RE: Dany Bahar suspended

[10 Pence Short]

cramorra said:

and if there were still red phone boxes around they could meet there once a week for their club meeting almost anywere in the country.... - or should I say monthly because it may feel a bit lonely in there...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the inference is that there aren't many people out there who appreciate the joy of driving a well sorted car or the principles of how it does it.

There's nothing in my thought that says all the people who appreciate driving have to be old or even long established drivers. All I suggest is that there is room for a performance car manufacturer that purposely concentrates on its product, the ethos behind it and the way it behaves when driven above brand image (one will drive the other).

Take a look at McLaren's ying to Ferrari's yang.

Instead of Bahar's vision of pop stars, glam and competing with Ferrari for aspirational status, Lotus could instead position themselves with modern, well thought out product, rather than endless special editions or cars designed to out-shiney whatever Porsche or Ferrari are doing.

We know there's a market for driver's orientated speciality product, Lotus should have the right product and product mix to be considered the most mainstream of the array of small producers and consolidate the market.

Instead it's sat on it's hands for 16 years or so dreaming up daily excuses to tinker with the Elise and throwing money away on ill conceived projects pretending it can compete on a level playing field from scratch with Porsche.

[sisu]

Well the VAG-Fiat empire is a bit óf a stretch for a Malaysian Proton manufacturer or what is now a locally built Audi/VW group. Valmet in Finland was more their size and style. They made the convertible versions of other car makers, the previous Boxter and now the Fisker Karma. Building the car and letting someone else slap their sticker on it, what Lotus were planning to do with the fancy Infiniti coupe.
The fact that Mazda have sided with Alfa Romeo rather than Lotus for the MX5 is more telling of the loss of faith outsiders feel about Lotus. It wouldn't have taken a genius to sell to Mazda the Lotus mojo in an MX5.

[rubystone]

Justices said:

rubystone said:

I'm off to sell the idea of a 'Herc Merc' to Zetsche....

Cool Herc Merc? Christ, finally someone who knows a bit of the good stuff eh? (while simultaneously revealing themselves to be 30+)

Virtually every time "hip hop" is mentioned on here the word "bling" follows shortly after. Just as all us Brits don't wear bowler hats, not all hip hop all hip hop is about "bling", thank god, and I curse the day this word entered mainstream lingo. Hearing painfully outdated useless hip hop terminology on PH is like your uncool, aged uncle proclaim he too listens to "Snoopy Dog Dog" on the way to work in some vain attempt at wanting to seem "with it". :P

Guilty as charged. But Grandmaster Flash was what got me into it.....so just as Herc was getting into his 'substances' so I was getting into his music via those that were influenced by him...

Anyway, I am off to the post box to mail my CV to Hethel...

[DanS]

Wills2 said:

PiB said:

Wills2 said:

suffolk009 said:

From The Telegraph Online: "Mr Bahar joined Lotus in 2009 from Ferrari. Last month, The Daily Telegraph revealed his contract says he is entitled to 5pc of the enterprise value of Group Lotus if it is sold or 5pc of the value of its shares if the car maker is floated on a stock market anywhere in the world."

That's quite an incentive.

Yes quite an incentive for the new company to find a way of sacking him.

I'm not saying you are wrong but can you explain that out for me?

Sorry I was being facetious.

I.e if Bahar is in line for a payment of 5% of the purchase price of Lotus as it has been sold then they might not want to pay him, but I have no idea of the details or if the sale triggers the reported terms of his contract.

I think DRB could easily claim a zero value for lotus currently.

[DanS]

Lotus as a brand clearly has strong resonance for many people here, good and bad. The problem lotus has is that it doesn't need passion, loyalty, or even celebrity endorsement, it needs customers. But it essentially doesn't have any. There is limited international distribution, the traditional UK market is poor, and most importantly they dont have volume products, the elise is very niche, the evora is not good enough.

frankly, everyone who wanted an Elise based weekend car has one, most of them are faster and prettier then the current crop.

Lotus is a brand, and it's a very successful engineering consultancy, it is not a business making cars and it won't be any time soon. Bahar, for all this looked like a vanity project, recognised that. He was trying to transform the business in the background while maintaining some sort of BAU and media presence, however I suspect Ego got in the way of the task in hand.

It's going to take very deep pockets to save it now, I suspect administrators will sell the consultancy and wind up the car maker. It's what happens when you put everything on red and lose.

[andrew]

A Scotsman said:

There surely has now to be some concern that manufacturing will be moved out of the UK.

they moved to norfolk decades ago

[mrclav]

cramorra said:

10 Pence Short said:

The people who should be buying Lotus cars are purists who enjoy the thrill of driving for driving's sake. They should be wealthy enough to afford a toy but not obsessed by trying to appear wealthy to others. Lotus buyers should be able to understand engineering concepts and appreciate the reasoning behind them.

and if there were still red phone boxes around they could meet there once a week for their club meeting almost anywere in the country.... - or should I say monthly because it may feel a bit lonely in there...

Exactly. The people who should be buying Lotus cars already have - people seem to forget that a businesses prime objective is to make money. Whether that comes from a sheik, a footballer, or a purist is irrelevant is long as it keeps coming thus allowing product to be developed. This mentality smacks of discrimination to me. Why should some-one be expected to understand engineering concepts and have to appreciate the reasoning behind them? Is it not enough to simply enjoy a Lotus for what it is?

10 Pence Short said:

Lotus is for drivers.

As opposed to what? Lotus can't be for Jet pilots? Ship captains? Car mechanics? Quantum physicists? That line is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard - by default if you buy a car and drive it then you're a driver!

[M@1975]

A shame that it's going this way, Lotus have a good lineup of cars at the moment. the whole idea of making lotus' that compete with Porsche / Ferrari was wrong though in my book, as previously mentioned they had an opportunity to pitch themselves as a bit more of the hardcore, driver focussed company. A heavy overly pipmed lotus is not really what they have been associated with or what they should be chasing to me. It would still be nice if they had built cars I could actually get in easily, climbing out of my mate's Exige on Sunday was not a dignified experience!

[Numeric]

[quote=DanS]Lotus as a brand clearly has strong resonance for many people here, good and bad. The problem lotus has is that it doesn't need passion, loyalty, or even celebrity endorsement, it needs customers. But it essentially doesn't have any. There is limited international distribution, the traditional UK market is poor, and most importantly they dont have volume products, the elise is very niche, the evora is not good enough.

I really do heartily agree with the above. I do so appreciate how people feel about car brands, but, and here I shall be a little harsh - if you haven't the funds to purchase the products then your view HAS to be seen by the manufacturer as being in the short term immaterial. Long term oddly you have a part to play in supporting your brand as the passion you show does filter, look at the Tifosi and how they help boost the Ferrari brand image, but for Lotus they don't need passion and ideology - they need customers!

I saw this so clearly when MG-Rover was on the ropes, there were so many people banging on about the great brands and the state of the UK industry etc. but they wouldn't buy the cars, probably with some justification. So I hope Lotus does carry on and I pray that any employees who become casualties of changes are quickly back on their feet, but the only way forward is to build cars that customers want, even if that means that those who talk fondly of the 1967 Lotus Elan but haven't the money to buy a bicycle are no longer catered for by the brand.

[Hitch78]

M@1975 said:

A shame that it's going this way, Lotus have a good lineup of cars at the moment. the whole idea of making lotus' that compete with Porsche / Ferrari was wrong though in my book, as previously mentioned they had an opportunity to pitch themselves as a bit more of the hardcore, driver focussed company. A heavy overly pipmed lotus is not really what they have been associated with or what they should be chasing to me. It would still be nice if they had built cars I could actually get in easily, climbing out of my mate's Exige on Sunday was not a dignified experience!

How many hardcore drivers are there out there though? And how many of them buy brand new hardcore cars every two or three years? There's just no real volume market for that product.

Unfortunately, at GBP29k to GBP40k they price even the age-old Elise within reach of a Porsche which is a no-brainer for anyone but the most committed fan. The R+D and tooling of the Elise must have been paid by now so they should strip them down to CS spec and sell them at 20k a pop - they'd shift a few hundred a year for the next ten years which would give cashflow at least.

As for new models, I don't know - is there room for another Morgan type manufacturer making a differentiated offering to Porsche and even BMW, Merc, Alfa and Audi's more sporting models? Do people really buy wacky cars anymore?

I said it earlier. Lotus is fked.

[otolith]

mrclav said:

10 Pence Short said:

Lotus is for drivers.

As opposed to what?

I'll take a punt at "as opposed to people who buy a car because they've been told it's an important part of their luxury lifestyle".

I think the most depressing thing about the whole debacle is the extent to which people are resigned to the idea that appealing to the lowest common denominator and selling to the ignorant are the only possible way to run a succesful car company.

[MiseryStreak]

Steve12NG said:

I'll try to answer your post as it appears.

1. Of course Ferrari is a yardstick for sports cars. At least it is where I come from.

2. When I was a teenager in the late 80's early 90's, Lotus were making some pretty special cars. I remember "wagging" several days from high school where my mates and I would go to the local exotic car dealers and check the latest cars out. Even though I was a Ferrari nut by then I still overall preferred the Esprit to the current 328.
I also vividly remember the first NSX I saw on one of those days off school. It had the best interior of any car I had seen and seemed light years ahead of the Ferrari 328, and the Lotus Esprit Turbo.
My 16 year old self would have still bought the Lotus, though, just because it was the coolest of the lot.

3. The poster on the bedroom wall thing I would have thought required no explanation. But; when I was 12-16, I was dreaming of Testarossas, Countachs, and Esprit Turbos. Naturally as I got older I no longer had posters on the wall (well of cars anyway) but I also no longer wanted to buy a Lotus, because their poster car now had about as much power as my mum's Corolla.
I don't care if it's a great car, I wouldn't have a poster of an Elise or an Elan on my wall if I was a 15 year old lad...
That may have been great for the purists because they understood the cars were light, but I couldn't have cared less.

Having said that I have no issue with the Élan or Elise, just that they should have continued with an updated Esprit "poster car".

4. Attempting to lamely link a musician to a car is pathetic and desperate, at best.

The only exception to "4" is Nick Mason because he has a genuine link to a genuine premium brand car, and is a genuine music legend, unlike Swooz Boast or whatever which is clearly a marketing ploy only, and has nothing to do with the actual car.

I don't like your words. An Elan was my dream car and now I own one. Power might be all that's important to you (but then why not buy a £5K souped up Audi rather than a 355 with a paltry 380bhp?) but it's not for many others, particularly Lotus owners.

Your comments about the Elise being a glorified MX-5 are so ironic that they made me physically guffaw. You are a strange kind of car nut, did your interest in performance cars only extend to looking at them with your friends?

I also don't understand where you're coming from, everyone else is criticising Lotus' new direction and you seem to take offence with what they have been doing for the past 14 years, that is going back to their roots, and producing small lightweight sports cars that put driving pleasure before anything else. If you like the new direction of Supercar power and performance, why not put your name down for the new Exige S? It costs more than a second hand 355 and would show it a clean pair of heels in any kind of 15 year old schoolboy performance test. If that (as you have made clear) is all you care about.

I think you may be the reason why people generally think Ferrari owners are knobs. It's all about what others think of you rather than the drive.

Edited by MiseryStreak on Monday 28th May 11:12

[Tuna]

otolith said:

I think the most depressing thing about the whole debacle is the extent to which people are resigned to the idea that appealing to the lowest common denominator and selling to the ignorant are the only possible way to run a succesful car company.

Not at all.

There's a lot of talk about 'drivers', but this imaginary group of people just don't buy Lotus cars. Perhaps because young drivers can buy a jazzed up hot hatch to carry their mates around in for half the price of a Lotus. Perhaps because the older drivers have a wife and kids and mortgage. Perhaps because all but the most hardcore driver balances his budget and needs and decides that a fast saloon will be 90% as satisfying as a 'drivers' Lotus, and 150% more practical.

On the other hand, the 'lowest common denominator' and 'ignorant' people you're referring to are those that buy Porsches in huge numbers. Last year, in a single 12 months the group you're insulting bought more Porsches than Lotus have sold Elises over its entire lifespan. And not one of those Porsches was cheaper than an Elise. This is the same group that has achieved sufficient financial independence to be able to buy a car without worrying about the wife, the kids or the mortgage. And when they do, they buy an Aston, a Porsche, a Ferrari, a Lamborghini...

I'm not resigned at all. I recognise that people who self identify as 'drivers' tend to be people who can't afford the car they aspire to. Being a 'driver' is usually a justification for driving round a ratty old classic, or owning a car that is just that little bit inconvenient for daily use. The other group are successful enough to buy a car because they want to enjoy it. They don't justify their purchase by saying "I'm a driver", they just buy the thing. And there are a lot of them. And they keep some very niche brands in rude health.

Lotus can be a 'drivers' brand - but they first and foremost have to be a brand that can be taken seriously alongside the cars they compete with. That can either be Porsche, Ferrari et. al., or it can be noisy little shopping carts bought by single males in their early twenties. The thing I'm resigned to is that the Elise is far closer to the latter camp than the former. It's a lovely car, but one you have to justify and excuse, and love and be passionate about - and there just aren't enough people in the world who are 'drivers' to keep Lotus going on the slim margins the Elise produces.

Edited by Tuna on Monday 28th May 11:37

[robinessex]

1. I haven't a clue what's going on
2. Had a Lotus Europa once
3. LOTUS
4. Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious
5. That's the cars and the Company

[Hitch78]

robinessex said:

1. I haven't a clue what's going on
2. Had a Lotus Europa once
3. LOTUS
4. Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious
5. That's the cars and the Company

6. Tomato
7. Quantum physics
8. Super Ted
9. Boobies
10.+ Other random numbered comments

[CraigyMc]

mrclav said:

10 Pence Short said:

Lotus is for drivers.

As opposed to what? Lotus can't be for Jet pilots? Ship captains? Car mechanics? Quantum physicists? That line is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard - by default if you buy a car and drive it then you're a driver!

Berating someone for writing the "stupidest thing you've ever heard" is perhaps a poor move. It makes you sound obtuse, at best.

All 10PS is trying to say, as I read it, is that cars from Lotus are bought by people primarily for the driving experience, rather than for another reason (eg. posing)

C

[otolith]

Tuna said:

I'm not resigned at all. I recognise that people who self identify as 'drivers' tend to be people who can't afford the car they aspire to. Being a 'driver' is usually a justification for driving round a ratty old classic, or owning a car that is just that little bit inconvenient for daily use. The other group are successful enough to buy a car because they want to enjoy it.

Well that's clearly bks, given that all of the people driving round in used Elises could have had a used Porsche for the same money.

If you want a Porsche, why don't you just buy one?

[crocodile tears]

The Crack Fox said:

Hitch78 said:

robinessex said:

1. I haven't a clue what's going on
2. Had a Lotus Europa once
3. LOTUS
4. Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious
5. That's the cars and the Company

6. Tomato
7. Quantum physics
8. Super Ted
9. Boobies
10.+ Other random numbered comments

11. Dany Bahr's builder is suing him over unpaid bills for the construction of a golden statue of himself on the roof of Hethel that rotates to follow the sun.
12. In the Bahar household, Wednesday is named 'Bahar-day'.
13. Dany Bahar was once the President of Fiat, Ferrari and FYR Macedonia.
14. I bet the employees are sick to death of the constant unwanted press attention and speculation.
14. I'd buy an Evora right now if I had the money.
15. I'm not good with numbers. Or facts.

16. A dog has had its day.
17. Fish fingers and duracell batteries.
18. I met a golden dragon in space called Fred.
19. Dreams can come true.
20. I can count to potato.

[Ex Boy Racer]

crocodile tears said:

The Crack Fox said:

Hitch78 said:

robinessex said:

1. I haven't a clue what's going on
2. Had a Lotus Europa once
3. LOTUS
4. Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious
5. That's the cars and the Company

6. Tomato
7. Quantum physics
8. Super Ted
9. Boobies
10.+ Other random numbered comments

11. Dany Bahr's builder is suing him over unpaid bills for the construction of a golden statue of himself on the roof of Hethel that rotates to follow the sun.
12. In the Bahar household, Wednesday is named 'Bahar-day'.
13. Dany Bahar was once the President of Fiat, Ferrari and FYR Macedonia.
14. I bet the employees are sick to death of the constant unwanted press attention and speculation.
14. I'd buy an Evora right now if I had the money.
15. I'm not good with numbers. Or facts.

16. A dog has had its day.
17. Fish fingers and duracell batteries.
18. I met a golden dragon in space called Fred.
19. Dreams can come true.
20. I can count to potato.

21. you can call cornflakes roast beef but you still won't have them for sunday lunch
22. Marketing bullst does not rule the world
23. the Lotus employee who will eventually do best out of all this is Mr D.B.
24. How dumb must Malaysian businessmen be?
25. It's not really funny, is it?

[Frimley111R]

V8 FOU said:

Chapman must be spinning in his grave.

Jesus H Christ