RE: Lotus: Dead weight lifted or dead man walking?
Discussion
Scuffers said:
pycraft said:
However, the current F1 situation means that car manufacturers - McLaren, Ferrari, Merc - are struggling to match the speed and reliabilty of a LotusRenault. Damn it feels good writing that.
here, corrected that for you...Some interesting sales figures of comparable (prestige non-niche sports) car companies. Rolls thrown in for yuks.
Company; Employees; production (very approximate!)
Lamborghini; 700ish; ca 1500/year
Lotus; 1300ish; ca 2000/year
Rolls; 700ish; ca 2500/year
Aston Martin; 1300ish; ca 4000/year
Maserati; 1300ish; ca 5000/year
Ferrari; 2700ish; ca 6500/year
Porsche; 13,000ish; ca 35000k 911, 35000 Bosxter/Cayman, loads more 4-doors
If Lotus could sell 10% as many cars as Porsche in the 911/Boxstman sectors (against the Evora and Exige/Elise) - the staff proportions - they'd be laughing. But how to you steal 10% Porsche's customers?
Company; Employees; production (very approximate!)
Lamborghini; 700ish; ca 1500/year
Lotus; 1300ish; ca 2000/year
Rolls; 700ish; ca 2500/year
Aston Martin; 1300ish; ca 4000/year
Maserati; 1300ish; ca 5000/year
Ferrari; 2700ish; ca 6500/year
Porsche; 13,000ish; ca 35000k 911, 35000 Bosxter/Cayman, loads more 4-doors
If Lotus could sell 10% as many cars as Porsche in the 911/Boxstman sectors (against the Evora and Exige/Elise) - the staff proportions - they'd be laughing. But how to you steal 10% Porsche's customers?
pycraft said:
Some interesting sales figures of comparable (prestige non-niche sports) car companies. Rolls thrown in for yuks.
Company Employees production (very approximate!)
Lamborghini 700ish ca 1500/year
Lotus 1300ish ca 2000/year
Rolls 700ish ca 2500/year
Aston Martin 1300ish ca 4000/year
Maserati 1300ish ca 5000/year
Ferrari 2700ish ca 6500/year
Porsche 13,000ish ca 35000k 911, 35000 Bosxter/Cayman, loads more 4-doors
If Lotus could sell 10% as many cars as Porsche in the 911/Boxstman sectors (against the Evora and Exige/Elise) - the staff proportions - they'd be laughing. But how to you steal 10% Porsche's customers?
The problem is that Porsche have a global brand, a global network and a reputation for quality and superior performance. Company Employees production (very approximate!)
Lamborghini 700ish ca 1500/year
Lotus 1300ish ca 2000/year
Rolls 700ish ca 2500/year
Aston Martin 1300ish ca 4000/year
Maserati 1300ish ca 5000/year
Ferrari 2700ish ca 6500/year
Porsche 13,000ish ca 35000k 911, 35000 Bosxter/Cayman, loads more 4-doors
If Lotus could sell 10% as many cars as Porsche in the 911/Boxstman sectors (against the Evora and Exige/Elise) - the staff proportions - they'd be laughing. But how to you steal 10% Porsche's customers?
I think if you step out to take them on or to get 10% of their sales you'd be carried out inside of months.
Start at the right level ie small and you can't get the economies of scale needed for good pricing and your multinational parent won't be interested as you're too small.
I love Lotus but they are in an extremely difficult place in the market, a kind of no mans land.
They desperately need the 'killer ap'. a car that looks phenominal and exciting but is cheaper than a 458 yet corners better etc. that's not easy.
I actually think the Noble manages much of this but is double the price it should be.
DonkeyApple said:
pycraft said:
Well, in Pretty Woman, the Esprit was definitely driven by a successful man who would pay for fellatio....
We've been without the Esprit for so long that we've forgotten just how glamourous Lotus was. It really was the British Ferrari (yes, poorly built - but that was synonymous with "British" anyway). Many here say "Lotus was a maker of pocket sportscars, not luxury cars" but Colin Chapman was always aiming for the luxury market, and you could argue that between 1975 (end of the Elan) and 1996 (start of the Elise) they made nothing else.
It wasn't his though We've been without the Esprit for so long that we've forgotten just how glamourous Lotus was. It really was the British Ferrari (yes, poorly built - but that was synonymous with "British" anyway). Many here say "Lotus was a maker of pocket sportscars, not luxury cars" but Colin Chapman was always aiming for the luxury market, and you could argue that between 1975 (end of the Elan) and 1996 (start of the Elise) they made nothing else.
It was owned by his little fat, bald accountant.
And the prossie didn't put out.
But you are spot on that they are missing a halo product.
marshalla said:
And he couldn't "drive stick" - so any halo product which appeals to that market segment is going to have to have an auto.
I would seem that clunge machines need to be auto. It's probably too difficult to change gear while knocking one out over a reflection of yourself. 
crofty1984 said:
Scuffers said:
pycraft said:
However, the current F1 situation means that car manufacturers - McLaren, Ferrari, Merc - are struggling to match the speed and reliabilty of a LotusRenault. Damn it feels good writing that.
here, corrected that for you...and yes, your right, we should be calling it Toleman (Brabham F1 died in 1992 and is totally un-related)
Scuffers said:
That aside, yes, the McLaren MP4-12 is what Lotus should have made, instead of the Evora.
problem now is thay have no chance of making a car that can compete with that (or the 458 etc), and below that place in the market is the 911, R8, etc. which is also far from a soft target.
Actually, I think it could work out well for them - the Evora has been a big learning experience for them, working with the new platform and improving the build process. They know exactly what the MP4-12C is, what it costs and what it delivers for that price. They're in a position to make the decisions about how to compete properly with it.problem now is thay have no chance of making a car that can compete with that (or the 458 etc), and below that place in the market is the 911, R8, etc. which is also far from a soft target.
If, five years ago they'd started on an Esprit and delivered a car that was almost, but not quite what the MP4-12C is, with all the teething problems of the Evora, it would have been a disaster. How do you recover if your halo car is immediately eclipsed by new competition?
Tuna said:
If, five years ago they'd started on an Esprit and delivered a car that was almost, but not quite what the MP4-12C is, with all the teething problems of the Evora, it would have been a disaster. How do you recover if your halo car is immediately eclipsed by new competition?
that kind of depends on how you market it though? it's all about managing expectations...McLaren have hardly had it easy, but seem to be fairing OK....
Scuffers said:
crofty1984 said:
Scuffers said:
pycraft said:
However, the current F1 situation means that car manufacturers - McLaren, Ferrari, Merc - are struggling to match the speed and reliabilty of a LotusRenault. Damn it feels good writing that.
here, corrected that for you...and yes, your right, we should be calling it Toleman (Brabham F1 died in 1992 and is totally un-related)
AllNines said:
So what are you going to call Mercedes then? If you're going to be anal about stupid things, at least be consistent...
well, Honda would be the obvious answer at the moment, they put all the time/effort/money in, Brawn had an exceptional year out of that, then sold to Merc.in a couple of years time, then it would be legitimate to call it a merc as the car will have been clean-sheeted by then.
Renault on the other had lent GenII the money to buy the team off them, (and technically still hold the loan AFAIK?), Lotus then slapped a badge on it, GenII managed to get the name changed, but it still have zero Lotus input aside a badge.
Ask yourself this question, what't the name on the employee's contracts/payslips?
Scuffers said:
that kind of depends on how you market it though? it's all about managing expectations...
What I'm saying is that, not knowing the MP4-12C was coming round the corner, if Lotus had designed and launched the Esprit replacement as (say) a 580bhp car with all the teething problems of the Evora, even if they'd got the marketing exactly right, the Mclaren would have come along and wrecked their one chance of regaining a halo car.Now, they can look at the MP4-12C, with all the good and bad points identified, they can decide how best to compete with it. They can also hopefully put all the experience learned from the Evora into getting the launch car right first time. Before the Evora, they'd not created a genuinely new vehicle for what, 15 years? Now, with the experience fresh in mind, you'd hope they'd be top of their game for taking on the competition.
First to market is a difficult position to be in - you've shown your hand.
Edited by Tuna on Friday 13th July 17:02
Tuna said:
What I'm saying is that, not knowing the MP12-4C was coming round the corner, if Lotus had designed and launched the Esprit replacement as (say) a 580bhp car with all the teething problems of the Evora, even if they'd got the marketing exactly right, the Mclaren would have come along and wrecked their one chance of regaining a halo car.
Now, they can look at the MP12-4C, with all the good and bad points identified, they can decide how best to compete with it. They can also hopefully put all the experience learned from the Evora into getting the launch car right first time. Before the Evora, they'd not created a genuinely new vehicle for what, 15 years? Now, with the experience fresh in mind, you'd hope they'd be top of their game for taking on the competition.
First to market is a difficult position to be in - you've shown your hand.
Ahem, it's the MP4-12C! Now, they can look at the MP12-4C, with all the good and bad points identified, they can decide how best to compete with it. They can also hopefully put all the experience learned from the Evora into getting the launch car right first time. Before the Evora, they'd not created a genuinely new vehicle for what, 15 years? Now, with the experience fresh in mind, you'd hope they'd be top of their game for taking on the competition.
First to market is a difficult position to be in - you've shown your hand.
PastorOfMuppets said:
Tuna said:
What I'm saying is that, not knowing the MP12-4C was coming round the corner, if Lotus had designed and launched the Esprit replacement as (say) a 580bhp car with all the teething problems of the Evora, even if they'd got the marketing exactly right, the Mclaren would have come along and wrecked their one chance of regaining a halo car.
Now, they can look at the MP12-4C, with all the good and bad points identified, they can decide how best to compete with it. They can also hopefully put all the experience learned from the Evora into getting the launch car right first time. Before the Evora, they'd not created a genuinely new vehicle for what, 15 years? Now, with the experience fresh in mind, you'd hope they'd be top of their game for taking on the competition.
First to market is a difficult position to be in - you've shown your hand.
Ahem, it's the MP4-12C! Now, they can look at the MP12-4C, with all the good and bad points identified, they can decide how best to compete with it. They can also hopefully put all the experience learned from the Evora into getting the launch car right first time. Before the Evora, they'd not created a genuinely new vehicle for what, 15 years? Now, with the experience fresh in mind, you'd hope they'd be top of their game for taking on the competition.
First to market is a difficult position to be in - you've shown your hand.
PastorOfMuppets said:
Tuna said:
What I'm saying is that, not knowing the MP4-12C was coming round the corner, if Lotus had designed and launched the Esprit replacement as (say) a 580bhp car with all the teething problems of the Evora, even if they'd got the marketing exactly right, the Mclaren would have come along and wrecked their one chance of regaining a halo car.
Now, they can look at the MP4-12C, with all the good and bad points identified, they can decide how best to compete with it. They can also hopefully put all the experience learned from the Evora into getting the launch car right first time. Before the Evora, they'd not created a genuinely new vehicle for what, 15 years? Now, with the experience fresh in mind, you'd hope they'd be top of their game for taking on the competition.
First to market is a difficult position to be in - you've shown your hand.
Ahem, it's the MP12-4C! Now, they can look at the MP4-12C, with all the good and bad points identified, they can decide how best to compete with it. They can also hopefully put all the experience learned from the Evora into getting the launch car right first time. Before the Evora, they'd not created a genuinely new vehicle for what, 15 years? Now, with the experience fresh in mind, you'd hope they'd be top of their game for taking on the competition.
First to market is a difficult position to be in - you've shown your hand.
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.
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OK, my bad.. blame Friday afternoon in a hot office.
Tuna said:
PastorOfMuppets said:
Tuna said:
What I'm saying is that, not knowing the MP4-12C was coming round the corner, if Lotus had designed and launched the Esprit replacement as (say) a 580bhp car with all the teething problems of the Evora, even if they'd got the marketing exactly right, the Mclaren would have come along and wrecked their one chance of regaining a halo car.
Now, they can look at the MP4-12C, with all the good and bad points identified, they can decide how best to compete with it. They can also hopefully put all the experience learned from the Evora into getting the launch car right first time. Before the Evora, they'd not created a genuinely new vehicle for what, 15 years? Now, with the experience fresh in mind, you'd hope they'd be top of their game for taking on the competition.
First to market is a difficult position to be in - you've shown your hand.
Ahem, it's the MP12-4C! Now, they can look at the MP4-12C, with all the good and bad points identified, they can decide how best to compete with it. They can also hopefully put all the experience learned from the Evora into getting the launch car right first time. Before the Evora, they'd not created a genuinely new vehicle for what, 15 years? Now, with the experience fresh in mind, you'd hope they'd be top of their game for taking on the competition.
First to market is a difficult position to be in - you've shown your hand.
.
.
.
.
.
OK, my bad.. blame Friday afternoon in a hot office.
Like what you did there.toppstuff said:
PastorOfMuppets said:
Tuna said:
What I'm saying is that, not knowing the MP12-4C was coming round the corner, if Lotus had designed and launched the Esprit replacement as (say) a 580bhp car with all the teething problems of the Evora, even if they'd got the marketing exactly right, the Mclaren would have come along and wrecked their one chance of regaining a halo car.
Now, they can look at the MP12-4C, with all the good and bad points identified, they can decide how best to compete with it. They can also hopefully put all the experience learned from the Evora into getting the launch car right first time. Before the Evora, they'd not created a genuinely new vehicle for what, 15 years? Now, with the experience fresh in mind, you'd hope they'd be top of their game for taking on the competition.
First to market is a difficult position to be in - you've shown your hand.
Ahem, it's the MP4-12C! Now, they can look at the MP12-4C, with all the good and bad points identified, they can decide how best to compete with it. They can also hopefully put all the experience learned from the Evora into getting the launch car right first time. Before the Evora, they'd not created a genuinely new vehicle for what, 15 years? Now, with the experience fresh in mind, you'd hope they'd be top of their game for taking on the competition.
First to market is a difficult position to be in - you've shown your hand.
We wont know what Mclaren have achived for a while i dont think, i'm not sure how well the car has sold, but i'l bet the 458 has outsold it massively, it's car to establish Mclaren as a permanent player, rather than occasional vistor to the supercar league, and only time will tell if it has achived that aim
peter450 said:
Do they though?, what have Mclaren achieved exactly? the car is very impressive, but also has a myriad of annoying faults if a thread about it some ago is anything to go by
We wont know what Mclaren have achived for a while i dont think, i'm not sure how well the car has sold, but i'l bet the 458 has outsold it massively, it's car to establish Mclaren as a permanent player, rather than occasional vistor to the supercar league, and only time will tell if it has achived that aim
get real.We wont know what Mclaren have achived for a while i dont think, i'm not sure how well the car has sold, but i'l bet the 458 has outsold it massively, it's car to establish Mclaren as a permanent player, rather than occasional vistor to the supercar league, and only time will tell if it has achived that aim
they have come up with the MP4-12 in less time than Lotus took over the Evora, and yes, you can say they threw money at doing it, but that's kind of missing the point (and also not hugely accurate either).
McLaren have actually not invented much, what they have done is looked about at what's available and put the best of it together.
Ricardo have done the engine, what's Lotus's excuse for not doing this kind of work?
Graziano did the gearbox, once again, what's Lotus's excuse?
Carbo Tech make the tub, once again, what's Lotus's excuse?
suspension - Tenneco/Kinetic, yet again, what's lotus's excuse?
the list goes on....
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