RE: Lotus: Dead weight lifted or dead man walking?
Discussion
All this talk of Lotus needing a volume-seller has got me thinking.
How about they produce a hot hatch?
Not a Lotus-tweaked, Lotus-badged version of someone else's, but their own. OK, so it could be closely related to a more mainstream car, but completely made-over, rebodied, heavily tuned and devilishly fast, but also quite practical.
I'm thinking something along the lines of this new generation of three-door, low-roofed coupe-like hatches - Vauxhall GTC, VW Scirocco, Renault Megane GT and so on.
Actually, given that the Lotus-fettled Protons handle rather well, Lotus could base something on a Satria Neo, but give it a fire-breathing engine, alter all the exterior body panels, tweak the suspension and sell it as a cross between this:
And this:
All the raw materials are present within the company for Lotus to do that, they could knock it out at a price that would probably undercut the VXR, it would be sold as a pure Lotus model, and the whole 'boutique hatchback' market is THE booming sector at the moment. If a Lotus entrant into this market added properly searing performance into the mix, as well as great styling inside and out, they could be onto a winner.
Plus, the Proton it was based on would have passed all the various European mass-market safety regulations.
If it was marketed as the successor to the Lotus-Cortina and Talbot Sunbeam-Lotus, and maybe if Dan Welch was given one to race in the BTCC painted up in black and gold, it could serve as Lotus's 'Cayenne' without being totally against the Lotus engineering philosophy in the way an SUV would.
How about they produce a hot hatch?
Not a Lotus-tweaked, Lotus-badged version of someone else's, but their own. OK, so it could be closely related to a more mainstream car, but completely made-over, rebodied, heavily tuned and devilishly fast, but also quite practical.
I'm thinking something along the lines of this new generation of three-door, low-roofed coupe-like hatches - Vauxhall GTC, VW Scirocco, Renault Megane GT and so on.
Actually, given that the Lotus-fettled Protons handle rather well, Lotus could base something on a Satria Neo, but give it a fire-breathing engine, alter all the exterior body panels, tweak the suspension and sell it as a cross between this:
And this:
All the raw materials are present within the company for Lotus to do that, they could knock it out at a price that would probably undercut the VXR, it would be sold as a pure Lotus model, and the whole 'boutique hatchback' market is THE booming sector at the moment. If a Lotus entrant into this market added properly searing performance into the mix, as well as great styling inside and out, they could be onto a winner.
Plus, the Proton it was based on would have passed all the various European mass-market safety regulations.
If it was marketed as the successor to the Lotus-Cortina and Talbot Sunbeam-Lotus, and maybe if Dan Welch was given one to race in the BTCC painted up in black and gold, it could serve as Lotus's 'Cayenne' without being totally against the Lotus engineering philosophy in the way an SUV would.
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Oi moderators!! After some fairly robust criticism of the original article, are PH going to do something a little more in depth? Lotus needs some confidence for people to buy their cars, and knowing how hard they're working right now, and the efforts being put in by DRB-Hicom would probably help.
And Lotus (let's pretend for a minute you're listening to this drivel), please, please, please talk to the community. More than virtually any other manufacturer, Lotus commands a genuine, tight knit and passionate family. Not just online, but in person at amazing events such as the 60th anniversary celebration at Hethel a couple of years back.
Your reputation starts here - with the vast mass of people who follow your work, are passionate about sports cars and want to buy their next car from a vital and exciting manufacturer. We're the idiots who spouted "Loads of Trouble Usually Serious" in decades past, and the guys who said "You have to drive an Elise, it's incredible" more recently. Search for Lotus topics in Google and you stand a high chance of ending up on this forum, or Seloc or others. For instance, Google "how big are the rear seats in an Evora" and you find Pistonheads and Lotustalk on the front page.
If we take 22 pages (and counting) to agree on what Lotus represents, what cars they should produce and what their future holds, how on earth are you going to communicate that to the wider public who don't follow your every move? And please, don't just hire some idiot web firm to set up a Twitter feed - the community here meets at circuits, in cafes, at pubs and, yes online and does not take lightly to ill considered marketing ploys and empty promises. Yet, give us something good and we'll shout it from the hills.
And Lotus (let's pretend for a minute you're listening to this drivel), please, please, please talk to the community. More than virtually any other manufacturer, Lotus commands a genuine, tight knit and passionate family. Not just online, but in person at amazing events such as the 60th anniversary celebration at Hethel a couple of years back.
Your reputation starts here - with the vast mass of people who follow your work, are passionate about sports cars and want to buy their next car from a vital and exciting manufacturer. We're the idiots who spouted "Loads of Trouble Usually Serious" in decades past, and the guys who said "You have to drive an Elise, it's incredible" more recently. Search for Lotus topics in Google and you stand a high chance of ending up on this forum, or Seloc or others. For instance, Google "how big are the rear seats in an Evora" and you find Pistonheads and Lotustalk on the front page.
If we take 22 pages (and counting) to agree on what Lotus represents, what cars they should produce and what their future holds, how on earth are you going to communicate that to the wider public who don't follow your every move? And please, don't just hire some idiot web firm to set up a Twitter feed - the community here meets at circuits, in cafes, at pubs and, yes online and does not take lightly to ill considered marketing ploys and empty promises. Yet, give us something good and we'll shout it from the hills.
MarJay said:
Sales are low because everyone was panicking about that moron Bahahahar and his PR sideshow. Get back to making decent cars, and they will come.
I for one am MUCH more likely to buy a car from them now that joker has gone. Sadly I'm not financially in a position to do so now, but if I were, I'd be relieved.
So the manager has changed but the product has not yet now you would buy it.... Oh but you can't cause you still can't afford it. Thank goodness they don't factor this type of customer into their business model!!!I for one am MUCH more likely to buy a car from them now that joker has gone. Sadly I'm not financially in a position to do so now, but if I were, I'd be relieved.
Sensible discussion re the product, marketing, prices, competitors etc would be welcome but " I don't like the chap" is meaningless unless your name is Lamborghini....
Tuna said:
If we take 22 pages (and counting) to agree on what Lotus represents, what cars they should produce and what their future holds, how on earth are you going to communicate that to the wider public who don't follow your every move?
Fair point.Question is, what can Lotus deliver which isn't available elsewhere?
- MX-5 dominates the low cost sector
- Caterham and its cottage industry mates cover track-day specials with zero mod cons
- Z4 has a following in the sporty exec sector
- Cayman/Boxster has the "nice handling and well built" thing sewn up around £50k
- Morgan for the cloth cap brigade
- 911 has all the heritage and pedigree as prices rise
- Merc can do you an SL or an SLK for cruising
- Corvette has the big V8 territory stitched up tight
- Ferrari/Lamborghini/Aston and even Audi cover the sub-nutter glitz
- Pagani and Bugatti for those with more money then sense
The hey-day of the specialists was when the big manufacturers were focussed on mass produced saloons. With the big boys now in flexible manufacturing and churning out sportscars the specialist markt is virtually non-existent.
Twincam16 said:
They need to make another Elan variant similar to the M100. A bit more room inside and better built and its a winner. Sell it like the price of a new Fiat, fully loaded (whatever that means for a Lotus
) $25,000 id buy one ASAP.Twincam, I think that Lotus did show a concept of a hothatch a few years ago, and it wasn't a Proton either, merely an example of the chassis architecture in use on other car types.
I think if they go down that route though they have many competitors in what is not actually a profitable segment even for the big boys.
A better alternative I think would be to somehow produce something like the Toyaburu coupe. I still can't see how they could do it for the right price though.
I think if they go down that route though they have many competitors in what is not actually a profitable segment even for the big boys.
A better alternative I think would be to somehow produce something like the Toyaburu coupe. I still can't see how they could do it for the right price though.
Mikeyboy said:
Twincam, I think that Lotus did show a concept of a hothatch a few years ago, and it wasn't a Proton either, merely an example of the chassis architecture in use on other car types.
I think if they go down that route though they have many competitors in what is not actually a profitable segment even for the big boys.
A better alternative I think would be to somehow produce something like the Toyaburu coupe. I still can't see how they could do it for the right price though.
if you look at cars like the new Yota 86 (or whatever you want to call it), Lotus just can't compete at that end of the market, they could never make that car at that price (with the necessary build quality, backup etc).I think if they go down that route though they have many competitors in what is not actually a profitable segment even for the big boys.
