RE: Gazoo shows 320hp GT 86

[Bladedancer]

kambites said:

I'm sure you'll have to add at least 10k to that price if it ever goes on sale in this form.

It depends. If it's a small run made by 3rd party then yes. If Toyota makes it then no. All they have to do is ask Subaru nicely to give them the 320 bhp boxer they use in the STI.

[kambites]

Bladedancer said:

kambites said:

I'm sure you'll have to add at least 10k to that price if it ever goes on sale in this form.

It depends. If it's a small run made by 3rd party then yes. If Toyota makes it then no. All they have to do is ask Subaru nicely to give them the 320 bhp boxer they use in the STI.

The engine isn't the only modification, and even if it was you'd never do the whole thing for 2k.

I'd be astounded if a GT86 with 300+ bhp ever hits the market at under 35k. And why should it? On paper this thing would be up against the Evora S, Cayman R and basic spec 911C2. I know people will pay a lot for the Porsche badge, but 20k+? The only competition that would get close at 30k is the 370Z, but that has a significantly lower power to weight ratio, isn't as driver focussed, and doesn't have rear seats.

Besides, I think a high pressure turbo would ruin the car.

Edited by kambites on Friday 18th May 09:25

[nickfrog]

Shurv said:

The whingers are only slagging it off cos they're not good enough drivers to exploit the massive fun to be had from this car.The only way they can drive quickly is by having a turbo or loads of power, then only in a straight line.Discuss.Those who have driven this car, and have good driving skills, have commented that you need to "get" this car before you understand it and learn to love it.A quick drive won't do this.So many of you are missing the whole point.This car will appeal to a great many people,it starts off with a good price and great value/spec for a new car. It has a 5 year warranty, low co2,low RFL,decent economy, low BIK for company car drivers and will be cheap to run and own in general.On top of this it will be available on a great finance rate with good residuals. The whole point of the thing is that for those who like their cars a bit more spicy, the aftermarket have been given the official green light to go to town on this car,meaning that you can have it exactly how you want it,depending upon what you want.Happy days!!!No one else gives you this sort of basis to create a usable sports car that suits you 100%. I can see many of these being kept and loved for many years,just like a bespoke pair of shoes.

It's poor value when you realise that a M135i 3-dr will be under £30k list. That's 320hp, 4-pot calipers, leather, xenons, etc etc etc
But maybe I am just saying that because I am a poor driver who needs all that power to catch up with proper driving gods who hit every apex and can spend all day playing with the limits of traction and lateral grip ?

[s m]

nickfrog said:

It's poor value when you realise that a M135i 3-dr will be under £30k list. That's 320hp, 4-pot calipers, leather, xenons, etc etc etc
But maybe I am just saying that because I am a poor driver who needs all that power to catch up with proper driving gods who hit every apex and can spend all day playing with the limits of traction and lateral grip ?

Yes, that M135i will look cheap even if you added a Quaife if that £30k new price is realistic

[isee]

pilchardthecat said:

320hp
1,280kg
RWD

Build it. Cash waiting.

Again, not trolling and seriously like the car but something seems off...
This is basically a track toy for most buyers correct?

An e36 m3 comes with over 300bhp stock and from reading various forums getting it to under 1300kg is quite easy. It's also RWD and handles extremely well.

What is new/special about this car to deserve such a frenzied reception like it was something not done before?

[kambites]

s m said:

nickfrog said:

It's poor value when you realise that a M135i 3-dr will be under £30k list. That's 320hp, 4-pot calipers, leather, xenons, etc etc etc
But maybe I am just saying that because I am a poor driver who needs all that power to catch up with proper driving gods who hit every apex and can spend all day playing with the limits of traction and lateral grip ?

Yes, that M135i will look cheap even if you added a Quaife if that £30k new price is realistic

I don't really see them as competitors. Saying that the 1-series makes this look expensive is like saying the M3 makes the 911 look expensive, and on numbers alone it's true - ultimately though, the M3 always feels like a saloon car to drive (at least to me) and I suspect the 1-series will have the same problem when compared to this.

In fact, you could even compare the M135i to the bottom of the 911 range if you look purely at the numbers.

[kambites]

isee said:

This is basically a track toy for most buyers correct?

What on earth gives you that idea? I'd be amazed if more than 5% of the UK cars ever see a track.

