RE: Gazoo shows 320hp GT 86
Discussion
nickfrog said:
kambites said:
If you're not saying that, I still don't see why you don't view the 911 as a massively overpriced 1-series competitor. 
I think it is. I couldn't live with a 911 front end vagueness and pogo, but that's just me.I am a massive Porsche fan but their pricing is very optimistic.
LuS1fer said:
Close.
Kill the rear table, keep the original seats and proper seat belts and job done. Not everyone who likes power and handling is into the automotive bondage of a full harness.
Would it be a problem for type approval to fit both types of seat-belt as standard? No manufacturers seem to do it, but it would actually be quite useful in some cars. Kill the rear table, keep the original seats and proper seat belts and job done. Not everyone who likes power and handling is into the automotive bondage of a full harness.
Stig said:
In Evo's haste to get a 'scoop' they had to use an auto - hardly a fair crack of the whip for the test is it? Secondly, the BRZ has a different suspension setup to the GT86 so the dynamics will be different (something Barker was moaning about of the BRZ).
The ethos of the car isn't about all-out performance at this stage, it's about fun at more realistic speeds and, let's face it, increasingly those speeds are dropping through legislation. Wanging on a turbo or supercharger may you feel like a bhp hero, but performance is inversely proportional to cost/risk. Besides, all cars evolve and we're seeing the 1st Gen car here - if they'd maxxed every performance aspect from the start it would make it pretty hard to evolve the car wouldn' it?
The GT86 press launch is ongoing at the moment, so expect to see a broader church of reviews of the Toyota shortly. That said, I treat most of what journo's write with a pinch of salt - so best to try it for yourselves.
Morning Stig, nice to hear from you again!The ethos of the car isn't about all-out performance at this stage, it's about fun at more realistic speeds and, let's face it, increasingly those speeds are dropping through legislation. Wanging on a turbo or supercharger may you feel like a bhp hero, but performance is inversely proportional to cost/risk. Besides, all cars evolve and we're seeing the 1st Gen car here - if they'd maxxed every performance aspect from the start it would make it pretty hard to evolve the car wouldn' it?
The GT86 press launch is ongoing at the moment, so expect to see a broader church of reviews of the Toyota shortly. That said, I treat most of what journo's write with a pinch of salt - so best to try it for yourselves.
You might have missed my other comments.... I definately wasn't hoping for a BHP hero and accepting this is the Mk1 car, my concerns are that with the 50 bhp & lb/ft it needs to really make it fun (not a Ferrari chaser!), it's going to be a lot more than the already steep £25K starting price. Shame in my book.
Regarding the chassis, it's not just evo who have had missgivings about the setup, the GT86 review by JL & GJ I noted have also said the same things.
My hope now is that Toyota & Subaru sell enough cars to keep the project alive and that they listen to both the good feedback & constructive criticism and that we see some sensibly priced evolutions in the future.
Afterall, if this car sells and evolves, we can only hope for more competition from other manufacturers too
ultimategroupB said:
Kong said:
The GT86 is a lot cheaper than the E30 M3 will have cost back in the 80's - they are hardly rivals.
It is also much more economical and safe. I'm sure Toyota could have done better if we still had 1980's petrol prices and 1980's crash safety regulations.
Yes but we're not back in the 80's. I can buy a TV today for next to nothing that would have cost a small fortune in the 80's.It is also much more economical and safe. I'm sure Toyota could have done better if we still had 1980's petrol prices and 1980's crash safety regulations.
kambites said:
s m said:
Put it like this, if I had 35k and wanted a sporty 4 seater rwd car I'd certainly consider an M135i hatch if I was looking at cars in the £30k+ bracket ( such as a possible turbo GT86 with 320ishbhp ).
A 370Z is a hatchback too isn't it and that's already been put up against the GT86/BRZ coupe in a few tests.
A 911 might be too much for the price bracket and the Cayman, 370Z are only 2 seats although closer in price
Hang on, are you saying that if you had, say, 50k to buy a car you wouldn't drive 30k cars because they're too cheap, despite the fact that they might be better? Do people really pick a "price bracket" rather than a "maximum price" when they set out to buy a car? A 370Z is a hatchback too isn't it and that's already been put up against the GT86/BRZ coupe in a few tests.
A 911 might be too much for the price bracket and the Cayman, 370Z are only 2 seats although closer in price
If you're not saying that, I still don't see why you don't view the 911 as a massively overpriced 1-series competitor.
ETA: For what it's worth though, it does sound like the M135i will be a phenominal value car when it comes out. If I was in the market for a hot hatch, it would be top of my list of cars to drive.
Edited by kambites on Friday 18th May 10:01
Bladedancer said:
Loose the wing, put it on the market for about 28k and get ready to score.
This is why that is not going to happen. By 2015, manufactuers are going to be getting massive fines for going over a corporate average of 130g/km. Once they have breached that limit they will face an escalating fine for every g/km that every car they sell is over the limit. Toyota is massively proud of being pretty much on target. Subaru is - not to put too fine a point on it - f
ked. It is too dependent on the high performance rally rep market and the rest of its volumes are dominated by big 4x4 estates and SUVs. It desperately needs to sell more diesels and fewer WRXs. What it needs is something that exploits the company's sporting credentials but which has lower emissions. In Europe, that is what Subaru needs the BRZ for. What it doesn't need is something with emissions virtually as bad as the WRX/STi problem it has.I don't think people realise how much of an effect this legislation is going to have as it is phased in over the next few years. Selling large volumes of anything juicy and cheap is going to get very difficult unless you are also selling absolutely loads of poxy eco-cars.
otolith said:
This is why that is not going to happen. By 2015, manufactuers are going to be getting massive fines for going over a corporate average of 130g/km. Once they have breached that limit they will face an escalating fine for every g/km that every car they sell is over the limit. Toyota is massively proud of being pretty much on target.
Subaru is - not to put too fine a point on it - fked. It is too dependent on the high performance rally rep market and the rest of its volumes are dominated by big 4x4 estates and SUVs. It desperately needs to sell more diesels and fewer WRXs. What it needs is something that exploits the company's sporting credentials but which has lower emissions. In Europe, that is what Subaru needs the BRZ for. What it doesn't need is something with emissions virtually as bad as the WRX/STi problem it has.
I don't think people realise how much of an effect this legislation is going to have as it is phased in over the next few years. Selling large volumes of anything juicy and cheap is going to get very difficult unless you are also selling absolutely loads of poxy eco-cars.
Or they take the Lotus route and you effectively buy a VIN plate and bolt on the go faster bits Subaru is - not to put too fine a point on it - f
ked. It is too dependent on the high performance rally rep market and the rest of its volumes are dominated by big 4x4 estates and SUVs. It desperately needs to sell more diesels and fewer WRXs. What it needs is something that exploits the company's sporting credentials but which has lower emissions. In Europe, that is what Subaru needs the BRZ for. What it doesn't need is something with emissions virtually as bad as the WRX/STi problem it has.I don't think people realise how much of an effect this legislation is going to have as it is phased in over the next few years. Selling large volumes of anything juicy and cheap is going to get very difficult unless you are also selling absolutely loads of poxy eco-cars.
s m said:
kambites said:
s m said:
Fair point on that one - but I'd still say it's a 'similar' car just with a hatch.
Maybe it's just a difference of priority, but to me they seem like completely different concepts. The GT86 is more a Z4 coupe competitor than a 1-series one (or would be if they still made a coupe Z4) despite the lack of seats in the Z4. Do you consider a 911C2 to be a direct competitor for the M135i too? It also has quite similar numbers. A 370Z is a hatchback too isn't it and that's already been put up against the GT86/BRZ coupe in a few tests.
A 911 might be too much for the price bracket and the Cayman, 370Z are only 2 seats although closer in price
elementad said:
s m said:
kambites said:
s m said:
Fair point on that one - but I'd still say it's a 'similar' car just with a hatch.
Maybe it's just a difference of priority, but to me they seem like completely different concepts. The GT86 is more a Z4 coupe competitor than a 1-series one (or would be if they still made a coupe Z4) despite the lack of seats in the Z4. Do you consider a 911C2 to be a direct competitor for the M135i too? It also has quite similar numbers. A 370Z is a hatchback too isn't it and that's already been put up against the GT86/BRZ coupe in a few tests.
A 911 might be too much for the price bracket and the Cayman, 370Z are only 2 seats although closer in price
s m said:
elementad said:
s m said:
kambites said:
s m said:
Fair point on that one - but I'd still say it's a 'similar' car just with a hatch.
Maybe it's just a difference of priority, but to me they seem like completely different concepts. The GT86 is more a Z4 coupe competitor than a 1-series one (or would be if they still made a coupe Z4) despite the lack of seats in the Z4. Do you consider a 911C2 to be a direct competitor for the M135i too? It also has quite similar numbers. A 370Z is a hatchback too isn't it and that's already been put up against the GT86/BRZ coupe in a few tests.
A 911 might be too much for the price bracket and the Cayman, 370Z are only 2 seats although closer in price
Maybe that and the Aston DB9 are hatch backs and the manufacturers/DVLA got it wrong
356Speedster said:
Regarding the chassis, it's not just evo who have had missgivings about the setup, the GT86 review by JL & GJ I noted have also said the same things.
Ah, car reviews Conversely, our own Chris Harris and Top Gear's Ollie Marriage loved it. So, it may turn out to be a bit of a marmite car with 'purists' loving it and those perhaps who use gobs of power to mask chassis deficiencies not quite 'getting it'. As I said - I treat journo reviews with a pinch of salt and would take a racer's opinion over a jobbing automotive scribe anytime.As you rightly say, let's just hope they sell enough to keep the evolution going. Personally I think it has the makings of another AE86 in terms of cult following - the tuner market will see to that
elementad said:
s m said:
elementad said:
s m said:
kambites said:
s m said:
Fair point on that one - but I'd still say it's a 'similar' car just with a hatch.
Maybe it's just a difference of priority, but to me they seem like completely different concepts. The GT86 is more a Z4 coupe competitor than a 1-series one (or would be if they still made a coupe Z4) despite the lack of seats in the Z4. Do you consider a 911C2 to be a direct competitor for the M135i too? It also has quite similar numbers. A 370Z is a hatchback too isn't it and that's already been put up against the GT86/BRZ coupe in a few tests.
A 911 might be too much for the price bracket and the Cayman, 370Z are only 2 seats although closer in price
Maybe that and the Aston DB9 are hatch backs and the manufacturers/DVLA got it wrong
Put a Z3M coupe and the new M135i hatch alongside each other with the rear opening up.....doesn't really matter what you call them at the end of the day. Just the M135i has an extra couple of seats if you choose not to have them folded down
s m said:
elementad said:
s m said:
elementad said:
s m said:
kambites said:
s m said:
Fair point on that one - but I'd still say it's a 'similar' car just with a hatch.
Maybe it's just a difference of priority, but to me they seem like completely different concepts. The GT86 is more a Z4 coupe competitor than a 1-series one (or would be if they still made a coupe Z4) despite the lack of seats in the Z4. Do you consider a 911C2 to be a direct competitor for the M135i too? It also has quite similar numbers. A 370Z is a hatchback too isn't it and that's already been put up against the GT86/BRZ coupe in a few tests.
A 911 might be too much for the price bracket and the Cayman, 370Z are only 2 seats although closer in price
Maybe that and the Aston DB9 are hatch backs and the manufacturers/DVLA got it wrong
Put a Z3M coupe and the new M135i hatch alongside each other with the rear opening up.....doesn't really matter what you call them at the end of the day. Just the M135i has an extra couple of seats if you choose not to have them folded down
elementad said:
...but I don't know what the true black and white definition is.
I don't think there is one, and everyone's definitions are different.By my definition (which I couldn't even state categorically myself and certainly bears no resemblance to the origins of the word), the only coupe that BMW currently make is the 6-series. The rest are either two-door saloons or two door hatches.
kambites said:
elementad said:
...but I don't know what the true black and white definition is.
I don't think there is one, and everyone's definitions are different.People can call them what they like I guess
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