RE: Gazoo shows 320hp GT 86

[Moogle]

Toecutter said:

Unfortunately the Aygo, C1 and 107 are all made in the same factory in the Czech Republic, not Japan

And out of genuine curiosity, where are all the other 'Japanese' cars made?

[otolith]

Moogle said:

And out of genuine curiosity, where are all the other 'Japanese' cars made?

Lots of Hondas are made down the road from here. Nissan at Sunderland?

[LuS1fer]

Moogle said:

And out of genuine curiosity, where are all the other 'Japanese' cars made?

Well we know the Micra and Civic are built on Japanese soil in Swindon and Sunderland.

[elephantstone]

want want want...


BUT

With half the wing on the back, way too tall..

[otolith]

LuS1fer said:

Well we know the Micra and Civic are built on Japanese soil in Swindon and Sunderland.

Is that like the deal with Dracula's boxes full of transylvanian soil?

[LuS1fer]

otolith said:

LuS1fer said:

Well we know the Micra and Civic are built on Japanese soil in Swindon and Sunderland.

Is that like the deal with Dracula's boxes full of transylvanian soil?

I suspect that in these days of cuts they double as Japanese embassies or something....

[Moogle]

Oh, interesting

I'll stand by my point

[Bladedancer]

kambites said:

The engine isn't the only modification, and even if it was you'd never do the whole thing for 2k.

I'd be astounded if a GT86 with 300+ bhp ever hits the market at under 35k. And why should it? On paper this thing would be up against the Evora S, Cayman R and basic spec 911C2. I know people will pay a lot for the Porsche badge, but 20k+? The only competition that would get close at 30k is the 370Z, but that has a significantly lower power to weight ratio, isn't as driver focussed, and doesn't have rear seats.

Besides, I think a high pressure turbo would ruin the car.

Edited by kambites on Friday 18th May 09:25

It should exatly because it has to go against 370Z, which is 30k basic.
There are enough snobs to pay anything for the badge. They'll just justify it by sayin "not everyone should own sunch-and-such" and treat overpayment as a privileage.

[elementad]

Bladedancer said:

kambites said:

The engine isn't the only modification, and even if it was you'd never do the whole thing for 2k.

I'd be astounded if a GT86 with 300+ bhp ever hits the market at under 35k. And why should it? On paper this thing would be up against the Evora S, Cayman R and basic spec 911C2. I know people will pay a lot for the Porsche badge, but 20k+? The only competition that would get close at 30k is the 370Z, but that has a significantly lower power to weight ratio, isn't as driver focussed, and doesn't have rear seats.

Besides, I think a high pressure turbo would ruin the car.

Edited by kambites on Friday 18th May 09:25

It should exatly because it has to go against 370Z, which is 30k basic.
There are enough snobs to pay anything for the badge. They'll just justify it by sayin "not everyone should own sunch-and-such" and treat overpayment as a privileage.

Exactly, and the fact that the 370z power to weight of 220bhp per tonne is done naturally aspirated as opposed to clip on forced induction which would provide all the purist drivers out there with.... Turbo lag. Nice.
The main contributor to the 370z increased weight from the GT86 is the heavy big v6 engine, not lard in the cabin (theres no room fir anything there) or iron girders holding it together. It's made up partly of aluminium panels.

Why would this have to be above £35k?

This is similar to what they should've done. The existing machine is a watered down mx5 with a tin top.

[s m]

Bladedancer said:

kambites said:

The engine isn't the only modification, and even if it was you'd never do the whole thing for 2k.

I'd be astounded if a GT86 with 300+ bhp ever hits the market at under 35k. And why should it? On paper this thing would be up against the Evora S, Cayman R and basic spec 911C2. I know people will pay a lot for the Porsche badge, but 20k+? The only competition that would get close at 30k is the 370Z, but that has a significantly lower power to weight ratio, isn't as driver focussed, and doesn't have rear seats.

Besides, I think a high pressure turbo would ruin the car.

Edited by kambites on Friday 18th May 09:25

It should exatly because it has to go against 370Z, which is 30k basic.

Plus the forthcoming M135i at around 30k

[kambites]

But again, if that's your definition of "value" then that makes most of the sports coupes on the market look ridiculous. Why on earth would you pay 70k (or whatever they are) for a 991C2 or a 50k Cayman R or Evora S when you can buy a 370Z or a 1-series hatchback for half that?

Personally I wouldn't buy this, simply because I'd prefer the N/A version, but to me the N/A version looks an absolute bargain compared to other new cars that would be on the same short-list for me.

Edited by kambites on Friday 18th May 14:15

[elementad]

kambites said:

But again, if that's your definition of "value" then that makes most of the sports coupes on the market look ridiculous. Why on earth would you pay 70k (or whatever they are) for a 991C2 or a 50k Cayman R or Evora S when you can buy a 370Z or a 1-series hatchback for half that?

The only thing that makes the cayman s the price that it is as opposed to sub £35k is the margins Porsche work to.

Same with the toyobaru. They both apparently want a high profit margin on this car.

[kambites]

elementad said:

The only thing that makes the cayman s the price that it is as opposed to sub £35k is the margins Porsche work to.

Same with the toyobaru. They both apparently want a high profit margin on this car.

The thing that makes the price what it is, is that that's what the manufacturers think the market will bear. What a car costs to produce has no bearing on its value, just on its commercial success.

[elementad]

kambites said:

elementad said:

The only thing that makes the cayman s the price that it is as opposed to sub £35k is the margins Porsche work to.

Same with the toyobaru. They both apparently want a high profit margin on this car.

The thing that makes the price what it is, is that that's what the manufacturers think the market will bear. What a car costs to produce has no bearing on its value, just on its commercial success.

Your partly right. The price it costs to manufacture are the FIRST principles in working out the margin. I know this because I'm a product design/development manager. The part you say about what the manufacturer thinks the market will bear is also important, but THEN you also have the consideration that if you price it too cheap the public may conceive it as cheap. It happens with handbags, it happens with football boots. Price your Adidas predators at £25 and they're all of a sudden not perceived as special as the ones at £99.99.

Porsche have always priced their cars high and if they changed that now it would damage the brand image and the nice margins that they work to.
I'll admit it's a winning formula for them do they should stick to it.

It does make them look reduculous in the value stakes though.

[rb5er]

Finally got that puny n/a dealt with. This is a proper car i would definately look to buy 3 years or so old.

[otolith]

elementad said:

The only thing that makes the cayman s the price that it is as opposed to sub £35k is the margins Porsche work to.

Same with the toyobaru. They both apparently want a high profit margin on this car.

All relative - given that it is reputed that it costs Porsche no more to build a 911 than a Cayman, it would appear that the margin on the Cayman is tiny by Porsche standards.

I wonder how much more a Megane 265 retailing at 25k costs Renault to build than the 1.6 of the same body style retaining at 17k? Next to nothing would be my guess.

elementad said:

The main contributor to the 370z increased weight from the GT86 is the heavy big v6 engine, not lard in the cabin (theres no room fir anything there) or iron girders holding it together. It's made up partly of aluminium panels.

The 370Z is also a little bigger in every dimension, particularly width. You get the vicious circle of added weight and power, in that you need more robust transmission, bigger brakes, bigger wheels and tyres, etc.

[StormLoaded]

HKS supercharger kit looks good if turbo lag isnt your thing..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=q4u_r7_6PjQ

Apparently this one made 394bhp@wheels (but its running a fully rebuilt/upgraded engine in conjunction with its supercharger - no doubt pretty pricey.. and then some!)
The stock engine with a HKS supercharger from reports made 250bhp@wheels.

Edited by StormLoaded on Friday 18th May 16:10

[elementad]

otolith said:

elementad said:

The only thing that makes the cayman s the price that it is as opposed to sub £35k is the margins Porsche work to.

Same with the toyobaru. They both apparently want a high profit margin on this car.

All relative - given that it is reputed that it costs Porsche no more to build a 911 than a Cayman, it would appear that the margin on the Cayman is tiny by Porsche standards.

I wonder how much more a Megane 265 retailing at 25k costs Renault to build than the 1.6 of the same body style retaining at 17k? Next to nothing would be my guess.

elementad said:

The main contributor to the 370z increased weight from the GT86 is the heavy big v6 engine, not lard in the cabin (theres no room fir anything there) or iron girders holding it together. It's made up partly of aluminium panels.

The 370Z is also a little bigger in every dimension, particularly width. You get the vicious circle of added weight and power, in that you need more robust transmission, bigger brakes, bigger wheels and tyres, etc.

The 911, Cayman thing further emphasises what I was saying above referencing the Adidas predators perceived value.
Make no mistake, Porsche make a pretty penny on caymans and as you point out an even prettier penny on 911s.

Agree about the Renault, BUT for some reason (and I honestly can't put my finger on what it is - and Ive never owned a Renault) I don't feel as the 265 is as overpriced as Porsche products. It seems somehow more realistic pricing even if a tad expensive.

[superman84]

Stig said:

Ah, car reviews Conversely, our own Chris Harris and Top Gear's Ollie Marriage loved it. So, it may turn out to be a bit of a marmite car with 'purists' loving it and those perhaps who use gobs of power to mask chassis deficiencies not quite 'getting it'. As I said - I treat journo reviews with a pinch of salt and would take a racer's opinion over a jobbing automotive scribe anytime.

As you rightly say, let's just hope they sell enough to keep the evolution going. Personally I think it has the makings of another AE86 in terms of cult following - the tuner market will see to that

I really doubt it'll have a cult following. If it was as good as they claimed it would be then it might have been in with a shout but given that it's not very good it's going struggle not to be a complete flop. The fact that the new Renaultsport Megane is is better equipped, more practical, much faster but more importantly manages to be a more fun driver's car says it all really. It just goes to show that being light, rwd and having a bespoke chassis doesnt automatically make a car 'better' or more fun despite what the PH 'purists' claim. Also that engine is going to cost a fortune to tune.

Saying that this version looks immense, it's just a shame that the one on sale is so limp.

Edited by superman84 on Friday 18th May 18:02

[IAJO]

superman84 said:

I really doubt it'll have a cult following. If it was as good as they claimed it would be then it might have been in with a shout but given that it's not very good it's going struggle not to be a complete flop. The fact that the new Renaultsport Megane is is better equipped, more practical, much faster but more importantly manages to be a more fun driver's car says it all really. It just goes to show that being light, rwd and having a bespoke chassis doesnt automatically make a car 'better' or more fun despite what the PH 'purists' claim. Also that engine is going to cost a fortune to tune.

Saying that this version looks immense, it's just a shame that the one on sale is so limp.

Edited by superman84 on Friday 18th May 18:02

In ten years time the megane will have more electrical faults than the national grid and the jap tuning scene will mean these are still sought after like celicas mr2s supras skylines 200sx typers. None of these cars are perfect but they can all be made good and.have huge aftermarket support and so will 86 and the brz.