I think it's not so much that cars of this kind haven't been seen before, it's more that they haven't been seen recenty. Besides, the E36 M3 was surely massively more expensive?

[s m]

kambites said:

s m said:

nickfrog said:

It's poor value when you realise that a M135i 3-dr will be under £30k list. That's 320hp, 4-pot calipers, leather, xenons, etc etc etc
But maybe I am just saying that because I am a poor driver who needs all that power to catch up with proper driving gods who hit every apex and can spend all day playing with the limits of traction and lateral grip ?

Yes, that M135i will look cheap even if you added a Quaife if that £30k new price is realistic

I don't really see them as competitors. Saying that the 1-series makes this look expensive is like saying the M3 makes the 911 look expensive, and on numbers alone it's true - ultimately though, the M3 always feels like a saloon car to drive (at least to me) and I suspect the 1-series will have the same problem when compared to this.

In fact, you could even compare the M135i to the bottom of the 911 range if you look purely at the numbers.

I'd consider an M135i with 4 seats at 30k to be a direct competitor to a 4-seater turbo GT86 at 35k - both rwd coupes with 300+bhp

[kambites]

s m said:

I'd consider an M135i with 4 seats at 30k to be a direct competitor to a 4-seater turbo GT86 at 35k - both rwd coupes with 300+bhp

The M135i isn't a coupe? Even the "1-series coupe" is more 2-door saloon than coupe, but the M135i is based on the hatch anyway, isn't it?

[isee]

kambites said:

What on earth gives you that idea? I'd be amazed if more than 5% of the UK cars ever see a track.

I think it's not so much that cars of this kind haven't been seen before, it's more that they haven't been seen recenty. Besides, the E36 M3 was surely massively more expensive?

I see, don;t scooby have a decent wrx version that is comparable in stats and price already?

[s m]

kambites said:

s m said:

I'd consider an M135i with 4 seats at 30k to be a direct competitor to a 4-seater turbo GT86 at 35k - both rwd coupes with 300+bhp

The M135i isn't a coupe?

Fair point on that one - but I'd still say it's a 'similar' car just with a hatch.

[kambites]

isee said:

kambites said:

What on earth gives you that idea? I'd be amazed if more than 5% of the UK cars ever see a track.

I think it's not so much that cars of this kind haven't been seen before, it's more that they haven't been seen recenty. Besides, the E36 M3 was surely massively more expensive?

I see, don;t scooby have a decent wrx version that is comparable in stats and price already?

No. The only cars on the market are N/A and have about 200bhp.

And even if a 300bhp car is released, it wont be priced against the M3, that would be lunacy.

[nickfrog]

s m said:

Yes, that M135i will look cheap even if you added a Quaife if that £30k new price is realistic

Yes it's £29,995 officially. Brokers usually offer -10% on BMWs but I am not sure how much they offer on the GT86 so we could be in a situation where the BMW may be cheaper than the Toyota with leather...and basic brakes that will 2/3 laps.

[kambites]

s m said:

Fair point on that one - but I'd still say it's a 'similar' car just with a hatch.

Maybe it's just a difference of priority, but to me they seem like completely different concepts. The GT86 is more a Z4 coupe competitor than a 1-series one (or would be if they still made a coupe Z4) despite the lack of seats in the Z4. Do you consider a 911C2 to be a direct competitor for the M135i too? It also has quite similar numbers.

[Stig]

356Speedster said:

And I think what this car shows is that relying on the old "RWD is all it needs" debate is not enough. From the reports coming thru', it does not employ that rear wheel power excellently at all, in fact it's quite the oposite. Here, watch this to the end and listen to the comments.....

http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/trackdayvideos/282994/...

In Evo's haste to get a 'scoop' they had to use an auto - hardly a fair crack of the whip for the test is it? Secondly, the BRZ has a different suspension setup to the GT86 so the dynamics will be different (something Barker was moaning about of the BRZ).

The ethos of the car isn't about all-out performance at this stage, it's about fun at more realistic speeds and, let's face it, increasingly those speeds are dropping through legislation. Wanging on a turbo or supercharger may you feel like a bhp hero, but performance is inversely proportional to cost/risk. Besides, all cars evolve and we're seeing the 1st Gen car here - if they'd maxxed every performance aspect from the start it would make it pretty hard to evolve the car wouldn' it?

The GT86 press launch is ongoing at the moment, so expect to see a broader church of reviews of the Toyota shortly. That said, I treat most of what journo's write with a pinch of salt - so best to try it for yourselves.

Edited by Stig on Friday 18th May 09:56

[nickfrog]

kambites said:

Maybe it's just a difference of priority, but to me they seem like completely different concepts. The GT86 is more a Z4 coupe competitor than a 1-series one (or would be if they still made a coupe Z4) despite the lack of seats in the Z4. Do you consider a 911C2 to be a direct competitor for the M135i too? It also has quite similar numbers.

You're just analysing the marketing side of things. In the real world, the dynamic differences will be minor for a ROAD car, where even the grip benefits of the low CoG are absorbed by the eco tyres.

The bottom line is both cars have a cost to make and market, regardless which "segment" they're in, and the BMW makes the Toyota look VERY expensive to me.

[kambites]

nickfrog said:

kambites said:

Maybe it's just a difference of priority, but to me they seem like completely different concepts. The GT86 is more a Z4 coupe competitor than a 1-series one (or would be if they still made a coupe Z4) despite the lack of seats in the Z4. Do you consider a 911C2 to be a direct competitor for the M135i too? It also has quite similar numbers.

You're just analysing the marketing side of things. In the real world, the dynamic differences will be minor for a ROAD car, where even the grip benefits of the low CoG are absorbed by the eco tyres.

The bottom line is both cars have a cost to make and market, regardless which "segment" they're in, and the BMW makes the Toyota look VERY expensive to me.

So what about the 911 and Cayman R? They're massively more expensive than the BMW and, with your way of looking at things, seem to offer little or nothing more?

I guess we just have different priorities, but as and when I need (small) rear seats for kids, the GT86, 911, Evora, GTR, etc. will all be on my list. The 1-series will not.

[s m]

kambites said:

s m said:

Fair point on that one - but I'd still say it's a 'similar' car just with a hatch.

Maybe it's just a difference of priority, but to me they seem like completely different concepts. The GT86 is more a Z4 coupe competitor than a 1-series one (or would be if they still made a coupe Z4) despite the lack of seats in the Z4. Do you consider a 911C2 to be a direct competitor for the M135i too? It also has quite similar numbers.

Put it like this, if I had 35k and wanted a sporty 4 seater rwd car I'd certainly consider an M135i hatch if I was looking at cars in the £30k+ bracket ( such as a possible turbo GT86 with 320ishbhp ).
A 370Z is a hatchback too isn't it and that's already been put up against the GT86/BRZ coupe in a few tests.

A 911 might be too much for the price bracket and the Cayman, 370Z are only 2 seats although closer in price

[kambites]

s m said:

kambites said:

s m said:

Fair point on that one - but I'd still say it's a 'similar' car just with a hatch.

Maybe it's just a difference of priority, but to me they seem like completely different concepts. The GT86 is more a Z4 coupe competitor than a 1-series one (or would be if they still made a coupe Z4) despite the lack of seats in the Z4. Do you consider a 911C2 to be a direct competitor for the M135i too? It also has quite similar numbers.

Put it like this, if I had 35k and wanted a sporty 4 seater rwd car I'd certainly consider an M135i hatch if I was looking at cars in the £30k+ bracket ( such as a possible turbo GT86 with 320ishbhp ).
A 370Z is a hatchback too isn't it and that's already been put up against the GT86/BRZ coupe in a few tests.

A 911 might be too much for the price bracket and the Cayman, 370Z are only 2 seats although closer in price

Hang on, are you saying that if you had, say, 50k to buy a car you wouldn't drive 30k cars because they're too cheap, despite the fact that they might be better? Do people really pick a "price bracket" rather than a "maximum price" when they set out to buy a car?

If you're not saying that, I still don't see why you don't view the 911 as a massively overpriced 1-series competitor.


ETA: For what it's worth though, it does sound like the M135i will be a phenominal value car when it comes out. If I was in the market for a hot hatch, it would be top of my list of cars to drive.

Edited by kambites on Friday 18th May 10:01

[nickfrog]

kambites said:

If you're not saying that, I still don't see why you don't view the 911 as a massively overpriced 1-series competitor.

I think it is. I couldn't live with a 911 front end vagueness and pogo, but that's just me.

I am a massive Porsche fan but their pricing is very optimistic.