Is the MEV Exocet the modern day Caterham Lotus 7 ?
Discussion
Noger said:
Ah, so if you change the chassis and the engine, you can go faster...blimey, who knew. Can I swap my S3 for the Lola chassis and supercharged Duratec then please.... 
The comparison that was suggested with the lap times at Anglesey was the R300 - the Caterham Superlite. Noger said:
The Exocets running at Anglesey recently appear to be running about Roadsport B pace. Slower than every Supersport.
R300 lap record is 1:37 (set by Johnny5 of this parish).
The race Exocet (MX150R) is no different to the standard Exocet apart from the full roll cage. So 130bhp and 816kg. Compared to a Roadsport Caterham 7 at 125bhp and 550kg you're saying they running around the same pace. Good R300 lap record is 1:37 (set by Johnny5 of this parish).
AS the 150R will set you back <£6000 all up, the Roadsport will hit you for the best part of £20kThe Lightweight Exocet would be more comparable to the Supersport, as they've both got the lighter chassis and more powerful engines. I'm not sure on the prices of the Lightweight kit, but assume it would be a little more than the 150R, so £7k, whereas the Supersport wants an extra £20k
Noger said:
Probably quite a few in the RGB that would give it a run for its money. But I agree about it looking a bit different to everything else, and the stripped down Rocket looks amazing. Love it.
I don't think anyone's under any illusions the Exocet is the Caterham replacement, but if you're after a nice cheap quick 2 seater that you can put together yourself and have the handling and performance equal to a car 3x the price, it's got to be one on the list.
HustleRussell said:
This is the only part I'm struggling- is it's handling and performance really equal to a Caterham Superlight? Really?
That's not what I said though The handling and performance is easily comparable to the Roadsport, as has been pointed out. The £20k 125-175bhp model, which is over 3x the cost.
What did make me smile was when I was loading the 150R onto the trailer on Friday. Some guy came over with his partner/missus/girlfriend or whatever she was and said to me - no word of a lie "Ere mate, is that one of those Caterhams?"
There's always going to be different variations on the basic model of the car to make it lighter/faster/better handling but I think the guys at MeV have got the Exocet pretty well nailed. The price and donor vehicle will mean it could become an extremely popular addition to the kit car market for those who want to have something a little different to the 7esque cars that are currently available.
for a small amount of money, it can handle the same, or outhandle, and STILL be cheaper.
In all truth, i could buy a miata, buy an exocet, turbo kit, later model brakes, coilovers revalved, FIA driver seat, a cage, and STILL spend less than a caterham with half the work.
like i said. two complete different cars we are comparing at THIS POINT. Caterham at the same stage as the exocet in its life cycle they are comparable.
at this point, they are two different leagues for two different types of people. not everyone wants to spend 30kUSD on a toy car. 10Kusd is reasonable for a toy for for people my age (20s)
In all truth, i could buy a miata, buy an exocet, turbo kit, later model brakes, coilovers revalved, FIA driver seat, a cage, and STILL spend less than a caterham with half the work.
like i said. two complete different cars we are comparing at THIS POINT. Caterham at the same stage as the exocet in its life cycle they are comparable.
at this point, they are two different leagues for two different types of people. not everyone wants to spend 30kUSD on a toy car. 10Kusd is reasonable for a toy for for people my age (20s)
Ferg said:
I think actually, that the problem with this thread is the title.
There is no such thing as a 'Caterham Lotus 7'.
If the question is: 'Is the MEV Exocet the modern day Caterham 7 ?'
Then the answer is, 'No, The Caterham 7 is.'
If the question is: 'Is the MEV Exocet the modern day Lotus 7 ?'
Then the answer is, 'Yes, it probably is.'
Agreed, BUT, I wonder what the Exocet cost is in relation to sallery compared with a Lotus 7 kit and sallery of 1960?There is no such thing as a 'Caterham Lotus 7'.
If the question is: 'Is the MEV Exocet the modern day Caterham 7 ?'
Then the answer is, 'No, The Caterham 7 is.'
If the question is: 'Is the MEV Exocet the modern day Lotus 7 ?'
Then the answer is, 'Yes, it probably is.'
One man that could enlighten us is Steffan, as reading his other posts on KIT CARS he is an accountant and knowledgeable kit car man, are you reading Steffan? It would be fun to hear your views.
Lotus sold the 7 as a kit to avoid purchase tax I think. Take say a shop worker wage of 1960 and compare with today, calcs based on "average" wage irritate me as they don't relate to Mr Average!
Stuart Mills said:
Lotus sold the 7 as a kit to avoid purchase tax I think.
I think even kit cars were subject to tax as well, if they were sold with assembly instructions. The way I heard it was Lotus provided the kits with disassembly instructions, and the builders followed the instructions backwards.xRIEx said:
Stuart Mills said:
Lotus sold the 7 as a kit to avoid purchase tax I think.
I think even kit cars were subject to tax as well, if they were sold with assembly instructions. The way I heard it was Lotus provided the kits with disassembly instructions, and the builders followed the instructions backwards.Stuart Mills said:
Ferg said:
I think actually, that the problem with this thread is the title.
There is no such thing as a 'Caterham Lotus 7'.
If the question is: 'Is the MEV Exocet the modern day Caterham 7 ?'
Then the answer is, 'No, The Caterham 7 is.'
If the question is: 'Is the MEV Exocet the modern day Lotus 7 ?'
Then the answer is, 'Yes, it probably is.'
Agreed, BUT, I wonder what the Exocet cost is in relation to sallery compared with a Lotus 7 kit and sallery of 1960?There is no such thing as a 'Caterham Lotus 7'.
If the question is: 'Is the MEV Exocet the modern day Caterham 7 ?'
Then the answer is, 'No, The Caterham 7 is.'
If the question is: 'Is the MEV Exocet the modern day Lotus 7 ?'
Then the answer is, 'Yes, it probably is.'
One man that could enlighten us is Steffan, as reading his other posts on KIT CARS he is an accountant and knowledgeable kit car man, are you reading Steffan? It would be fun to hear your views.
Lotus sold the 7 as a kit to avoid purchase tax I think. Take say a shop worker wage of 1960 and compare with today, calcs based on "average" wage irritate me as they don't relate to Mr Average!
It's completely irrelevant.
What cars were there in the 1950s that were the equivalent of a Mazda MX5?
Answer: none. But that's technological progress for you.
The original Caterhams were designed to be built from a Ford 10 or an austin seven as a donor. What chapman managed to do for such low cost was create a car that was (relatively) lightyears different from the donor, whereas what your doing is taking what is widely regarded as the most complete, cheap sports car of the 1990's and 2000's and making it a smidge quicker through weight reduction whilst changing the body shape.
The answer to the OP's question is evidently no.
The Exocet is completely different in every regard, it appeals to different people.
MEV have done good job at creating a budget alternative to the Caterham, but they don't really compare at all imo.
TheFreak said:
The handling and performance is easily comparable to the Roadsport, as has been pointed out. The £20k 125-175bhp model, which is over 3x the cost.
But £20k will get you a Supersport which handles exactly the same as an R500! And at £20k it may be 3x the cost, but it's also 3x the car!I'm trying not to fall in to the armchair test driver catagory here, but I really, really struggle to see how the MEVs on limit handling can be as good as a Caterham. The geomety of the suspension and the chassis are just not correct on the MEV. It's not a case of 'oh but it's a kit car'. It's not an excuse for simple engineering principals. The suspension loads go directly in to unsupported beams in the chassis for goodness sake! This WILL compromise suspension geomety when loaded.
Let's stop comparing it to a Caterham here. Without a major redesign, the basic principals just aren't correct enough. Does that make it a terrible car no. For someone looking for a cheap kit car, it's fine, but it just simply isn't a Caterham.
If we're going to continue the debate, why don't we start a parallel one.
Is the the Extreme Sports Car F430 replica kit
(http://www.extreme-sportscars.com/) the next Noble M12?
xRIEx said:
Stuart Mills said:
Lotus sold the 7 as a kit to avoid purchase tax I think.
I think even kit cars were subject to tax as well, if they were sold with assembly instructions. The way I heard it was Lotus provided the kits with disassembly instructions, and the builders followed the instructions backwards.The old Victorian stables, complete with roaring fire and twisting chimney was my garage, Free coal for the Parson in those days!! I wish I had it know!!
The Falcon was a disaster as a kit, it was literally a bag of bits and a sheet of Roneo copied and distinctly unreadable instructions. My main help was the Church Organist who was a marvelous chap, brilliant musician, RAF electrical specialist by trade and he could have built a Rolls Royce on his own. He showed me what to do.
The Lotus came next.
The British tax system of the time (1960's)(Purchase Tax) meant the car could be supplied as a kit without attracting the tax surcharge that would apply if sold in assembled form. This was a good example of Colin Chapman thinking. Colin Chapman the taxman and bureaucracy and every opportunity to avoid them appealed to his cavalier nature.
There were very few instructions so reverse assembly was the best guide. In reality the "Instructions" with Kit Cars were pretty minimalist until the boom of the 1980's saw Build a Car for under £250 (never possible IMO) and the Ron Champion books which entirely changed kit car knowledge for the better.
Turning to Stuart Mills question on Kit Car economics the change in the value of money makes any meaningful comparison very difficult. My wages were £6.00 a week as an articled clerk. They had risen a bit by retirement time. At the time of my earliest kit builds, cars were beyond most of the public in the UK. Only privileged families could afford a car, although this was changing.
The Kit Car market in the 1950's and 1960's was very orientated towards the racing and competition element and far less developed than today. There was really no control over Kit Car production and building standards and there were many cases of unsafe cars unleashed in the road.
Kit cars then, were undoubtedly a luxury product and the price was very high in relation to wages then. That is why, years later when VAT was introduced Chapman pulled out. He could not see a future with VAT on Kit Cars. Graham Nearn could. The rest is history.
There can be no question that Kit Cars have improved across the board and completion standards today are in a different league for every manufacturer. Just a well, given the volume of traffic. This again makes meaningful comparisons difficult.
The Exocet is available as a Kit for £2640 including VAT. (Figures from MEV Web site. Which is in my opinion an exceptionally good price given the extent of the kit and the quality of the components.
Allowing £450 for the donor (MEV web site) and realising say £250 for the shell (my guess), and unwanted bits, then the value for money benefits are just blindingly obvious.
There will be other costs for new consumables, such as pipes, exhaust etc, and IVA if needed and all the other costs of fluids and the like. But this is really, rock bottom priced, product and uniquely good value for money.
Could any other Kit Car be built at anywhere near this price, let alone a really competent one, from a recognised builder and designer? With considerable track experience? I doubt it. Indeed I would be interested to hear if anyone on PH, can suggest, a cheaper build, or equivalent completed car at anywhere near this price.
Others have suggested £15,000 for a Caterham, which is probably as cheap as this can be done for that marque. But I think the comparison itself is not really appropriate. Two different cars offering, two very different, indeed unique results. It is NOT a competition. Each car stands on its own merit.
IMO as value for money and a way into Kit Cars, with a really healthy, price and performance package, the MEV Exocet, is quite simply, on its own. There is no comparable priced product available. Of which I am aware.
Thank you Steffan. Does anone know what you got for £399 from Lotus in 1960? It appears that was the kit price but I am not clear if it was based on a donor car or was actually a kit in a box with a brand new everything. I hope it included everything as a new Mini was only a few quid more in 1960.
Sorry, but I simply couldn't spend money on something that looked like that.
I'm sure it drives well, and I'm sure it's fast enough, and further- I hope that it's creator makes a fortune making it.
But....I simply couldn't get past the looks- I know the die hard racing fraternity will spout "function over form", but honestly- just look at. Although it is good value, it looks cheap. I can't think of many people who aspire to have something cheap.
If you really must race something, just race an MX5.
Caterham has the looks, the legend, and a fanatical following for a bloody good reason.
I'm sure it drives well, and I'm sure it's fast enough, and further- I hope that it's creator makes a fortune making it.
But....I simply couldn't get past the looks- I know the die hard racing fraternity will spout "function over form", but honestly- just look at. Although it is good value, it looks cheap. I can't think of many people who aspire to have something cheap.
If you really must race something, just race an MX5.
Caterham has the looks, the legend, and a fanatical following for a bloody good reason.
Stuart Mills said:
Thank you Steffan. Does anone know what you got for £399 from Lotus in 1960? It appears that was the kit price but I am not clear if it was based on a donor car or was actually a kit in a box with a brand new everything. I hope it included everything as a new Mini was only a few quid more in 1960.
Frankly my memory of the actual prices then is not good. But Lotus were offering a complete (Chapmanesque complete!!) car as a package which was supposed to be buildable in a week. It wasn't!!I bought a Mark II twice and they were based on various assemblies from either BMC or Ford parts
I bought Ford and fitted the early Twin Cam Engine to mine, I actually met Chapman twice, when buying my cars, he was undoubtedly the boss and a real power driver of the business. Very short tempered, but then if, you are that gifted, you do tend to be, a little tetchy.
The kit was certainly less than the price of a Mini which I do remember because that was my daily driver for years. Wikipedia quote £399 so I do think that was probably the price.
Great car I wish I had it now. I wrote it off (see above) bought another, then got married. I still regret the cars.
here's a point consider, we sold over 200 in less than 2 years.
Compare the price to the 1960 Lotus 7 and it goes like this if you can believe Wiki.
1960 Lotus 7 kit £399, average wage less than £800 per annum or 50% of the average wage.
2012 MEV Exocet comp kit exc donor £2200, average wage £44k P.A
That means that if I included all new parts then I would have to times it by 10 to get to 50% of the current average wage!
Fatcs are that if people like 7's then they tend not to like Exocet as they are accustomed to a narrow body car.
It's very easy to make the Exocet narrower, you just base a 7 on an MX5. They are now offered by MNR and Roadrunner, great things, dearer to build than Exocet as they don't use any where near as much of the MX5 as we do.
For those keen on MX5 dynamics then fit the parts from one in an Exocet that is one third lighter and it will have 30% less pushing it sideways in corners, 30% less to arrest and 30% less mass to push.
Compare the price to the 1960 Lotus 7 and it goes like this if you can believe Wiki.
1960 Lotus 7 kit £399, average wage less than £800 per annum or 50% of the average wage.
2012 MEV Exocet comp kit exc donor £2200, average wage £44k P.A
That means that if I included all new parts then I would have to times it by 10 to get to 50% of the current average wage!
Fatcs are that if people like 7's then they tend not to like Exocet as they are accustomed to a narrow body car.
It's very easy to make the Exocet narrower, you just base a 7 on an MX5. They are now offered by MNR and Roadrunner, great things, dearer to build than Exocet as they don't use any where near as much of the MX5 as we do.
For those keen on MX5 dynamics then fit the parts from one in an Exocet that is one third lighter and it will have 30% less pushing it sideways in corners, 30% less to arrest and 30% less mass to push.
Sorry, I just asked Mr Google, I asked again and now I see quotes around 28k P.A
It seems that Lotus 7 was probably quite good value in 1960. £399 per kit is 50% of the quoted average wage in 1960. Compared to an average wage of say £28k today 50% of which would buy a decent new Ford.
It seems that Lotus 7 was probably quite good value in 1960. £399 per kit is 50% of the quoted average wage in 1960. Compared to an average wage of say £28k today 50% of which would buy a decent new Ford.
Edited by Stuart Mills on Wednesday 16th May 19:08
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