RE: Gazoo shows 320hp GT 86
Discussion
otolith said:
iain1970 said:
otolith said:
Besides which it would have the kind of fuel consumption and CO2 outputs which Toyota doesn't want ruining its corporate average in Europe and Subaru is desperate to get away from.
The modifications aren't even a consideration to the manufacturers on that front. The emissions from the standard car would stand as afar as taxation and BIK goes. Mitsubishi EVOs were the same.otolith said:
If you want something like this, it's going to make a lot more sense to modify the car yourself.
If Toyota or subaru were to sell a version like that as a factory car, it would be a problem. Modified aftermarket, even by your Toyota dealer, it isn't.JamStar said:
Stop the bus... (although I see Blown2CV has echoed the same sentiment)
I thought a month ago that the collective voice of Pistonheads decided that what we all wanted was a small, light, cheap to run, cheapish to buy, fun, drift happy, rwd coupe where out and out straight line performance wasn't that important. That any idiot who wanted straight line speed could buy a turbo hot hatch. That 200bhp was enough. Was 200bhp with fun handling not supposed to have people jumping out of their Porsches for a purer driving experience.
It's funny how quickly we can change our minds :-)
That's all.....
It's Pistonheads... Speed Matters.I thought a month ago that the collective voice of Pistonheads decided that what we all wanted was a small, light, cheap to run, cheapish to buy, fun, drift happy, rwd coupe where out and out straight line performance wasn't that important. That any idiot who wanted straight line speed could buy a turbo hot hatch. That 200bhp was enough. Was 200bhp with fun handling not supposed to have people jumping out of their Porsches for a purer driving experience.
It's funny how quickly we can change our minds :-)
That's all.....
As does b
hing about everything. Luckily, no price has been forthcoming in the article, so at least we're spared the usual "you could buy a used 911 for that" crap.StormLoaded said:
chuntington101 said:
Would like to see some engine bay shot to see exactly how they are running this supercharger and turbo arangement. Could potencial be an upgrade for scvooby owners?.....
Chris.
Chris.
Image Source : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63...
plenty more pics in that thread.
JamStar said:
Stop the bus... (although I see Blown2CV has echoed the same sentiment)
I thought a month ago that the collective voice of Pistonheads decided that what we all wanted was a small, light, cheap to run, cheapish to buy, fun, drift happy, rwd coupe where out and out straight line performance wasn't that important. That any idiot who wanted straight line speed could buy a turbo hot hatch. That 200bhp was enough. Was 200bhp with fun handling not supposed to have people jumping out of their Porsches for a purer driving experience.
It's funny how quickly we can change our minds :-)
That's all.....
Have the same people who said 200bhp was enough said that now they have to have 320? If not you don't really have a point.I thought a month ago that the collective voice of Pistonheads decided that what we all wanted was a small, light, cheap to run, cheapish to buy, fun, drift happy, rwd coupe where out and out straight line performance wasn't that important. That any idiot who wanted straight line speed could buy a turbo hot hatch. That 200bhp was enough. Was 200bhp with fun handling not supposed to have people jumping out of their Porsches for a purer driving experience.
It's funny how quickly we can change our minds :-)
That's all.....
Blown2CV said:
i don't understand all the "this is what it should have been in the first place" comments. Wasn't the car originally designed to be fun and great handing rather than in need of a zillion BHP and fking 10 second 'ring lap times. Am I the only one who thinks it was quite a nice idea, just a nice light NA engine, handling focused and cheap? I mean, £25k for the NA model is perfect. This thing is gonna be like £40k. Still cheap but it seems like an obsession that every car has to be so power-focused, like it is the only measure of enjoyment. Do people whinge about the MX5 in the same way? Has to be twin turbo or GTFO? No, they wk on about it being the perfect PH car just the way it is!
I've always been on of those who has said right from the start it doesn't have enough power. While I really admire what Toyobaru are trying to do with this and agree that in theory it is a genuine PH car, in the real world, the engine of this car just doesn't cut it. king 10 second 'ring lap times. Am I the only one who thinks it was quite a nice idea, just a nice light NA engine, handling focused and cheap? I mean, £25k for the NA model is perfect. This thing is gonna be like £40k. Still cheap but it seems like an obsession that every car has to be so power-focused, like it is the only measure of enjoyment. Do people whinge about the MX5 in the same way? Has to be twin turbo or GTFO? No, they wk on about it being the perfect PH car just the way it is! I am not a straighline junky by any means but the on-paper stats were less than satisfactory for a car of this price and power to weight to be honest. While I haven't driven one, all the reviews seem to be unanimous in the opinion that the engine just doesn't fizz. I have driven other 200bhp cars which geniunely felt quick (Honda Type R's) so I am surprised by this, those 200 horses don't quite seem to be delivering in the GT86.
