RE: Is VW going to buy Lotus?
Discussion
Twincam16 said:
Sounds like the kind of mentality that would have terminally ill and borderline-terminal patients shot in the head to free up beds in hospitals.
What's wrong with just being realistic with production targets and building as many cars as they know they can sell? Why does everything have to be mass-market?
We're constantly told that capitalism brings choice, but it doesn't. If I had £50k to spend on a car, I'd buy a Lotus Exige, not a Porsche or a BMW, because I like the way they're engineered. I'm sure there are enough people out there like me to sustain a market and who have the requisite funds. But if market-forces are the be-all and end-all of existence, we end up with no small independent car firms, films, record labels, restaurants, clothing companies, TV stations, intelligent drama and documentary, not-for-profit art or subversive comedy - absolutely none of it.
Instead it just gets replaced with lowest-common-denominator, mass-market, shut-yer-face neo-Con, what-the-people-are-assumed-to-want subcultural sludge oozing from every highest-margin-lowest-bidder in every walk of life.
And if I don't like it I'm just told to lump it, or are told that my tastes are affected, or outdated, or that my attitudes are elitist or politically correct.
Capitalism brings choice? My arse. Your brand of soul-denying, hatchet-faced, coldly calculating monetarism merely leads to a world dominated by a handful of homogenised monopolies. And then, ironically, life is closer to that in the former Eastern Bloc, with only a limited number of suppliers for everything and very narrow parameters within that.
I suggest you watch Wall-E. If this weak-should-die attitude continues, that's where we'll end up.
Personally, if products have merit and appeal, even if it's to a minority, then if the motivation's there, they should be saved.
I'm not sure VW would turn Lotus into Seat or Skoda, which seems to be the imnplication in this post and others. They haven't badge-engineered Passats into Bugattis have they? The two car firms they bought out and badge engineered were fWhat's wrong with just being realistic with production targets and building as many cars as they know they can sell? Why does everything have to be mass-market?
We're constantly told that capitalism brings choice, but it doesn't. If I had £50k to spend on a car, I'd buy a Lotus Exige, not a Porsche or a BMW, because I like the way they're engineered. I'm sure there are enough people out there like me to sustain a market and who have the requisite funds. But if market-forces are the be-all and end-all of existence, we end up with no small independent car firms, films, record labels, restaurants, clothing companies, TV stations, intelligent drama and documentary, not-for-profit art or subversive comedy - absolutely none of it.
Instead it just gets replaced with lowest-common-denominator, mass-market, shut-yer-face neo-Con, what-the-people-are-assumed-to-want subcultural sludge oozing from every highest-margin-lowest-bidder in every walk of life.
And if I don't like it I'm just told to lump it, or are told that my tastes are affected, or outdated, or that my attitudes are elitist or politically correct.
Capitalism brings choice? My arse. Your brand of soul-denying, hatchet-faced, coldly calculating monetarism merely leads to a world dominated by a handful of homogenised monopolies. And then, ironically, life is closer to that in the former Eastern Bloc, with only a limited number of suppliers for everything and very narrow parameters within that.
I suggest you watch Wall-E. If this weak-should-die attitude continues, that's where we'll end up.
Personally, if products have merit and appeal, even if it's to a minority, then if the motivation's there, they should be saved.
ked - Skoda and Seat made laughing stock, cack-quality shatmobiles. VW have created two companies, with workforces in their home countries, that make well-engineered and good to drive cars. I'd rather have a Seat Leon Cupra than one of those 1980s Ibizas, and an Octavia or Fabia vRS rather than one of those Rapids (and don't start telling me they are a poor mans 911 just because the engine was in the back - they were fking crap).I don't get all the VW hate - they have just taken s
t companies and made them and their products better, while trying to make a profit. So they share components across the range - so fking what? Some of the switchgear in the Veyron is the same as in my Touareg - doesn't make them the same does it?I suspect that if VW did buy Lotus they would keep the core engineering skills, the chassis engineers, etc, and just implant all the boring s
t (switchgear, interiors etc) from other models. I think the end product would be 1000 times better and might be sustainable longer term - the only downside is the light switches might be from a golf. I have to say, I wouldn't give 2 fks, if the cars drove like Elises. Rant over.kambites said:
10 Pence Short said:
Your freedom of choice is the victim of capitalism in action.