A better alternative I think would be to somehow produce something like the Toyaburu coupe. I still can't see how they could do it for the right price though.
As has been said before, they need to come out with something new, innovative, and niche, as soon as they stray into mainstream, they are screwed.
otolith said:
I think people who buy sports cars go to dinner parties where there are other people who care about their carbon footprint.
I don't think that is the case at all. 
It's all about taxation, cost and the fact that most of the cars are asperational purchases bought with finance. As such, how many times you have to stop for petrol and how much your road tax is are relevant factors.
It's never about wanting to slip one to a panda it's always about money or sex. Everything in life is.
The reason why someone under 30 wants a Ferrari or Porsche etc is that it shows those around them they are successful and it informs women that they will be paid handsomely for fellatio.
The reason someone over 50 buys one is to try and relive their youth when they couldn't afford one.
Lotus' two fundamental problems are that firstly it is not a brand that will ever get you laid and secondly it is not a brand that tells everyone that you are more successful than them.
As such, they will never sell in volume in any way.
They need a cheap 2 seater and a mega priced Esprit and make their real money from selling technology and badge work with other brands as before.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Friday 13th July 09:14
DonkeyApple said:
I don't think that is the case at all.
The reason why someone under 30 wants a Ferrari or Porsche etc is that it shows those around them they are successful and it informs women that they will be paid handsomely for fellatio.
Lotus' two fundamental problems are that firstly it is not a brand that will ever get you laid and secondly it is not a brand that tells everyone that you are more successful than them.
They need a cheap 2 seater and a mega priced Esprit and make their real money from selling technology and badge work with other brands as before.
Well, in Pretty Woman, the Esprit was definitely driven by a successful man who would pay for fellatio....The reason why someone under 30 wants a Ferrari or Porsche etc is that it shows those around them they are successful and it informs women that they will be paid handsomely for fellatio.
Lotus' two fundamental problems are that firstly it is not a brand that will ever get you laid and secondly it is not a brand that tells everyone that you are more successful than them.
They need a cheap 2 seater and a mega priced Esprit and make their real money from selling technology and badge work with other brands as before.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Friday 13th July 09:14
We've been without the Esprit for so long that we've forgotten just how glamourous Lotus was. It really was the British Ferrari (yes, poorly built - but that was synonymous with "British" anyway). Many here say "Lotus was a maker of pocket sportscars, not luxury cars" but Colin Chapman was always aiming for the luxury market, and you could argue that between 1975 (end of the Elan) and 1996 (start of the Elise) they made nothing else.
pycraft said:
Well, in Pretty Woman, the Esprit was definitely driven by a successful man who would pay for fellatio....
We've been without the Esprit for so long that we've forgotten just how glamourous Lotus was. It really was the British Ferrari (yes, poorly built - but that was synonymous with "British" anyway). Many here say "Lotus was a maker of pocket sportscars, not luxury cars" but Colin Chapman was always aiming for the luxury market, and you could argue that between 1975 (end of the Elan) and 1996 (start of the Elise) they made nothing else.
It wasn't his though We've been without the Esprit for so long that we've forgotten just how glamourous Lotus was. It really was the British Ferrari (yes, poorly built - but that was synonymous with "British" anyway). Many here say "Lotus was a maker of pocket sportscars, not luxury cars" but Colin Chapman was always aiming for the luxury market, and you could argue that between 1975 (end of the Elan) and 1996 (start of the Elise) they made nothing else.
It was owned by his little fat, bald accountant.
And the prossie didn't put out.
But you are spot on that they are missing a halo product.
I wonder if Lotus' biggest problem competitor in the future will be McLaren. Lotus will have to put some clear water between the Esprit and MP4-12C, or you have two UK manufacturers with F1 teams and similarly-priced techie supercars.
The counterargument is that it's not hurt Ferrari/Lamborghini, though they've had 50 years of brand differentiation masquerading a bitter emnity. Pagani's not in the same market, and at that end of the market most people will have all the car they want.
However, the current F1 situation means that car manufacturers - McLaren, Ferrari, Merc - are struggling to match the speed and reliabilty of a Lotus. Damn it feels good writing that.
I had hoped a Genii buyout would merge the car and F1 teams, sadly not to be.
The counterargument is that it's not hurt Ferrari/Lamborghini, though they've had 50 years of brand differentiation masquerading a bitter emnity. Pagani's not in the same market, and at that end of the market most people will have all the car they want.
However, the current F1 situation means that car manufacturers - McLaren, Ferrari, Merc - are struggling to match the speed and reliabilty of a Lotus. Damn it feels good writing that.
I had hoped a Genii buyout would merge the car and F1 teams, sadly not to be.
pycraft said:
I wonder if Lotus' biggest problem competitor in the future will be McLaren. Lotus will have to put some clear water between the Esprit and MP4-12C, or you have two UK manufacturers with F1 teams and similarly-priced techie supercars.
The counterargument is that it's not hurt Ferrari/Lamborghini, though they've had 50 years of brand differentiation masquerading a bitter emnity. Pagani's not in the same market, and at that end of the market most people will have all the car they want.
However, the current F1 situation means that car manufacturers - McLaren, Ferrari, Merc - are struggling to match the speed and reliabilty of aLotusRenault. Damn it feels good writing that.
I had hoped a Genii buyout would merge the car and F1 teams, sadly not to be.
here, corrected that for you...The counterargument is that it's not hurt Ferrari/Lamborghini, though they've had 50 years of brand differentiation masquerading a bitter emnity. Pagani's not in the same market, and at that end of the market most people will have all the car they want.
However, the current F1 situation means that car manufacturers - McLaren, Ferrari, Merc - are struggling to match the speed and reliabilty of a
I had hoped a Genii buyout would merge the car and F1 teams, sadly not to be.
That aside, yes, the McLaren MP4-12 is what Lotus should have made, instead of the Evora.
problem now is thay have no chance of making a car that can compete with that (or the 458 etc), and below that place in the market is the 911, R8, etc. which is also far from a soft target.
I think truth be known, they are screwed, 5+ years ago, they could have come up with something in these segments, but the game had moved on big time.
Not even sure there is a market left for them in any segment now....
pycraft said:
I wonder if Lotus' biggest problem competitor in the future will be McLaren. Lotus will have to put some clear water between the Esprit and MP4-12C, or you have two UK manufacturers with F1 teams and similarly-priced techie supercars.
The counterargument is that it's not hurt Ferrari/Lamborghini, though they've had 50 years of brand differentiation masquerading a bitter emnity. Pagani's not in the same market, and at that end of the market most people will have all the car they want.
However, the current F1 situation means that car manufacturers - McLaren, Ferrari, Merc - are struggling to match the speed and reliabilty of a Lotus. Damn it feels good writing that.
I had hoped a Genii buyout would merge the car and F1 teams, sadly not to be.
I'm probably out of date but the images of the proposed Esprit a while back really didn't excite me. The original ones really looked sleek, fast and stylish but I can't imagine the current rendering parking next to a Macca or Fez and not looking clumsy. The counterargument is that it's not hurt Ferrari/Lamborghini, though they've had 50 years of brand differentiation masquerading a bitter emnity. Pagani's not in the same market, and at that end of the market most people will have all the car they want.
However, the current F1 situation means that car manufacturers - McLaren, Ferrari, Merc - are struggling to match the speed and reliabilty of a Lotus. Damn it feels good writing that.
I had hoped a Genii buyout would merge the car and F1 teams, sadly not to be.
Scuffers said:
here, corrected that for you...
Oh, come on, let a man dream.... On the other hand, if only Lotus was as reliable as an overcaffeinated fizzy drink!
I thought the Renault thing just meant that was where they sourced their engines. I mean, before the Renault team were Renault, they made jumpers.
otolith said:
I think people who buy sports cars go to dinner parties where there are other people who care about their carbon footprint.
Yes, at which when the moron who tells me that his Fiat twin air does 78mpg and I point out it does less than my 13 year old Elise sports car, the next topics of conversation will be the unreliability of the EC fuel consumption test and that people shouldn't be so gullable as to believe everything they read and he should really sell his highly polluting inefficient little buzz box if he really cares about carbon emissions...Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff