RE: Video: Key fob reprogrammers steal BMW in 3 mins
Discussion
As others have said, glad this is getting front page coverage! I work with quiet a few auto locksmiths and they can programme any keys apart from volvos, these are dealer only as they have to be done via volvo. Very secure! Yeah it might cost dealer prices but at least it won't get robbed! Why don't more do this?
On a side note if anyone is in the Manchester area and worried about there BMW(or other vehicle) I will come fit a switch to the power on diag port. For PHers just price of parts. DM me if interested
Arbs
On a side note if anyone is in the Manchester area and worried about there BMW(or other vehicle) I will come fit a switch to the power on diag port. For PHers just price of parts. DM me if interested
Arbs
They should do a one time pad with the code stamped onto the car.
If you lose your car to a tow truck theft then they go through the same procedures as if you had lost your passport or returning a child to a guardian or buying a brand new BMW on finance and being given/delivered the car and keys.
Otherwise the key is stamped onto the car so there is no way to short the process even with key exhaustion it's impossible. Or they could do it over the internet with the same method for those who lose their only key often.
If you lose your car to a tow truck theft then they go through the same procedures as if you had lost your passport or returning a child to a guardian or buying a brand new BMW on finance and being given/delivered the car and keys.
Otherwise the key is stamped onto the car so there is no way to short the process even with key exhaustion it's impossible. Or they could do it over the internet with the same method for those who lose their only key often.
Edited by tercelgold on Monday 2nd July 18:32
sugerbear said:
I will second this. Its sloppy/lazy but that is easy to say in hindsight.
What manuafactures should be doing is shipping each car with a unique programmable key for the ignition so that a new fob cant be re-programmed from the fob without the unqiue key. When you buy the car you get a key (it could even be positioned somewhere like the boot and only opened with the key) and BMW also get to keep a copy of the key via a system that logs all access.
So your independent garage can use it (if they should ever need to re-programme a key for you) or your BMW garage can us it.
The only problem is that either method allows either the original owner or a dodgy garage to keep a copy of the key so maybe BMW need another method of allowing the owner to apply a new key for the module which is registered at BMW (and the key supplied to the owner).
not a problem if they used one-time keys, jobs a carrot.What manuafactures should be doing is shipping each car with a unique programmable key for the ignition so that a new fob cant be re-programmed from the fob without the unqiue key. When you buy the car you get a key (it could even be positioned somewhere like the boot and only opened with the key) and BMW also get to keep a copy of the key via a system that logs all access.
So your independent garage can use it (if they should ever need to re-programme a key for you) or your BMW garage can us it.
The only problem is that either method allows either the original owner or a dodgy garage to keep a copy of the key so maybe BMW need another method of allowing the owner to apply a new key for the module which is registered at BMW (and the key supplied to the owner).
Adrian W said:
roger.daltrey said:
In reply to previous poster about the tracker - you can buy a 'jammer' from Amazon of all places
See this
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mini-Jammer-Blocker-Vehicl...
Only £20 and it blocks GPS
Didn't know it was this easy !!
Seems to make Trackers redundant if they are this easy to overcome ?
Surely it should be illegal to sell this, I cant think of a legal reason to own oneSee this
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mini-Jammer-Blocker-Vehicl...
Only £20 and it blocks GPS
Didn't know it was this easy !!
Seems to make Trackers redundant if they are this easy to overcome ?
Scuffers said:
sugerbear said:
I will second this. Its sloppy/lazy but that is easy to say in hindsight.
What manuafactures should be doing is shipping each car with a unique programmable key for the ignition so that a new fob cant be re-programmed from the fob without the unqiue key. When you buy the car you get a key (it could even be positioned somewhere like the boot and only opened with the key) and BMW also get to keep a copy of the key via a system that logs all access.
So your independent garage can use it (if they should ever need to re-programme a key for you) or your BMW garage can us it.
The only problem is that either method allows either the original owner or a dodgy garage to keep a copy of the key so maybe BMW need another method of allowing the owner to apply a new key for the module which is registered at BMW (and the key supplied to the owner).
not a problem if they used one-time keys, jobs a carrot.What manuafactures should be doing is shipping each car with a unique programmable key for the ignition so that a new fob cant be re-programmed from the fob without the unqiue key. When you buy the car you get a key (it could even be positioned somewhere like the boot and only opened with the key) and BMW also get to keep a copy of the key via a system that logs all access.
So your independent garage can use it (if they should ever need to re-programme a key for you) or your BMW garage can us it.
The only problem is that either method allows either the original owner or a dodgy garage to keep a copy of the key so maybe BMW need another method of allowing the owner to apply a new key for the module which is registered at BMW (and the key supplied to the owner).
This issue has been around for quite a while, well done PH for highlighting this issue, WHy BMW? WHy not, massed produced, easy to ring, sell in any country around the world, BMW do NOT care about their clients and have a bad attitude towards them...
On another note, I was advised by a very large insurer a few months ago they will not offer rates on the newer keyless enty X5 because of this issue,and the amount of thefts they are dealing with.
Is the X5 the 2nd most stolen vehicle in the UK behind the goood ol Transit??
On another note, I was advised by a very large insurer a few months ago they will not offer rates on the newer keyless enty X5 because of this issue,and the amount of thefts they are dealing with.
Is the X5 the 2nd most stolen vehicle in the UK behind the goood ol Transit??
Hellbound said:
Or you could just reset the system. There'll always be a way around this stuff. I remember when people used to 'grab' the signal emitted from the keyfob when the owner unlocked the car. If BMW engineer a way for their own garages to unlock these cars, that information will leak out to anyone who wants to know. That goes without saying.
how is that going to help with one-time codes?Look, this kind of stuff is childs play to do properly, the fact that car makers seem not to care/CBA to implement is just a reflection of they attitude towards security and their customers.
crancko said:
hman said:
Proof required please - I've heard too many bulls
t stories about this sort of thing.
Also I dont see this team holding a can of compressed air and a hammer.
And I cant see them taking 2-3 minutes smacking the st out of the lock on the driveway making and enormous racket.
These locks are designed to deter and extend the amount of time taken to steal a vehicle - therefore putting the thief off.
and for the guy that says " they just hacksaw them off " - have you ever tried to hacksaw a steering wheel? - it takes a fair while and you have to potentially do it in two places !!!!
I'm glad that you're not disputing the removal of the wire from the OBD port though eh
Guessing they do something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGU8CkOG9a8t stories about this sort of thing.Also I dont see this team holding a can of compressed air and a hammer.
And I cant see them taking 2-3 minutes smacking the s
t out of the lock on the driveway making and enormous racket.These locks are designed to deter and extend the amount of time taken to steal a vehicle - therefore putting the thief off.
and for the guy that says " they just hacksaw them off " - have you ever tried to hacksaw a steering wheel? - it takes a fair while and you have to potentially do it in two places !!!!
I'm glad that you're not disputing the removal of the wire from the OBD port though eh
Spray on concentrated area, hammer a screwdriver down the middle and it would probably go poof?! Shouldn't take long and wouldn't make much noise either.
And for those Ph'ers that think all steering wheels are made of cheese and can be "hacksawed in seconds" I must remind you that these thefts are done on the premise of being carried out quietly and quickly - hacksawing is neither in the dead of night.
Also if you hacksaw a steering wheel on a bmw then you make the car a no-forward sale car as you cant do a plate change and sell a car with a hacksawed wheel.
If the criminal gang could be arsed to go and buy a new steering wheel then they'll be spending about £600-£1000 for one or waiting a while for the right one to come up on ebay.
You'll need a chassis number to get the right one and nowadays you'll probably need to get it coded to the car to make the functions work - way way way too much hassle!
ANYWAY!
As I said earlier locks wont prevent the theft but they make it a less attractive proposition when there are plenty of other cars without locks which are ready to go.
I really doubt this group of crims go with more than they need to carry - the programmer and the means of entering the car.
If they get caught late at night with hacksaws, freezing sprays, hammers, chisels etc. then they will be immediately detained for "going equipped" so they wont bother.
Think like a criminal to beat a criminal - rather than just coming up with "ideal scenarios" for anti theft features to be defeated- most car criminals really cant be bothered with anything but a simple 100% sucess approach and this OBD programmer is exactly that!
This has taken too long to become common knowledge and I hope BMW do something quickly to reduce this spate of thefts.
Luckily my mine has a bladed key...
Scuffers said:
how is that going to help with one-time codes?
Look, this kind of stuff is childs play to do properly, the fact that car makers seem not to care/CBA to implement is just a reflection of they attitude towards security and their customers.
But at some point you have to deal with a customer whom has lost their keys and try to work out if they own the car or not.Look, this kind of stuff is childs play to do properly, the fact that car makers seem not to care/CBA to implement is just a reflection of they attitude towards security and their customers.
tercelgold said:
Scuffers said:
how is that going to help with one-time codes?
Look, this kind of stuff is childs play to do properly, the fact that car makers seem not to care/CBA to implement is just a reflection of they attitude towards security and their customers.
But at some point you have to deal with a customer whom has lost their keys and try to work out if they own the car or not.Look, this kind of stuff is childs play to do properly, the fact that car makers seem not to care/CBA to implement is just a reflection of they attitude towards security and their customers.
It doesn't even need an engineer to commit the crime themselves, they can sell the info on to a third party.
For a long time now, the ignition key, whether keyless or not, has been the most valuable part of the car, as without one, the car is useless (unless put on the back of a truck to be stripped for parts)
In a way, this method of theft is probably better for the owner than the methods used prior to key programming being cracked by car thieves... For the last 5 years or so, cars with decent factory security were still being stolen, it just carried more risk for the criminals taking them as they needed to get into the house to get the key - which is exactly what they did, and at the same time, it increased risk for the owner, as if they couldn't find a key, they would make the owner tell them where it was.
Car crime is profitable - there's no getting away from that - as long as there are nice cars, there will be the scumbags that want them without paying for them. As and when the current methods are blocked by the manufacturers, the criminals will be working hard to find a way around it, and so the cycle continues.
As for the EU and their part in all of this - from Euro IV onwards, all manufacturers have had to comply with a set of rules relating to fault diagnosis - all manufacturers have to use a set of generic fault codes for emission related problems for example. They also have to fit the OBDII port within a set distance of the steering wheel, with a set shape and pin layout
I'm not defending BMW, or in fact any other manufacturer, but whilst car crime remains a multi million pound business, there will always be criminals that are prepared to spend big money finding a way around the systems fitted by manufacturers. As and when the systems change, the method of just breaking into the owners home will return
In a way, this method of theft is probably better for the owner than the methods used prior to key programming being cracked by car thieves... For the last 5 years or so, cars with decent factory security were still being stolen, it just carried more risk for the criminals taking them as they needed to get into the house to get the key - which is exactly what they did, and at the same time, it increased risk for the owner, as if they couldn't find a key, they would make the owner tell them where it was.
Car crime is profitable - there's no getting away from that - as long as there are nice cars, there will be the scumbags that want them without paying for them. As and when the current methods are blocked by the manufacturers, the criminals will be working hard to find a way around it, and so the cycle continues.
As for the EU and their part in all of this - from Euro IV onwards, all manufacturers have had to comply with a set of rules relating to fault diagnosis - all manufacturers have to use a set of generic fault codes for emission related problems for example. They also have to fit the OBDII port within a set distance of the steering wheel, with a set shape and pin layout
I'm not defending BMW, or in fact any other manufacturer, but whilst car crime remains a multi million pound business, there will always be criminals that are prepared to spend big money finding a way around the systems fitted by manufacturers. As and when the systems change, the method of just breaking into the owners home will return
garypotter said:
This issue has been around for quite a while, well done PH for highlighting this issue, WHy BMW? WHy not, massed produced, easy to ring, sell in any country around the world, BMW do NOT care about their clients and have a bad attitude towards them...
On another note, I was advised by a very large insurer a few months ago they will not offer rates on the newer keyless enty X5 because of this issue,and the amount of thefts they are dealing with.
Is the X5 the 2nd most stolen vehicle in the UK behind the goood ol Transit??
Does this apply to only keyless entry/starting cars then?On another note, I was advised by a very large insurer a few months ago they will not offer rates on the newer keyless enty X5 because of this issue,and the amount of thefts they are dealing with.
Is the X5 the 2nd most stolen vehicle in the UK behind the goood ol Transit??
Hellbound said:
tercelgold said:
Scuffers said:
how is that going to help with one-time codes?
Look, this kind of stuff is childs play to do properly, the fact that car makers seem not to care/CBA to implement is just a reflection of they attitude towards security and their customers.
But at some point you have to deal with a customer whom has lost their keys and try to work out if they own the car or not.Look, this kind of stuff is childs play to do properly, the fact that car makers seem not to care/CBA to implement is just a reflection of they attitude towards security and their customers.
a properly designed system could not be compromised (outside of re-engineering the whole part).
this stuff is commonplace in the computer industry.
Fingerprint, Iris, voice and face recognition along with a system that scans for certain chemical markers in your breath.
Once all that is in place, thieves will just break into your house and make you add them as a second driver to the onboard security system. Or they save the hassle and make you drive to the port where you're loaded into the cargo container.
You'll then wake up from your drugged stupor to find yourself surrounded by an Albanian gang of some description. That's when they ask you to perform a hard reset on the car, where they remove the security systems entirely. You'll either be prostituted out or have your organs harvested before being dumped in a vat of acid.
Welcome to 2020 AD.
Once all that is in place, thieves will just break into your house and make you add them as a second driver to the onboard security system. Or they save the hassle and make you drive to the port where you're loaded into the cargo container.
You'll then wake up from your drugged stupor to find yourself surrounded by an Albanian gang of some description. That's when they ask you to perform a hard reset on the car, where they remove the security systems entirely. You'll either be prostituted out or have your organs harvested before being dumped in a vat of acid.
Welcome to 2020 AD.
Scuffers said:
Hellbound said:
tercelgold said:
Scuffers said:
how is that going to help with one-time codes?
Look, this kind of stuff is childs play to do properly, the fact that car makers seem not to care/CBA to implement is just a reflection of they attitude towards security and their customers.
But at some point you have to deal with a customer whom has lost their keys and try to work out if they own the car or not.Look, this kind of stuff is childs play to do properly, the fact that car makers seem not to care/CBA to implement is just a reflection of they attitude towards security and their customers.
a properly designed system could not be compromised (outside of re-engineering the whole part).
this stuff is commonplace in the computer industry.
Hellbound said:
^ I work in the 'computer industry'. Any system can be compromised, even if you write new code and build new hardware to bypass it and remove the need for it entirely.
WELL, clever you!so, how is the need to remove and replace a CAS with a custom made version (hardly trivial) going to make the cars as easily steal-able as the <10 sec issue now?
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff