RE: PH Heroes: Vauxhall Firenza HP 'Droopsnoot'

[nismo48]

Bird watching more fun....

LuS1fer said:

nismo48 said:

For a nigh on 40 yr old car its not that bad...
And a shed...?????

Dave Hedgehog said:

what a horrible shed

actually makes modern vauxhalls look half decent and thats going some

He thinks VW Audis are stylish though.

Me? I like trains...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AG0ePq5LlA&fea...

[MadDog1962]

Dave Hedgehog said:

what a horrible shed

actually makes modern vauxhalls look half decent and thats going some

Oh come on, don't be such a philistine. I remember when these were hot cars back in the 70s. Looking back these things have a certain purity that modern cars have lost. Admittedly there are classier cars from the period (I'd prefer to run a good Alfasud - if I could only find one that hadn't rotted into nothing). But 3 litre Capris and faster Firenzas were fun cars back in their day.

[ragspeed]

I worked at a Vauxhall dealers in Biggleswade called Watkins in the early Seventies, as a delivery driver and in the valeting dept. I had the opportunity to deliver several Firenza Droopsnoots, loads of Magnum 1800/2300 Sportshatches and one Chevette HSR.
The Chevette was unbelievable for it's day (my daily driver was a 1300L Escort - enough said), but the Sportshatches really stood out - fantastic dash design with the rev counter needle going the opposite way to normal, loads of gauges and Recaro seats. The handling was as good as my dad's Cortina Mk3 and the build quality on these was way better than Ford's. Bearing in mind our top of the range car was a Ventora 3.3 six, the Firenza's were a big improvement. I'd love another one! Having said that, in the 70's petrol and beer was cheap and the sun always shone.....
The big problem I remember with the plum paint was it was really soft, even buffing it with Turtle wax left little swirls in the finish. we have loads in for refinishing.

[Shotgun Rider]

Riggers said:

Aye - the 'Magnum' IIRC? they made a couple of hundred of those, too, partly because they had a few nosecones left over!

196 I think.

I love the Droopsnoot, almost bought one mid restoration over 10 years ago for less than a grand. I'm no mechanic so left it, wish I'd bought it seeing the prices they fetch now.

[s m]

ragspeed said:

loads of Magnum 1800/2300 Sportshatches

http://www.classicmobilia.com/Pages/JohnPopeSpecia...

[coppice]

A close friend owned a Droopsnoot in early 70s and I have some mixed memories of the car. It looked absolutely stunning , especially on a 70s roadscape of Marinas and Datsun Cherries- and remember that although silver is ubiquitous now it was a rare colour then. It was well made and felt hewn from solid compared to an equivalent Ford. Great gearbox- ZF with dogleg first - just like a Ferrari; felt industrial compared to an Escort box but suited car well. Sadly , nothing like as quick as it looked - it'd get up to a ton and then slowly gain momentum whils making a lot of noise.

[radlet6]

I think you will find that it was the exorbitant price that killed it rather than the oil crisis.

When you consider that the cost of a new Firenza was £2,280; a newly face lifted, and more powerful (150 bhp), Capri 3100 was just a shade under £2,200, which was already well established in the market place.

But all this was well beyond the pockets of the average Joe, who plumped for the more affordable Escort RS 2000 at only £1,800. Sure it only had 100 bhp, but it had attached all the cache of Ford's rallying success of the 60's & 70's. Forget Gerry Marshall, and let's be honest most have, with an Escort you could be Roger Clark or Hannu Mikkola.

Edit: BTW an Escort Mexico was only £1,600 - the average wage (for men) in 1974 was £2,480 per annum. Oh, and this makes me smile, Metallic paint was £9.48 extra since two driving lamps would cost you £37.

Edited by radlet6 on Sunday 1st July 11:06

[radlet6]

LuS1fer said:

How on earth did they fit a 3000 litre engine in a Capri?

BTW just to give some ides, £2600 in 1974 was a lot of money. My parents bought a 3 bed semi for £6300 around that time.

Because the V6 engine wasn't much bigger than the 4 in line.

Yes it was, but house prices have got silly now, so the comparison doesn't quite work anymore.

[LuS1fer]

radlet6 said:

Because the V6 engine wasn't much bigger than the 4 in line.

Yes it was, but house prices have got silly now, so the comparison doesn't quite work anymore.

Whoosh parrot for the 3000 LITRE!

And it does still work to some degree (notwithstanding property price explosions)as the average wage back then was far lower. No minimum wage in those days and new cars were still very much an uncommon sight.

To be fair, you could also pick up a 3.8 Mk II Jag for washers and a friend's Dad picked up a nearly new XJ12 in 1973 for £2200 as nobody dared buy them.

[radlet6]

LuS1fer said:

Whoosh parrot for the 3000 LITRE!

And it does still work to some degree (notwithstanding property price explosions)as the average wage back then was far lower. No minimum wage in those days and new cars were still very much an uncommon sight.

To be fair, you could also pick up a 3.8 Mk II Jag for washers and a friend's Dad picked up a nearly new XJ12 in 1973 for £2200 as nobody dared buy them.

No the Capri had a very large engine bay, so there.

In '74 your average 3.8 Jag was a nail. Yes the XJ 12 was a very scary car indeed. We got one to work on in the late 70's with big end failure. It took 2 days just to get the engine out (removing all the ancillaries took most of the time - the battery had 2 cooling fans).

Average wage was £2,480 per annum - see edit above. So your folks 3 bed semi was only 2.7 times the average wage. In 2011 it was £26,200 - times 2.7 equals £70,740. You would struggle to buy a bedsit for that now - unless you you don't mind being in the centre of Britain's worst sink estates.

Edited by radlet6 on Sunday 1st July 10:59

[LuS1fer]

radlet6 said:

Average wage was £2,480 per annum - see edit above. So your folks 3 bed semi was only 2.7 times the average wage. In 2011 it was £26,200 - times 2.7 equals £70,740. You would struggle to buy a bedsit for that now - unless you you don't mind being in the centre of Britain's worst sink estates.

Ee, we used to dream o'livin' on a sink estate...

I see your point but nonetheless, most people would never dream of spending £2600 on a car. My Dad paid £400 for a 4 year old Firenza 2000SL around that time. My mate's Dad had a very nice Jag 3.8 too (paid £800 for that) though he did trade it in for a Celica 1600ST in 1974 because of the fuel costs - being the local pub landlord, he was one of the few who could afford a new car.

Credit wasn't really fashionable back then like it is now either.

[B Huey]

Love these, I still kick myself daily for not buying one that a friend was selling. He wanted 150 smackers.

[Morningside]

My first ever car was a silver Firenza. I really wanted a Droopsnoot but then again, I really wanted the Magnum at the time.

The woman I worked with at the time (1986 ish) had a Black Watch.

Edited by Morningside on Monday 2nd July 19:15

[aeropilot]

I really wanted a DSF back in 82/83, but reasonable ones were still in the £2-2.5k price range then, and my budget was definately sub £2k, and reasonable Mk1 RS2000's were (relatively) plentiful in the £1.5-1.75k price range. I did go and have a look at a couple of cheap DSF's in that price range, but they were cheap for a reason.
Ended up the RS2 in the end.

Did get to know quite a few of the DSG lads over the coming years though from show meets etc. Good bunch, and they are great, and very rare cars.

Absolutely love that LS engined one posted earier.......gloriously mental, and a great take on a modern Can Am

[heightswitch]

radlet6 said:

I think you will find that it was the exorbitant price that killed it rather than the oil crisis.

When you consider that the cost of a new Firenza was £2,280; a newly face lifted, and more powerful (150 bhp), Capri 3100 was just a shade under £2,200, which was already well established in the market place.

But all this was well beyond the pockets of the average Joe, who plumped for the more affordable Escort RS 2000 at only £1,800. Sure it only had 100 bhp, but it had attached all the cache of Ford's rallying success of the 60's & 70's. Forget Gerry Marshall, and let's be honest most have, with an Escort you could be Roger Clark or Hannu Mikkola.

Edit: BTW an Escort Mexico was only £1,600 - the average wage (for men) in 1974 was £2,480 per annum. Oh, and this makes me smile, Metallic paint was £9.48 extra since two driving lamps would cost you £37.

Edited by radlet6 on Sunday 1st July 11:06

Now you really are a Philistine.
And not everyone has forgotten Gerry.

Personally I have owned more Fords than Vauxhalls but the Firenzas, Magnums etc of the day were very accomplished cars, with very very good handling and much better than the cart sprung escorts in engineering terms.
Regarding hotter versions..I would argue that the layout of the vauxhall bay and dist between the chassis rails gave very good transplant conversions...including some very powerfull south african production versions...you also didn't have to notch the sump like a comparable ford of the time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5Gs28wyArg&fea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrAICyRTqs4&fea...

And finaly one for Gerry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIUryTV5DII&fea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk2KMwywAxg&fea...

[radlet6]

heightswitch said:

Now you really are a Philistine.
And not everyone has forgotten Gerry.

Personally I have owned more Fords than Vauxhalls but the Firenzas, Magnums etc of the day were very accomplished cars, with very very good handling and much better than the cart sprung escorts in engineering terms.
Regarding hotter versions..I would argue that the layout of the vauxhall bay and dist between the chassis rails gave very good transplant conversions...including some very powerfull south african production versions...you also didn't have to notch the sump like a comparable ford of the time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5Gs28wyArg&fea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrAICyRTqs4&fea...

And finaly one for Gerry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIUryTV5DII&fea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk2KMwywAxg&fea...

Please explain the Philistine reference - I don't see how that works as I haven't in any way decried Mr Marshall's abilities behind the wheel. I simply pointed out that Ford's Rally success gave the Escort a better image than the track success of Vauxhall, simply because rallying at the time had a higher profile.

Hence the boy racers at the time didn't want to mimic Gerry Marshall (as good as he was), but Ford's Rally stars. Quite simply, Ford had a better PR machine.

[heightswitch]

radlet6 said:

Please explain the Philistine reference - I don't see how that works as I haven't in any way decried Mr Marshall's abilities behind the wheel. I simply pointed out that Ford's Rally success gave the Escort a better image than the track success of Vauxhall, simply because rallying at the time had a higher profile.

Hence the boy racers at the time didn't want to mimic Gerry Marshall (as good as he was), but Ford's Rally stars. Quite simply, Ford had a better PR machine.

I found your post disrespectful and more importantly innaccurate regarding the relative images of both the cars and sports...

Rallying was quite an amatuerish affair even into the mid seventies...Yes we had certain events such as Clark's win is Esso Blue etc but Generally in the 70's all club circuit based motorsports were often fully televised affairs...Rallying proper began to make more TV appearances in 75 with the coming of the MK 2 Escort. It actually became more popular post the Tour of Britain events etc. Hence many manufacturers moved away from racing toward rallying..Also Hence DTV moving from circuits into Rallying at the end of the 76 season...effectively curtailing Gerry's factory (Dealer) backed racing in Vauxhalls.

Rallying's Golden age was very much the years 77 -82 culminating in the David Sutton Rothmans cars. The firenza pre-dated the MK2 by some 2-3 years...Earlier fords being the Twink and BDA MK1's, again built more as homologated cars for circuit racing, than rallying which they were also very good at. The Mk1 however should be compared with the VIva GT's, Holbays etc which again were derived as homologation cars for circuit racing!!

Ford didn't so much build a good rally car..They did however plough much more money into sport generally compared to GM who felt it didn't give off the family image they were promoting at the time..Hence the dealer network sponsorship as opposed to the direct factory support of Ford.

Fords Capri was as you state a generally a cheaper car I grant you but the Firenza was very much the thoroughbred of the day and exclusive..I never saw many of them even as a kid when they were new..Relative cost therefore did not kill off the Firenza..It was more to do with the culture of the 2 companies presiding at the time during a 5 year period from 75 on!!...relative costs alone seldom dictate the popularity of a car!!

I don't know how any true enthusiast could quote that "most people have forgotten" the most successful Club racer of all time" Phillistine as such was possibly a bad turn of Phrase ?...

Regarding the ford v GM images in rallying..Your memories differ to mine..I remember Mk2's giving way to Chevettes, Asconas and Manta 400's before 4WD became the norm.. all of these including fords were on my lists of cars to own..If anything beyond 81 GM had a much greater presence in rallying then ford who pulled away in 1980!

N

Edited by heightswitch on Wednesday 4th July 23:50

Edited by heightswitch on Wednesday 4th July 23:55

[brightonpad]

Sportshatches - had two of 'em guv. Which makes that more than 1% of the production run, not many people can make that claim!! I think the final production run was 197 and they were essentially a Magnum 2.3 single carb, 4 speed, with the nose cone added (quite rightly as someone pointed out, surplus from the Firenza's short run), special paint (deep wine red was the correct colour), and red carpets/tartan interior - made from 76-77.

My first one was a resto project that never saw the road - NRG180P.. and I guess it never did. Second one, OVS501R I bought from the chief technician at a Vauxhall dealer in Slough in about 1995.. it already had twin carbs, BVH. I kept it for a year, added spax suspension, peco exhaust, had it RR'd at John Noble and spent my time going sideways, laughing hysterically whilst my mates were pootling around in Nova SRs/XR2s and the like. Hardly had any FWD cars since.

I miss it dearly, had it till around 2000 from memory, another aborted restoration - suspect it sadly never made it back to life.

So actually, with some humility, I have to admit that I actually ruined 1% of the population as well...

Apparently less that 10 left. Erk.

[LuS1fer]

I can't really agree with heightswitch's analysis.

The Capri was the Firenza counterpart, not the Escort and it was more often the Capri that did the track side of Fords' motorsport. the Firenza was also rallied but to lesser success than the Escort but a large part of Ford's success was the drivers they employed. Vauxhall were soon on it with the Chevette HS and Pentti Airikkala was one of my rallying heroes. As with anything, it was what degree of commitment the manufacturers put into the sports that largely dictated the successes. GM also rallied the Opel Kadett GTE to useful effect.

The rarity of the Firenza is relative. You went to Essex, you saw nothing but Fords but round Ellesmere Port, you saw a hell of a lot of Vauxhalls. While the Firenza was, in my view, the better handling car, the Capri had better looks (pre-droopsnoot), a better gearbox, a better "image" as it was linked to the Mustang and above all in 1974 it got a hatchback. In that regard, Vauxhall were ahead of their time as they made 2 door Viva "lifestyle" estates with sloping backs - popular now but not then - but people liked Capris and that was about the end of it. In addition, the 1800 and 2300 slant-fours were always strangled by Strombergs where Ford used big fat Webers and Ford also had a 3 litre, not a 2.3.

It was an odd time, the 70's - people liked defined categories - 1.3, 1.6. 2.0. 2.5 and 3.0. They didn't much take to 1.8s or 2.3s and BL found this with their 1.7's, 1.8s and 2.2s. The Viva was bigger than an Escort but smaller than a Cortina and the Victor was more Granada size so Ford covered the sectors far better.

Edited by LuS1fer on Thursday 5th July 11:18

[droopsnoot]

brightonpad said:

Sportshatches - had two of 'em guv.

Ooh, I also had two, have a photograph of them side by side on the driveway. One is now in Australia, the other is in my shed undergoing extensive restoration.

According to the club register, OVS501R was owned by a guy called Bernie between 1991 and 1992, it had original seats, wheels and a full-length sunroof. NRG doesn't show on the register at all, but there's an NRJ180P showing. Got any photos I could share?