, maybe accompanied by a small fine to make sure it sticks; do something stupid, reckless or criminal and you can count on the full weight of thewir justice system being applied.
Common sense on a national basis - that's where it's at. Don't tell everyone what to do all the time or they stop thinking completely. Let people be masters of their own destiny and suddenly a bit of thought, social conscience and responsibility rear their heads.
PaulMoor said:
Realy not helping the argument with this. The amount of time I get some impatiant t****r hammering up behind trying to bully me out of the way because I'm doing 70 going past two lorrys in lane 1 and 2. Why should someone not be aloud in to lane 3 because they stick to the speedlimit? Its not about being sanctimonious, it's about having every legal right to be there. I have no sympathy for people who sit in a lane and don't pull over, but complaining about people wanting to overtake someone doing under the speedlimit? That is what motorways are for.
You're right there... I was doing near 80 the other day in the outside lane overtaking traffic in the other two lanes and some idiot in an Audi comes barrelling up behind me flashing his lights for me to get out the way, and there's not even anywhere for me to go!! It's ridiculous! But in fairness, I think the original poster was referring to people who don't get out the way when they can, i.e after they've finished overtaking or when they're just sat in the middle or outside lane seemingly oblivious of where they SHOULD be. I see that FAR too often!Edited by PaulMoor on Thursday 3rd May 11:25
In my experience, Germany is a great country.
Yes, the roads are often great.
"Health & Safety" doesn't appear to have such a strong (restricting) grip on everything as it does in the UK.
Personal responsibility appears to be assumed -as it was in this country at one time....
People have much less of a tendency to drop litter around their locale than they do in the UK (when did that charming British quirk start?).
Most things seem to "just work".
Yes, the roads are often great.
"Health & Safety" doesn't appear to have such a strong (restricting) grip on everything as it does in the UK.
Personal responsibility appears to be assumed -as it was in this country at one time....
People have much less of a tendency to drop litter around their locale than they do in the UK (when did that charming British quirk start?).
Most things seem to "just work".
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 3rd May 13:14
Riggers said:
PaulMoor said:
Riggers said:
In short, you simply don't get some sanctimonious [expletive deleted] crawling past somebody in the outside lane at 70.5mph and refusing to move over because 'they're doing more than the speed limit anyway so I don't see why anybody should want to go any faster'. And if that makes me sound like the sort of chap who sits two inches from the car in front, then I don't intend it to - it's just ruddy irritating when you want to make progress.
Realy not helping the argument with this. The amount of time I get some impatiant t****r hammering up behind trying to bully me out of the way because I'm doing 70 going past two lorrys in lane 1 and 2. Why should someone not be aloud in to lane 3 because they stick to the speedlimit? Its not about being sanctimonious, it's about having every legal right to be there. I have no sympathy for people who sit in a lane and don't pull over, but complaining about people wanting to overtake someone doing under the speedlimit? That is what motorways are for.You're absolutely right about everybody (with a legal right to be there) having, well, a right to be there. It's just that there are a lot of people who stay in lane three when they don't need to be there. In Germany, (and France and Italy and Spain for that matter) people actually move back in once they have overtaken!
Here in New South Wales we've got exactly the same lane hogging issues as the UK (i'm an ex pat). Speed limit is rigorously enforced at 110km/h although most cops will give you 10km/h leeway without batting an eyelid. 45km/h over does see you with a ban that's longer than low range drink driving which is rather odd (mind you our limit for that is 0.05, not 0.08).
Consequently, we have the same 111kmh right lane hoggers but generally a flash helps wake them up. It is entirely legal to undertake "if safe" which my co-driver insists on as she finds the flash rude and no doubt some sort of Empire hangover from myself. I still don't like it much - if they're that bad a driver, what's the chance they move across precisely at the moment you draw level up the inside.
Just came back from Bali a few weeks back. Now there's interesting driving - it's on for young and old but because there's 100% certainty of death, everyone gives way to everyone in a seething non-aggressive mass of mopeds and cars. Perhaps it's that each person doesn't take it as some sort of slight on their manhood that they've 'conceeded' space to another, that the whole thing works.
Terrible road toll, but they die happy.
Consequently, we have the same 111kmh right lane hoggers but generally a flash helps wake them up. It is entirely legal to undertake "if safe" which my co-driver insists on as she finds the flash rude and no doubt some sort of Empire hangover from myself. I still don't like it much - if they're that bad a driver, what's the chance they move across precisely at the moment you draw level up the inside.
Just came back from Bali a few weeks back. Now there's interesting driving - it's on for young and old but because there's 100% certainty of death, everyone gives way to everyone in a seething non-aggressive mass of mopeds and cars. Perhaps it's that each person doesn't take it as some sort of slight on their manhood that they've 'conceeded' space to another, that the whole thing works.
Terrible road toll, but they die happy.
macdougle said:
You're right there... I was doing near 80 the other day in the outside lane overtaking traffic in the other two lanes and some idiot in an Audi comes barrelling up behind me flashing his lights for me to get out the way, and there's not even anywhere for me to go!! It's ridiculous! But in fairness, I think the original poster was referring to people who don't get out the way when they can, i.e after they've finished overtaking or when they're just sat in the middle or outside lane seemingly oblivious of where they SHOULD be. I see that FAR too often!
This exactly.I take issue with driving inconsiderately. I try at all times to allow for other road users.
If there is a car coming up on my right going a fair bit quicker than myself and I think pulling out to overtake will force them to have to slow I will wait a few seconds let them pass and then get on with it. However that's a rarity as normally I am the fastest car out there (not going to mention cruise speed).
Had occasion the other day was going down the m26 and there was a lorry ahead in lane 1 with a van behind catching it up. My speed was way above theirs so around 1-200 metres back I pulled out to lane two so they would be aware of me.
Van immediately pulled out to lane two using indicator etc. I lifted off around 5mph. Van gets past and immediately pulls back in to lane 1 (too soon imho I would have been ok with lifting off a little more to give him more time) to let me pass when I was around 3/4 car lengths behind.
I gave him a little wave of thanks as I passed and saw him acknowledge. Made my day. Such courteous and aware driving. Not something I often come across these days.
I dont mind mind adjusting my speed or course for other road users so as not to make their lives difficult but it seems most these days couldnt give a f
k and are totally unfocused and daydreaming.Conrod Straight said:
Perhaps it's that each person doesn't take it as some sort of slight on their manhood that they've 'conceeded' space to another, that the whole thing works.
A good point. Not sure it's just about manhood though. I regularly make space for people and this annoys my other half no end. But then she is a woman so is always right 
German said:
Disastrous said:
Baryonyx said:
So much of UK motorway driving is about 'being in the right' and getting your own way.
Not just driving IMO. The UK is becoming unbearable with it's national obsession for busy-bodying. We seem to have an unhealthy concern for whether others are 'obeying the rules' or 'getting away' with something. Queuing mentality magnified, I suppose. We can't bear the thought of someone getting something we feel they don't deserve or that we aren't getting.I asked my German gf about this attitude recently after driving back from Bavaria. I quizzed her about whether someone would try and block someone else from using the full length of a merge-in turn, say, or whether drivers in Germany would care about what speed others were doing. She just replied "Not at all. If someone is speeding, then they are in a hurry so we let them past. It's the Police's job to catch them, not mine and either they will or they won't. Why should I care?" Most of their lives seem to be like this and it's been something of a rude awakening for someone brought up in the UK where we laugh at 'Ze Germans' for being rules-obsessed and anal.
Much better attitude to life IMO and as a result, they are better-educated, more economically stable and actually happier than most of us seem to be. A shame.
Damn, am missing the place now. :-(
I couldn't help noticing that there were far fewer fatties over there too!
I sometimes get angry. I am getting better at relaxing and letting it go. Trying to look at my driving objectively and making the sensible adjustments. Isn't it funny how well we all behave on track days in the main? Some sort of virtual contract seems to exist. I suppose everyone on the track "cares" about what they are doing unlike on the M2. Perhaps the Germans are better at remaining objective.
PS On the A249 which is a death trap of a dual carriageway in pouring rain this morning people were driving their cars without any lights on.
When you see them keep out of the way, they aren't thinking about what they are doing.
PS On the A249 which is a death trap of a dual carriageway in pouring rain this morning people were driving their cars without any lights on.
When you see them keep out of the way, they aren't thinking about what they are doing.
A few simple steps is all we need.
1. Make Motorway driving compulsory in the test......how we can effectively let untrained monkeys on is beyond me?
2. Points for crawling (<50mph take an A-Road) Middle lane hogging / pulling out to overtake when there is clearly a car going way faster than you already overtaking.
3. Do like in France; Trucks, Lorries, Coaches, Caravans and slower moving vehicles are restricted to the inside lane with a lower speed limit. Leaves two lanes for faster traffic to overtake......Maybe if offenders in (2) get a 6 month 'Lorry' restriction when caught might improve things?
Only other thing would be diverting resources from revenue generation (aka speed traps, cameras) to real traffic police who can use their judgement......
Hmmm....I can feel a trip to the Autobahn coming on
1. Make Motorway driving compulsory in the test......how we can effectively let untrained monkeys on is beyond me?
2. Points for crawling (<50mph take an A-Road) Middle lane hogging / pulling out to overtake when there is clearly a car going way faster than you already overtaking.
3. Do like in France; Trucks, Lorries, Coaches, Caravans and slower moving vehicles are restricted to the inside lane with a lower speed limit. Leaves two lanes for faster traffic to overtake......Maybe if offenders in (2) get a 6 month 'Lorry' restriction when caught might improve things?
Only other thing would be diverting resources from revenue generation (aka speed traps, cameras) to real traffic police who can use their judgement......
Hmmm....I can feel a trip to the Autobahn coming on
German said:
This. 100% the reason I left, people laugh at the German stereotype and not one has ever been here.
Too true. Germany and Germans are very similar to the UK, despite what people like to think. Of course there are some differences, but there's nothing wrong with that. I really like Germany.The British WW2 propaganda must have been excellently orchestrated for it to have stayed so prominently in the national memory for the past 70 years.
Let's not get carried away, though -By most measures the UK is a very good place to live!
Maybe i just an exuberant yoof trying to max-out his Saxo, but no speed limits does sound very appealing!
we were in (south west) germany last year, we were in the land cruiser and dad was driving so (sadly) we were just cruising in the inside lane at 80ish.
But we were all rather surprised to see many x6's and 7 series over take us at 90+ before pulling back in front of us and slowing down to 75. Its fair to say my dad got rather irritated by this.
we were in (south west) germany last year, we were in the land cruiser and dad was driving so (sadly) we were just cruising in the inside lane at 80ish.
But we were all rather surprised to see many x6's and 7 series over take us at 90+ before pulling back in front of us and slowing down to 75. Its fair to say my dad got rather irritated by this.
Whilst I generally agree Blog, in recent years all is not what it once was on the 'bahn.
It's quite common to be sitting in the inside lane and see half a dozen cars tailgating at stupidly close distances (barely a couple of meters), hammering past in the outside lane. Or cars even closer, tailgating trucks in the outside lane, that have absolutely nowhere to go. Trying to intimidate them??
Likewise, general arrogance, flashing lights, gestures etc all seem to be common place these days. Then there's the traffic..
It's quite common to be sitting in the inside lane and see half a dozen cars tailgating at stupidly close distances (barely a couple of meters), hammering past in the outside lane. Or cars even closer, tailgating trucks in the outside lane, that have absolutely nowhere to go. Trying to intimidate them??
Likewise, general arrogance, flashing lights, gestures etc all seem to be common place these days. Then there's the traffic..
MC Bodge said:
German said:
This. 100% the reason I left, people laugh at the German stereotype and not one has ever been here.
Too true. Germany and Germans are very similar to the UK, despite what people like to think. Of course there are some differences, but there's nothing wrong with that. I really like Germany.The British WW2 propaganda must have been excellently orchestrated for it to have stayed so prominently in the national memory for the past 70 years.
Let's not get carried away, though -By most measures the UK is a very good place to live!
Baryonyx said:
If only we could import German culture and economic policy to this country and get rid of our useless Conservative led nanny state.
UK motorway discipline is the worst I've ever experienced. In Italy and Spain, for instance, people will drive very fast down the dual carriageways, but doing so with courtesy and respect for others.
Agree with the first statement, but the second is just plain wrong. Driving and road standards in Italy are awful. I regularly used the A4 between Turin and Milan and was constantly amazed at the highspeed tailgating, and the ridiculous ever changing speed limits. I saw road surface catch out a 911 on one occassion. Arrow straight section with such a massive undulation it spat the 911 sideways. The driver must have dropped his cornetto.UK motorway discipline is the worst I've ever experienced. In Italy and Spain, for instance, people will drive very fast down the dual carriageways, but doing so with courtesy and respect for others.
As for Germany, the 600 or so miles I drove there last week, were very pleasent. As is mentioned in the article, most people have their wits about them. I found the most popular thing to rapidly appear in the outside lane were white Passat CC's. Everyone I saw came blasting by.
The biggest difference in my mind is that freight isn't allowed to overtake unless there is a three or four lane stretch. This in my view is the biggest single factor in keeping the roads freer running. Not having to constantly watch for an HGV about to give limited warning, if any, of an overtake and then crawling past at 1mph more than who he's trying to pass. By the way I have been a goods driver so understand their point of view, but I would implement that bit of law here in a flash if I was able.
Howrare said:
Baryonyx said:
If only we could import German culture and economic policy to this country and get rid of our useless Conservative led nanny state.
UK motorway discipline is the worst I've ever experienced. In Italy and Spain, for instance, people will drive very fast down the dual carriageways, but doing so with courtesy and respect for others.
Agree with the first statement, but the second is just plain wrong. Driving and road standards in Italy are awful. I regularly used the A4 between Turin and Milan and was constantly amazed at the highspeed tailgating, and the ridiculous ever changing speed limits. I saw road surface catch out a 911 on one occassion. Arrow straight section with such a massive undulation it spat the 911 sideways. The driver must have dropped his cornetto.UK motorway discipline is the worst I've ever experienced. In Italy and Spain, for instance, people will drive very fast down the dual carriageways, but doing so with courtesy and respect for others.
As for Germany, the 600 or so miles I drove there last week, were very pleasent. As is mentioned in the article, most people have their wits about them. I found the most popular thing to rapidly appear in the outside lane were white Passat CC's. Everyone I saw came blasting by.
The biggest difference in my mind is that freight isn't allowed to overtake unless there is a three or four lane stretch. This in my view is the biggest single factor in keeping the roads freer running. Not having to constantly watch for an HGV about to give limited warning, if any, of an overtake and then crawling past at 1mph more than who he's trying to pass. By the way I have been a goods driver so understand their point of view, but I would implement that bit of law here in a flash if I was able.
"And if that makes me sound like the sort of chap who sits two inches from the car in front, then I don't intend it to - it's just ruddy irritating when you want to make progress"
I hear you there. I was tootling to Reading last Saturday on the M4, in the fast lane, stuck behind an RX8 and he would not move over. I don't understand it. At one stage the entire 3 lanes were clear but he would not move to the middle lane at all. I obviously wasn't going to undertake him but when you have an XJR up your trumpet at up to 120 mph, do the sensible thing and shift over... I think he was upset that an old mans car was ready to show him a very clean pair of heels, bless...
I hear you there. I was tootling to Reading last Saturday on the M4, in the fast lane, stuck behind an RX8 and he would not move over. I don't understand it. At one stage the entire 3 lanes were clear but he would not move to the middle lane at all. I obviously wasn't going to undertake him but when you have an XJR up your trumpet at up to 120 mph, do the sensible thing and shift over... I think he was upset that an old mans car was ready to show him a very clean pair of heels, bless...
900T-R said:
Which is called 'Nötigung' and looked upon very sternly by plod and courts alike. Especially since a Mercedes test driver came barreling upon a Kia containing a young mother and child which went off the road and into a tree, killing both occupants, as a result.
I find the Germans have still some common sense left - do something naughty that doesn't really endanger or greatly inconvenience anyone and you'll get a gentle reminder of the rules, maybe accompanied by a small fine to make sure it sticks; do something stupid, reckless or criminal and you can count on the full weight of thewir justice system being applied.
I remember that- wasn't he a test driver nicknamed 'TurboRolf' or something?I find the Germans have still some common sense left - do something naughty that doesn't really endanger or greatly inconvenience anyone and you'll get a gentle reminder of the rules, maybe accompanied by a small fine to make sure it sticks; do something stupid, reckless or criminal and you can count on the full weight of thewir justice system being applied.
It's doubly alarming when they do it in the wet.
As I stated earlier it's quite amusing when they can't actually get past though due to the electronic nanny.
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