It doesn't need to be a fire breathing 400bhp monster and I even feel this package is particulat tuner package is way overcomplicating things ( why a turbo AND supercharger?) but if it had a nice willing 250bhp engine maybe like the unit in an S2000 but with better low down torque, then for me that would have been perfect. As it is I find the performance of this "sportscar" pretty lackluster.
And yes MX-5's ARE too slow too but second had ones are a cheap way into rwd open top fun so they can be excused somewhat.
Edited by Guvernator on Thursday 17th May 14:28
Seems promising, but the one concern that I have is that if this were launched as an official product there is every chance that it will add 100kg of cow hide and luxury techno tat and cost Boxster money for Skoda depreciation...
Surely this is best viewed as a conceptual demonstration and the best way forward remains for them to offer the bare bones car from the land of the rising sun and leave the upgrades to the aftermarket?
Surely this is best viewed as a conceptual demonstration and the best way forward remains for them to offer the bare bones car from the land of the rising sun and leave the upgrades to the aftermarket?
Guvernator said:
GravelBen said:
Froomee said:
300+ bhp and 1280kg is impressive.
About the same as a classic Impreza STi in fact 
Looks aside it seems that all of the added safety features,etc added has offset any development that there has been in efficiency in recent times. With fewer restrictions on design i'm guessing a 100mpg supermini and a 40-50 mpg/250-300 bhp sports car would be fairly easy to produce.
Either way nice car and probably what the GT86 should have been or would have been if restrictions and legislation wasn't so tight.
Captain Muppet said:
JonathanLegard said:
To all the people I berated for missing the point re the GT86's modest power output.
I've driven it. You were right.
More on this please.I've driven it. You were right.
TOYOTA GT86 - After the hype, the disappointment.
The problem with the big build up is that it requires a big payoff. After a couple of hundred kilometres on some of Europe's best roads, I'm certain the Toyota GT86 fails to merit the fawning adulation that has been poured upon it. Its key problem can be summed up fairly simply.
It needs more torque.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a fully paid up member of the lighter and simpler is better brigade and have been telling whoever will listen that BMW need to build a basic, lightweight, affordable car. Toyota beat them to it. It's just that they haven't made an entirely convincing fist of it. There are elements of the GT86 that are shot through with greatness, and there is the kernel of a great car in there somewhere. This isn't it though.
The 2.0-litre flat four engine offers neither the power, torque, throttle response nor soundtrack to satisfy. It makes some reasonable numbers in terms of specific output but, as we found out on a hilly, twisty route, it lacks the mumbo to dispatch a stubborn Vectra diesel. Pay £25,000 for a sports coupe and you come to expect a little more brawn.
What else is on the to do list? The ESP system offers three modes; fully on, Sport and off. The interventions in Sport are imperceptible to those in normal mode. Work required right there. The Torsen differential fails to prevent torque bleeding away to an unweighted inside rear wheel in tight hairpins. The diaphragm that feeds an ululating chirp into the cabin at 5,000rpm isn't at all convincing. It sounds more like something has come loose in the glovebox. The manual gearchange isn't bad, but certainly a long way shy of the snickety action of a Honda S2000.
Then we get to the suspension setup. The ride is extremely supple, helped by the relatively generous 45-series sidewalls of the Prius tyres the GT86 runs on. It initially feels fairly resistant to roll, but start driving it a bit harder and you'll find that the front spring rates are inadequate, with an inordinate amount of dive on heavy braking and an unwillingness to take a positive set into a corner when leaned on. The net effect of this is that the car rarely feels all of a piece through a corner. Your strategies for managing the front of the car into the corner should result in a reward on the exit, but after you've set the car up to glide effortlessly into oversteer, you run into that problem of torque deficit again. Without the muscle to drag itself through a bend, the GT86 lapses back into grip, again and again. I've yet to try the car in wet conditions, but in the dry you'll likely be able to oversteer a Mégane 265 just as effectively and makes you question the requirement for rear-wheel drive if there's not the potential – in most instances – to take advantage of its benefits.
Chief Engineer Tetsuya Tada explained that the GT86 was designed from the outset around three key criteria, namely a low centre of gravity, rear wheel drive and natural aspiration. While I applaud the technical rectitude of the vehicle, it's hard not to come away from it with the firm belief that it would be a massively superior car if a turbocharger was adding another 50bhp or so.
In fact, the more I considered the GT86, the further I came to the conclusion that Toyota is selling the wrong car. It needs to sell a stripped back, cheaper version of this model that weighs in at under £20,000. It also needs to sell a turbocharged model with a few more luxuries for £27,000 or so.
So what's good? The pedal box is a thing of brilliance with perfect weighting and spacing. The electrically assisted steering is also worthy of singling out for praise, and the cabin isn't at all badly finished. I loved the styling, with its glasshouse reminiscent of the classic GT2000, and the 86mm diameter exhaust pipes and 86 badging that contains a pair of horizontally opposed pistons and a slick four-wheel drift motif are very neat pieces of design.
Perhaps the most encouraging aspect of the GT86's development is the fact that it represents a start. Tada acknowledges that it's not the end of this particular story by a long chalk and he refers to the car as an open-source project for tuners. Forced induction, a little suspension work and a more aggressive-sounding induction and exhaust would go a long way to making the GT86 what it always should have been.
So, yes, I'm disappointed but there's more than a glimmer of hope for this one yet.
N.B. For an accurate reflection of my emotions after driving the GT86, watch John Barker and Nick Trott's reaction after driving its sister car, the Subaru BRZ. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNUL9eQO5Q0 Forward the video to 4m in. Yes, the conditions are different and yes, it's an auto but the sheer look of befuddlement on Barker's face at how such promising ingredients can create such an underwhelming result is just gold.
Guvernator said:
( why a turbo AND supercharger?)
Compound charging is great. The positive displacement charger on the engine make the engine feel like a large displacement one. At say 0.5 bar of boost, it will feel like driving a 3l car of the line, accelerate without downshifting etc. Big engine feel, but volumetric efficiency with positive displacement superchargers and non super-high-rev VTEC etc. cylinder headed engines drops off at high rpm. They will not feel sporty as torque does not increase past mid range rpms.Edited by Guvernator on Thursday 17th May 14:28
If you now bolt on a turbo to feed the charger, this loss of torque/power past mid rpms goes away. It just climbs and climbs.
Next, due to the large amount of exhaust gas from low rpms you can spool that turbo really fast. there is virtually no lag. As the turbo does not have to generate all the boost, it also can be configured in a way that boost does not surge past mid rpms, but rather climbs progressively with rpm. This way drivability is very good. You are not surprised mid corner by the engine hitting boost and your power climbing by 100hp within 500 rpm.
It is not that complicated. Alternative to get you the same feeling is mount a 3l engine with just a low boos turbocharger.
Essentially the charger takes away the gutlessness of high peer turbo engines at low rpm. Drive an EVO, I means below some 2500 rpm or so it feels like they put a 900cc engine in that car.
Marko
JonathanLegard said:
Captain Muppet said:
JonathanLegard said:
To all the people I berated for missing the point re the GT86's modest power output.
I've driven it. You were right.
More on this please.I've driven it. You were right.
TOYOTA GT86 - After the hype, the disappointment.
[/road test]
Blown2CV said:
i don't understand all the "this is what it should have been in the first place" comments. Wasn't the car originally designed to be fun and great handing rather than in need of a zillion BHP and fking 10 second 'ring lap times. Am I the only one who thinks it was quite a nice idea, just a nice light NA engine, handling focused and cheap? I mean, £25k for the NA model is perfect. This thing is gonna be like £40k. Still cheap but it seems like an obsession that every car has to be so power-focused, like it is the only measure of enjoyment. Do people whinge about the MX5 in the same way? Has to be twin turbo or GTFO? No, they wk on about it being the perfect PH car just the way it is!
Everyone on PH has a GT3 as a shopping car, didn't you know? The Missus has a GT-R.king 10 second 'ring lap times. Am I the only one who thinks it was quite a nice idea, just a nice light NA engine, handling focused and cheap? I mean, £25k for the NA model is perfect. This thing is gonna be like £40k. Still cheap but it seems like an obsession that every car has to be so power-focused, like it is the only measure of enjoyment. Do people whinge about the MX5 in the same way? Has to be twin turbo or GTFO? No, they wk on about it being the perfect PH car just the way it is! They drive a Red Bull one-handed at the weekends. No, don't go there...
Those of us who can scare ourselves sh itless by failing to control an MX-5 or S2K particularly well (if at all) on the limits and have a great time of it shouldn't really be here without permission.
I've not yet driven a Toyobaru AP1 but I look forward to it. Not saying I'd NOT add a Gazoo snail, but I'd not dismiss the boggo car just yet either. I'm sure it's quite fun really and that's all that counts. I know Gareth Salesweasel's Audi TeDiouS is probably as quick in a straight line as my old S2000, but I so CGAF.
Captain Muppet said:
>crestfallen<
same.still, need to test drive one and see if i think the same. Standard suspnsion wouldnt be staying for me anyway, neither the wheels or tyres, so that doesnt bother me, but i come from turbo hot hatches, and tuned diesels, so if there really is sod-all torque it would be a deal breaker
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff