RE: Dany Bahar suspended
Discussion
RYH64E said:
In the case of Lotus, the over 50 bloke might want a car he can get in and out of without putting his back out...
He probably wants that type of woman as well but will be thinking about the ones that would put his back out. 
I love Lotus, I don't fit in them or have a desire to own one but love seeing them on the road. I understand why they set the plan in motion to go big or go home and appreciate how they went about doing it but it was a big ask in a healthy market let alone where we find ourselves at present.
There's no point in being anything other than niche in the UK and EU and partly because there isn't much money around but if they can shift more road focussed cars in Asia and having Swizz Bets etc achieves that then it has my full backing.
I am genuinely gutted at the situation developing at Lotus. I was one of the lucky 20 to get the invite to Hethel through the Lotus Diaries Competition in EVO last year. From what I saw during the factory tours and chatting with some of the employees it looked as Lotus had done the hard work of keeping a float and managing to invest for the future. When I was there in September last year they were in the process of opening up additional manufacturing lines for increased production, getting primed for additional Evora sales and the new line-up.
There was a genuine buzz about the place and the big hitters that Bahar had drafted in really did have the knowledge and pedigree to succeed (e.g. Ferrari 458 Chief Designer, AMG Engine supremo... etc, etc). Sadly I think the timing of the sale and the subsiquent halt of new product development has some what scuppered their plans.
As someone mentioned earlier, I think Lotus now need to be part of a bigger company. My vote would go to Jaguar Land Rover! They have the cash, growth, global coverage... etc. Whilst they are busy developing the new F-Type and XKR's to go head to head with Aston and Porsche, they could bring in Lotus as a sub-brand focused on the original Chapman ethos of light-weight, driver focused, simplistic sports cars.
Whilst I know JLR is now a part of TATA motor, JLR is still very much a British brand, they are investing in their growth plans... Why add another classically British brand to the family!
There was a genuine buzz about the place and the big hitters that Bahar had drafted in really did have the knowledge and pedigree to succeed (e.g. Ferrari 458 Chief Designer, AMG Engine supremo... etc, etc). Sadly I think the timing of the sale and the subsiquent halt of new product development has some what scuppered their plans.
As someone mentioned earlier, I think Lotus now need to be part of a bigger company. My vote would go to Jaguar Land Rover! They have the cash, growth, global coverage... etc. Whilst they are busy developing the new F-Type and XKR's to go head to head with Aston and Porsche, they could bring in Lotus as a sub-brand focused on the original Chapman ethos of light-weight, driver focused, simplistic sports cars.
Whilst I know JLR is now a part of TATA motor, JLR is still very much a British brand, they are investing in their growth plans... Why add another classically British brand to the family!
Edited by R5PNY on Monday 28th May 22:17
DanS said:
Wills2 said:
PiB said:
Wills2 said:
suffolk009 said:
From The Telegraph Online: "Mr Bahar joined Lotus in 2009 from Ferrari. Last month, The Daily Telegraph revealed his contract says he is entitled to 5pc of the enterprise value of Group Lotus if it is sold or 5pc of the value of its shares if the car maker is floated on a stock market anywhere in the world."
That's quite an incentive.
Yes quite an incentive for the new company to find a way of sacking him. That's quite an incentive.
I.e if Bahar is in line for a payment of 5% of the purchase price of Lotus as it has been sold then they might not want to pay him, but I have no idea of the details or if the sale triggers the reported terms of his contract.
jackal said:
There are only so many Informtaion Technlogy 'aspergo-mongs' out there who spend their lives jacking off over K&N air filters, talking about rollsteer stifness and studying Harris's twitter feed 24/7. Besides, they already all have elises in any case.
As someone mentioned, the S, Exige V6 and Evora are all great cars. But they are playing to an audience of around 9 people. Lotus can't make cars like that anymore and hope to survive. The 1980's and 90's are long gone and the world has changed. You either do an 'Ariel cars' or you do an 'Aston Martin', you can't do something inbetween.
Nail on head.As someone mentioned, the S, Exige V6 and Evora are all great cars. But they are playing to an audience of around 9 people. Lotus can't make cars like that anymore and hope to survive. The 1980's and 90's are long gone and the world has changed. You either do an 'Ariel cars' or you do an 'Aston Martin', you can't do something inbetween.
Ex lotus owner hear, s2 Exige that was a daily driver/track slag combined.
In a town of around 100,000 people I was one of only two Exige owners, there were a couple of other Elise owners & this was in the good days!
There's no way lotus could survive selling so few cars to such a small market & the most important thing is for all this "lotus is for drivers" craic, the "drivers" don't buy new cars & use them every day-not in my experience anyway.
The price of Elise's is a joke & it would never keep the company afloat. They had to do something, I'm not saying what DB did was right, but if they didn't do anything it would have went down the tubes anyway.
RYH64E said:
In the case of Lotus, the over 50 bloke might want a car he can get in and out of without putting his back out...
Speaking as a over 50 bloke who owns 2 Lotus (Loti?) amongst other cars I want a car that is quick, light, handles well, and is not run of the mill. I have a bad back, shoulder, arm, ankle etc, but still drive the Esprit without damage to myself.Pull the birds? (Milf's?) Possibly.... But not a reason for owning a Lotus.
As has been said, a light, stripped out car such as the Elise/Elan, a midway car such as the Evora , then a Halo supercar like the Esprit should be the line up. Niche / small numbers are the key. Produced from a small-ish factory to keep costs under control. No bling, no poncey glass houses for execs, and stop all these long term loan cars to various people.
p.s. I'll do the job of CEO for 1/10th of Bahars renumeration. done a lot of business advice over the years. Nothing anywhere as big as Lotus tho'.
Bet I could do a better job. A CEO who ACTUALLY drives a Lotus? There's a thing....
So apparently his suspension is relating to an expenses claim? Something to do with an unpaid bill of £93,000 carried out on one of his houses.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/bahar-s...
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/bahar-s...
V8 FOU said:
As has been said, a light, stripped out car such as the Elise/Elan, a midway car such as the Evora , then a Halo supercar like the Esprit should be the line up. Niche / small numbers are the key. Produced from a small-ish factory to keep costs under control.
Impossible. People don't realise that this car making business is a very tight equation. The cars lotus make are fairly complex and comprehensive. Despite the persistent downbeat comments about fit and finish they are heavily developed and produced. You can't dev, tool and build that sort of car and sell 217 of them a year, it's just not possible. The car's they are making have to be sold in the thousands to make it pay.Look at someone like Morgan, they employ around 170 people. Ariel, 7 employees and less than 100 units per annum. That's where they need to go to if they want to occupy this virtually invisible niche that folk keep mentioning. At 1200 staff that would be a fair slice of people losing their jobs, and there's no way in the world the cars would be as good or as finished, non-kit car as the current evora or the proposed esprit etc. and they would in all liklehood need to be even more expensive than they currently are to make it pay.
V8 FOU said:
RYH64E said:
In the case of Lotus, the over 50 bloke might want a car he can get in and out of without putting his back out...
Speaking as a over 50 bloke who owns 2 Lotus (Loti?) amongst other cars I want a car that is quick, light, handles well, and is not run of the mill. I have a bad back, shoulder, arm, ankle etc, but still drive the Esprit without damage to myself.Pull the birds? (Milf's?) Possibly.... But not a reason for owning a Lotus.
jackal said:
V8 FOU said:
As has been said, a light, stripped out car such as the Elise/Elan, a midway car such as the Evora , then a Halo supercar like the Esprit should be the line up. Niche / small numbers are the key. Produced from a small-ish factory to keep costs under control.
Impossible. People don't realise that this car making business is a very tight equation. The cars lotus make are fairly complex and comprehensive. Despite the persistent downbeat comments about fit and finish they are heavily developed and produced. You can't dev, tool and build that sort of car and sell 217 of them a year, it's just not possible. The car's they are making have to be sold in the thousands to make it pay.R5PNY said:
As someone mentioned earlier, I think Lotus now need to be part of a bigger company. My vote would go to Jaguar Land Rover!
Possibly, but Toyota would be better still. It would need to be a big enough car company that didn't need instant returns who could view it as an image booster. In the same way the Lotus Cortina came about, a hot "Lotus Corolla" (don't laugh too hard) to compete with the hot Civics, Golfs etc.Toyota have billions of quid, are stable, have massive resources yet are still struggling image wise with the 20-30 year old age bracket. That mad Lexus supercar thing (great car, wrong badge) shows that they will do mad things for the sake of it.
Toyota owned with Toyota money and backing, built and designed at Hethel and stick to making small nifty sports cars with Toyota running gear, the occasional mad supercar and Lotus massaged and badged hatchbacks.
JLR could possibly pull it off, as could Prodrive but ultimately, a huge, cash rich Japanese firm would do it the most good.
Edited by iSore on Tuesday 29th May 11:37
RYH64E said:
...I have other cars for the 360 days in the year when I'm not using the Elise.
Are any of them Lotuses? That's their issue. Guys with enough space, inclination and money for a 5-day-a-year car, but not enough money for a 5-day-a-year Ferrari or GT3 are few and far between.wormburner said:
RYH64E said:
...I have other cars for the 360 days in the year when I'm not using the Elise.
Are any of them Lotuses? That's their issue. Guys with enough space, inclination and money for a 5-day-a-year car, but not enough money for a 5-day-a-year Ferrari or GT3 are few and far between.A few years back a Lotus dealer told me that >60% of all Elise sold new were kept for less that 12 month and that if the guy brought his OH to the showroom the chances of a sale were very low once she had tried to get in/out while maintaining her dignity 
That is where they have failed IMHO.
Far too focused to be sell in enough volume to pay the overheads.
They either need to rethink what sort/size of company they want to be in line with their current income or come up with a car that will generate enough profit to allow them to be the company that the aspire to be.
That is where they have failed IMHO.
Far too focused to be sell in enough volume to pay the overheads.
They either need to rethink what sort/size of company they want to be in line with their current income or come up with a car that will generate enough profit to allow them to be the company that the aspire to be.
Yes.
Some of their track toys are simply wonderful and do exactly what they say on the tin. But road cars are a bit more difficult. Great cars but trapped in a very small niche.
Hence the move to bigger more GT like cars as that is exactly where the market is in regards to both sales numbers and margins.
As a casual aside, if Lotus sell 1,000 cars in a year and have a margin of £10k per unit is that kind of profit of much interest to anyone? Especially the risks of that margin coming under heavy pressure at any point.
It's an extremely tough business to be in.
Mass car producers have moved into this space with all their mod cons and looks and the ability to build very cheap. Not the same product to enthusiasts but pretty much for the general public they are.
Look at all the specialist track day firms eating in to that niche, a niche which Lotus really should have been the total ruler.
So multinationals are building small roadsters in bulk at low prices, myriad specialists building track cars, a whole host of companies selling weekend cars.
It's a b
d of a market place for them to be in and to try and sell to people with such limited common and business sense that they think Lotus should be cheaper than the volume builders.
But I do feel their market lies in a halo road model like the Esprit and then a selection of barely road useable track cars for beginners up to mentally unstable.
Build in small numbers, build well and ensure a strong enough brand to guarantee a healthy margin.
Some of their track toys are simply wonderful and do exactly what they say on the tin. But road cars are a bit more difficult. Great cars but trapped in a very small niche.
Hence the move to bigger more GT like cars as that is exactly where the market is in regards to both sales numbers and margins.
As a casual aside, if Lotus sell 1,000 cars in a year and have a margin of £10k per unit is that kind of profit of much interest to anyone? Especially the risks of that margin coming under heavy pressure at any point.
It's an extremely tough business to be in.
Mass car producers have moved into this space with all their mod cons and looks and the ability to build very cheap. Not the same product to enthusiasts but pretty much for the general public they are.
Look at all the specialist track day firms eating in to that niche, a niche which Lotus really should have been the total ruler.
So multinationals are building small roadsters in bulk at low prices, myriad specialists building track cars, a whole host of companies selling weekend cars.
It's a b
d of a market place for them to be in and to try and sell to people with such limited common and business sense that they think Lotus should be cheaper than the volume builders. But I do feel their market lies in a halo road model like the Esprit and then a selection of barely road useable track cars for beginners up to mentally unstable.
Build in small numbers, build well and ensure a strong enough brand to guarantee a healthy margin.
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