Ultimately it's consumer demand that drives it that way though - if enough people wanted different things from their cars, there would be more different cars (and greater cost). I'm not the only one. 'Alternative' culture in just about every walk of life is massive, and yet totally uncatered for, usually because the proponents of it don't have enough money to 'matter'.
This monopolistic, monetarist version of capitalism is hacking a hell of a lot of people off, and yet for some reason some smug bloke in a suit from the world of corporate finance sneering 'well that's the way it is so live with it' is accepted as an answer.
Well I don't accept it. I've had enough of being worthless.
Twincam16 said:
I'm just absolutely sick and tired of essentially being told that all my various tastes, interests and preferences are 'niche', in fact too 'niche' to bother being catered for at all.
I'm not the only one. 'Alternative' culture in just about every walk of life is massive, and yet totally uncatered for, usually because the proponents of it don't have enough money to 'matter'.
This monopolistic, monetarist version of capitalism is hacking a hell of a lot of people off, and yet for some reason some smug bloke in a suit from the world of corporate finance sneering 'well that's the way it is so live with it' is accepted as an answer.
Well I don't accept it. I've had enough of being worthless.
Not enough people are prepared to spend the money you are on the product you want. Not enough products get sold and no profit is made. Product cannot be made at a loss just for the small number of people who might want it.I'm not the only one. 'Alternative' culture in just about every walk of life is massive, and yet totally uncatered for, usually because the proponents of it don't have enough money to 'matter'.
This monopolistic, monetarist version of capitalism is hacking a hell of a lot of people off, and yet for some reason some smug bloke in a suit from the world of corporate finance sneering 'well that's the way it is so live with it' is accepted as an answer.
Well I don't accept it. I've had enough of being worthless.
It's tough luck.
As an aside- how many new Lotus products have you bought?
Twincam16 said:
I'm just absolutely sick and tired of essentially being told that all my various tastes, interests and preferences are 'niche', in fact too 'niche' to bother being catered for at all.
I'm not the only one. 'Alternative' culture in just about every walk of life is massive, and yet totally uncatered for, usually because the proponents of it don't have enough money to 'matter'.
This monopolistic, monetarist version of capitalism is hacking a hell of a lot of people off, and yet for some reason some smug bloke in a suit from the world of corporate finance sneering 'well that's the way it is so live with it' is accepted as an answer.
Well I don't accept it. I've had enough of being worthless.
Same goes for a lot of industries brother. Afterall we all know what happened to the butchers and green grocers.I'm not the only one. 'Alternative' culture in just about every walk of life is massive, and yet totally uncatered for, usually because the proponents of it don't have enough money to 'matter'.
This monopolistic, monetarist version of capitalism is hacking a hell of a lot of people off, and yet for some reason some smug bloke in a suit from the world of corporate finance sneering 'well that's the way it is so live with it' is accepted as an answer.
Well I don't accept it. I've had enough of being worthless.
Its not the evil b
d in the suit that causes the problem though. Its the consumer. Consumers want cheap. They want to be the same. They don't care about a products engineering prowess or heritage. They don't care about environmental or social impact. They want it to have bluetooth and a car designed in part by Victoria Beckham.The only thing that huge boards of companies are doing is giving the people exactly what they want. Fasionable, souless tat on the cheap at the expense of some poor b
d working for tuppence and ha'penny. The only hope that exists for the motor industry, or society in general is education. And therein lies the great irony, because we don't value education in our society and we're unwilling to invest in it.
Don't worry though. Eventually we'll get a class divide so wide the system should reset for another hundred years or so.
Edited by Prof Prolapse on Thursday 2nd August 11:53
kambites said:
Ultimately it's consumer demand that drives it that way though - if enough people wanted different things from their cars, there would be more different cars (and greater cost).
Um, between:- big corporations 'engineering' customer preferences to serve their own bottom lines (taking $15,000 pick up trucks, plonk station wagon bodies on top of 'em and sell them as $40,000 SUVs to hapless punters thinking they'll be the Commanders on their suburban commute because they're sitting high up, among others),
- the European Commission, national governments and non-govenmental organisations as diverse as BRAKE and EuroNCAPtelling me what I need on my next car to protect me from myself (acting on the lobby of the same large industrialists)
- emissions/fuel efficiency regulations and taxes devised on the basis of rubbish and irrelevant pseudo-science sh*te just because it's obviously beyond the EU's remit to levy fair and equal taxes on energy across the board, no matter where in Europe I am and what fuel I'm using (which would make for an equal playing field for all)
- government bailouts and scrappage schemes to keep failing automtove giants afloat because quite obvious it's better to have 10,000 jobs in car production paid for by us all (instead of just the people who actually buy cars) than have the same number of people working in the aftersales/aftermarket business who actually provide a service customers are willing to allow them a decent return on)
- and media uncritically regurgitating whatever 5hite is being spouted by all the aformentioned
I can't help thinking my freedom of choice as a consumer is a bit impaired.
10 Pence Short said:
Twincam16 said:
I'm just absolutely sick and tired of essentially being told that all my various tastes, interests and preferences are 'niche', in fact too 'niche' to bother being catered for at all.
I'm not the only one. 'Alternative' culture in just about every walk of life is massive, and yet totally uncatered for, usually because the proponents of it don't have enough money to 'matter'.
This monopolistic, monetarist version of capitalism is hacking a hell of a lot of people off, and yet for some reason some smug bloke in a suit from the world of corporate finance sneering 'well that's the way it is so live with it' is accepted as an answer.
Well I don't accept it. I've had enough of being worthless.
Not enough people are prepared to spend the money you are on the product you want. Not enough products get sold and no profit is made. Product cannot be made at a loss just for the small number of people who might want it.I'm not the only one. 'Alternative' culture in just about every walk of life is massive, and yet totally uncatered for, usually because the proponents of it don't have enough money to 'matter'.
This monopolistic, monetarist version of capitalism is hacking a hell of a lot of people off, and yet for some reason some smug bloke in a suit from the world of corporate finance sneering 'well that's the way it is so live with it' is accepted as an answer.
Well I don't accept it. I've had enough of being worthless.
It's tough luck.
As an aside- how many new Lotus products have you bought?
I've bought a couple of Lotus-engineered cars though, and driven several Lotuses, and there are aspects common to all of them that I see as the pinnacle of driver involvement. I see a Lotus as the natural progression from an MR2 and that's my plan.
I do think Lotus needs to build cheaper cars though. Shouldn't mean they should be killed off! I think they should take a look at what makes Ginetta and Caterham so successful and follow their lead. However, I also reckon the Exige V6 has the potential to be a big seller, as has the Evora convertible and GTE, and I've been looking forward to the new Esprit for years - as have many people who I suspect will have the funds for one.
900T-R said:
kambites said:
Ultimately it's consumer demand that drives it that way though - if enough people wanted different things from their cars, there would be more different cars (and greater cost).
Um, between:- big corporations 'engineering' customer preferences to serve their own bottom lines (taking $15,000 pick up trucks, plonk station wagon bodies on top of 'em and sell them as $40,000 SUVs to hapless punters thinking they'll be the Commanders on their suburban commute because they're sitting high up, among others),
- the European Commission, national governments and non-govenmental organisations as diverse as BRAKE and EuroNCAPtelling me what I need on my next car to protect me from myself (acting on the lobby of the same large industrialists)
- emissions/fuel efficiency regulations and taxes devised on the basis of rubbish and irrelevant pseudo-science sh*te just because it's obviously beyond the EU's remit to levy fair and equal taxes on energy across the board, no matter where in Europe I am and what fuel I'm using (which would make for an equal playing field for all)
- government bailouts and scrappage schemes to keep failing automtove giants afloat because quite obvious it's better to have 10,000 jobs in car production paid for by us all (instead of just the people who actually buy cars) than have the same number of people working in the aftersales/aftermarket business who actually provide a service customers are willing to allow them a decent return on)
- and media uncritically regurgitating whatever 5hite is being spouted by all the aformentioned
I can't help thinking my freedom of choice as a consumer is a bit impaired.
what 'e said.It's interesting to compare the car market with the motorcycle market. There really is a bike for absolutely every rider and every pocket.
However, you have to undergo more education to become a biker.
10 Pence Short said:
Not enough people are prepared to spend the money you are on the product you want. Not enough products get sold and no profit is made. Product cannot be made at a loss just for the small number of people who might want it.
So basically, in your opinion, if we haven't got the money to influence the market we should just accept we're nothing more than the st on big corporations' shoes?What do you like? And I mean really like - not a passing 'I like that' agreement with someone else's taste - the sort of things in terms of music, cars, films, TV, lifestyle etc that you'd want to do regardless of affordability.
I'm guessing you either have terminally mainstream tastes and represent the average marketing-man's dream, or you feel as worthless and ignored as me but the defeatism in the face of it all has made you grudgingly accept the corporate status quo to the point where you've started defending it.
Prof Prolapse said:
Don't worry though. Eventually we'll get a class divide so wide the system should reset for another hundred years or so.
We've already got it. Politicians have alternated between appeasing it and demonising it without really addressing it for the past 30-odd years.Twincam16 said:
So basically, in your opinion, if we haven't got the money to influence the market we should just accept we're nothing more than the st on big corporations' shoes?
What do you like? And I mean really like - not a passing 'I like that' agreement with someone else's taste - the sort of things in terms of music, cars, films, TV, lifestyle etc that you'd want to do regardless of affordability.
I'm guessing you either have terminally mainstream tastes and represent the average marketing-man's dream, or you feel as worthless and ignored as me but the defeatism in the face of it all has made you grudgingly accept the corporate status quo to the point where you've started defending it.
I don't like it any more than you do, but I'm a realist who understands that companies cannot run on fresh air.t on big corporations' shoes?What do you like? And I mean really like - not a passing 'I like that' agreement with someone else's taste - the sort of things in terms of music, cars, films, TV, lifestyle etc that you'd want to do regardless of affordability.
I'm guessing you either have terminally mainstream tastes and represent the average marketing-man's dream, or you feel as worthless and ignored as me but the defeatism in the face of it all has made you grudgingly accept the corporate status quo to the point where you've started defending it.
Society as a whole places greater emphasis on price and convenience than you or I. In terms of cars, the number of people who see them as white goods greatly exceeds the number who have a fascination with them. These people are where the money is in producing white goods.
Companies such as Porsche, Ferrari and the hyper-niche producers such as Pagini are able to sell their products at such high pricing that the margin covers the low numbers. Mass producers make low margin but make good profit by virtue of high unit sales. Lotus sits in a position of having low profit per unit (in pounds, shillings and pence) and low unit sales.
Do I believe an independent Lotus can move into either high volume low margin production or high margin low volume in a reasonable time frame? I'm not at all convinced.
Hence my comments such as 'tough'. It's not that I disagree with your ire, but I am not naive enough to believe in this case it's likely to be any different.
Prof Prolapse said:
The only thing that huge boards of companies are doing is giving the people exactly what they want. Fasionable, souless tat on the cheap at the expense of some poor bd working for tuppence and ha'penny.
The only hope that exists for the motor industry, or society in general is education. And therein lies the great irony, because we don't value education in our society and we're unwilling to invest in it.
Don't worry though. Eventually we'll get a class divide so wide the system should reset for another hundred years or so.
Are you Billy Bragg in disguise? We're not in the industrial revolution now fella - get over it.d working for tuppence and ha'penny. The only hope that exists for the motor industry, or society in general is education. And therein lies the great irony, because we don't value education in our society and we're unwilling to invest in it.
Don't worry though. Eventually we'll get a class divide so wide the system should reset for another hundred years or so.
Edited by Prof Prolapse on Thursday 2nd August 11:53
Prof Prolapse said:
Jesus wept. Read it again and if you can't keep up, don't participate.
The only thing Mr Bragg and I have in common is that neither of us can play the guitar very well.
So whats your poor bThe only thing Mr Bragg and I have in common is that neither of us can play the guitar very well.
d working for tuppence hapenny comment all about then? Not, I think, a comment that modern car factory workers would identify with. Certainly not those of VW, who are very highly paid.Pretty sure I can keep up with the thread Billy.
bqf said:
Prof Prolapse said:
Jesus wept. Read it again and if you can't keep up, don't participate.
The only thing Mr Bragg and I have in common is that neither of us can play the guitar very well.
So whats your poor bThe only thing Mr Bragg and I have in common is that neither of us can play the guitar very well.
d working for tuppence hapenny comment all about then? Not, I think, a comment that modern car factory workers would identify with. Certainly not those of VW, who are very highly paid.Pretty sure I can keep up with the thread Billy.
The low cost workforce is essential to this. You're right it doesn't apply to most assembly line workers, technicians etc. but where do you think the parts come from? All the plastics, rubbers, polyers, forges, pressing all made in the heartlands of Europe?
We could start talking about the moral issues but I'm really not interested in taking it further. I'm just making the point that the consumer drives the process. Not the boardroom.
So the people who have f
ked the motor industry, are the motorists. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff