RE: Tell me I'm wrong: Porsche 911 Cabriolet
Discussion
Envy 
A few years ago, when I was publishing Autocar, we had the newsreader Krishnan Guru Murthy present the Autocar awards.
He got up in front of a room full of the industry's great and good and in his opening paragraphs tried to get the audience (comprised for the most part of car designers, senior industry execs and journalists) on side by proudly declaring that he was "a bit of a car nut actually," to a murmur of appreciation from the room. Unfortunately he then proceeded to tell everyone that he loved his 996 C4S Tiptronic cab because of the way it handled and looked. The audience was too polite to boo, but the sound of nearly 900 people collectively thinking "wrong car mate" was almost audible.
He bombed. Genuinely didn't have a clue why afterwards either.
He got up in front of a room full of the industry's great and good and in his opening paragraphs tried to get the audience (comprised for the most part of car designers, senior industry execs and journalists) on side by proudly declaring that he was "a bit of a car nut actually," to a murmur of appreciation from the room. Unfortunately he then proceeded to tell everyone that he loved his 996 C4S Tiptronic cab because of the way it handled and looked. The audience was too polite to boo, but the sound of nearly 900 people collectively thinking "wrong car mate" was almost audible.
He bombed. Genuinely didn't have a clue why afterwards either.
Right Dan - can't persuade you on the cab (though open air motoring and that flat 6 are a tempting combination). But what about the Targa. In my view that should be the stealth 911 cabrio but they always seem to stick cheesy chrome trim up the inside of the C-pillars to shout "my roof comes off, hate me!" If the Targa looked 90% like a coupe you would have my ideal 911. Might even make a good GT3. Off to duck for cover but I have driven a GT3 and it was amazing. One of those with a removable roof panel (carbon fibre would be fine) would be stupendous! Flat 6 soundtrack, wind in hair no stiffness compromises. No need for a cab.
Totally agree with the author here, I had a 996 c4s cab and I grew to dislike its proportions, and it somehow always started to look wrong. The big back end looked out of scale, except when viewed directly from behind. But its the look of the sidelines and the way the rear part of the cabin loses that 911 look, I went back to a Boxster S , because it looks right and is what it is.. a roadster. Mike
I see no reason why you wouldn't want the Convertible, especially if buying in standard Carrera 2 form...
I'd always plump for the convertible version of any car - for me it heightens the pleasure... you get more noise, more exposure to the elements, and in some cars you feel a tiny bit more vulnerable, which is all excellent for an adrenaline seeking sports car buyer.
Plus modern convertibles are so easy to live with... well insulated roofs, super fast mechanisms that can be operated on the move... no excuse not to have the roof down.
I'd always plump for the convertible version of any car - for me it heightens the pleasure... you get more noise, more exposure to the elements, and in some cars you feel a tiny bit more vulnerable, which is all excellent for an adrenaline seeking sports car buyer.
Plus modern convertibles are so easy to live with... well insulated roofs, super fast mechanisms that can be operated on the move... no excuse not to have the roof down.
I'm going to be controversial yet again (like I was with the C4's) with 911's and say I like 911 Cabrio's. I'm a big fan of wind in the hair motoring, and to be honest unless the thing's got horrific scuttle shake (like a MINI), or column shake (like a Maser 4200) then I'm not fussed about the last degree of feedback and control.
I get more pleasure out of having the top down on a blast than I do out of that last bit of dynamic ability. My mum has a mint 993 C4 cabrio and it's got a bit of body movement but not enough to be unsettling, and it's a joyous thing to drive, and still full of feedback and precision. I even think it looks good with the top down and the tonneau on.
Tiptronic though... God no, there's just no reason to do that to yourself!
I get more pleasure out of having the top down on a blast than I do out of that last bit of dynamic ability. My mum has a mint 993 C4 cabrio and it's got a bit of body movement but not enough to be unsettling, and it's a joyous thing to drive, and still full of feedback and precision. I even think it looks good with the top down and the tonneau on.
Tiptronic though... God no, there's just no reason to do that to yourself!
Speaking as someone who likes soft-tops - The 911 is an icon, and it shouldn't suffer the ignominy of having it's roof cut off.
People should either buy a 911, or a different car in convertible or roadster form. But not a convertible 911, it just isn't right.
Same with awd. Why buy a 911 and then have it's attributes dialled out with awd?
People should either buy a 911, or a different car in convertible or roadster form. But not a convertible 911, it just isn't right.
Same with awd. Why buy a 911 and then have it's attributes dialled out with awd?
Gorbyrev said:
If the Targa looked 90% like a coupe you would have my ideal 911. Might even make a good GT3. Off to duck for cover but I have driven a GT3 and it was amazing. One of those with a removable roof panel (carbon fibre would be fine) would be stupendous! Flat 6 soundtrack, wind in hair no stiffness compromises. No need for a cab.
I agree, A GT3 set up with the clever porsche Targa roof made from a lightweight CF would be an awesome car, and soo much better than a Cab in every way.The price of £95k is what I cannot get my head around!! A Boxster S is better looking, has 9/10 of the performance, a better all round driving experience, similar interior all for near enough 50% the cost. 911 Cab - no thanks!!!!
Dan Trent said:
Stuart said:
He bombed. Genuinely didn't have a clue why afterwards either.
Ouch!And Targas? Ref. that lack of/'wrong' C-pillar thing in the main article I'm afraid! Nice try though!
Boxster Spyder maybe?
After living for 5 years with a soft top (yes, a hairdresser's Z3), when it was time to move to a 911 (dream come true time) I actually thought about the cabrio, but then I realised I actually do not like it. And as a matter of fact, I don't want another convertible as only car.
Not that modern convertibles aren't practical; the current roof systems are as good as any fixed tops, but it's just that I like the "full" car more.
And as for the 911, I have to say I'm not a fan of the cabrio. The last iteration is a massive improvement, both with top up or down. But no. I'd still get the tin top.
If I had the choice to get a 993 targa, on the other hand....
Not that modern convertibles aren't practical; the current roof systems are as good as any fixed tops, but it's just that I like the "full" car more.
And as for the 911, I have to say I'm not a fan of the cabrio. The last iteration is a massive improvement, both with top up or down. But no. I'd still get the tin top.
If I had the choice to get a 993 targa, on the other hand....
This is such and old arguement and like all things Porsche bogged down with clichés and prejudice.
IMHO you have to seperate dynamics from looks. No 911 with the roof removed is ever going to have the handling or precision of a GT3 around a track. So if ultimate handling and being a track warrior is your goal, don't buy a cab (same applies to a targa).
Beyond that everything is compromise. As a road car probably since the 996, the cab variant has been absolutely fine if that floats your boat. Cabs earlier than that IMHO were too compromised engineering wise even for fast road use.
Then there are the looks. It is quite difficult to hide the roof where the engine is, that is a problem that is pretty unique to 911's. In the past it has led to the pram look or the Jennifer Lopez look.... neither particularly attractive. Porsche have improved this with every generation and I agree that with the 991 they have arrived at the best so far.... but that is totally subjective.
My two cents for the pot.
IMHO you have to seperate dynamics from looks. No 911 with the roof removed is ever going to have the handling or precision of a GT3 around a track. So if ultimate handling and being a track warrior is your goal, don't buy a cab (same applies to a targa).
Beyond that everything is compromise. As a road car probably since the 996, the cab variant has been absolutely fine if that floats your boat. Cabs earlier than that IMHO were too compromised engineering wise even for fast road use.
Then there are the looks. It is quite difficult to hide the roof where the engine is, that is a problem that is pretty unique to 911's. In the past it has led to the pram look or the Jennifer Lopez look.... neither particularly attractive. Porsche have improved this with every generation and I agree that with the 991 they have arrived at the best so far.... but that is totally subjective.
My two cents for the pot.
Edited by Andy N on Friday 22 June 09:50
Andy N said:
This is such and old arguement and like all things Porsche bogged down with clichés and predujice.
IMHO you have to seperate dynamics from looks. No 911 with the roof removed is ever going to have the handling or precision of a GT3 around a track. So if ultimate handling and being a track warrior is your goal, don't buy a cab (same applies to a targa).
Beyond that everything is compromise. As a road car probably since the 996, the cab variant has been absolutely fine if that floats your boat. Cabs earlier than that IMHO were too compromised engineering wise even for fast road use.
Then there are the looks. It is quite difficult to hide the roof where the engine is, that is a problem that is pretty unique to 911's. In the past it has led to the pram look or the Jennifer Lopez look.... neither particularly attractive. Porsche have improved this with every generation and I agree that with the 991 they have arrived at the best so far.... but that is totally subjective.
My two cents for the pot.
Pretty much sums it up.IMHO you have to seperate dynamics from looks. No 911 with the roof removed is ever going to have the handling or precision of a GT3 around a track. So if ultimate handling and being a track warrior is your goal, don't buy a cab (same applies to a targa).
Beyond that everything is compromise. As a road car probably since the 996, the cab variant has been absolutely fine if that floats your boat. Cabs earlier than that IMHO were too compromised engineering wise even for fast road use.
Then there are the looks. It is quite difficult to hide the roof where the engine is, that is a problem that is pretty unique to 911's. In the past it has led to the pram look or the Jennifer Lopez look.... neither particularly attractive. Porsche have improved this with every generation and I agree that with the 991 they have arrived at the best so far.... but that is totally subjective.
My two cents for the pot.
Unless you're driving close to 10/10ths you won't miss the roof. In fact, in sunnier climes I'd have the convertible. I still remember bombing down a Miami highway at 2am in the morning in a drop top 997S...145mph with a pissed off girlfriend holding her hair at her shoulder with a clenched fist meant for me, while I shouted "1-4-5 WOOHOO!" to no one in particular...memories... *wipes wistful tear from eye*
For me it always comes back to the same point (which Dan's mentioned already) - Roadsters/Cabrios/Soft-tops/Convertibles only ever look good when they were designed that way from the outset. Taking a 'normal' and chopping the top off to cater to a new market just ruins the aesthetic of the car. Every time....Actually the only exception I might allow is the E46 3 Series, but it's still not for me.
Unless anyone has any good suggestions to prove me wrong?
Unless anyone has any good suggestions to prove me wrong?
El Shafto said:
For me it always comes back to the same point (which Dan's mentioned already) - Roadsters/Cabrios/Soft-tops/Convertibles only ever look good when they were designed that way from the outset.
But modern versions of the 911 are designed to be cabrios from the outset - you can't seriously think that every time Porsche refresh the 911 they completely forget that there might later be a cabrio? Or do you mean the 911 cab will always look bad because the original 901 was designed as a coupe first and the current design is too similar? I thought Dan's point was that chopping the roof off a tip-top ruins the handling not the looks, anyway.
More the looks, to be completely honest! The dynamic gap has closed somewhat now, though +70kg does make something of a difference and there's no escaping a coupe will always be a little sharper.
But, fundamentally, it's about the looks and image. Sorry to be so shallow but there we go!
Categorically, I have nothing against open cars though and nor this is based on some macho, real men don't drive cabrios thing. Hell, look what I spent my own money on in PH Fleet if you're in any doubt about that!
But, fundamentally, it's about the looks and image. Sorry to be so shallow but there we go!
Categorically, I have nothing against open cars though and nor this is based on some macho, real men don't drive cabrios thing. Hell, look what I spent my own money on in PH Fleet if you're in any doubt about that!
Edited by Dan Trent on Friday 22 June 10:12
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