RE: Lotus five-car future is canned
Discussion
Tuna said:
I've always seen Lotus as a company that comes up with clever ways to cut their cloth. The Elise was brilliant for what it left out, and whilst their cars have often been a little agricultural, they've been perfect where it's important for driver satisfaction.
If you're asking whether Lotus are capable of making a car that is all about showing off immense attention to detail and technical flourish, then no, they're not. They're not McLaren and never should be. But that's not the only way to deliver a car that is a pleasure to own and drive. The criticisms of the McLaren come from people who don't care for their approach, which is probably unjust, but reflects that there are different priorities.
At the moment the new Exige is being very favourably compared to the 911, but the two are really vastly different cars that appeal in different ways. The bonus is that Lotus' need to focus on what they do best produces a car that's twenty grand cheaper - another reason to buy the car built in Norfolk. Can Lotus produce a car like McLaren or Porsche? No, and nor should they. The Elise wasn't 'like' the MX-5, Boxter or any other competitor and didn't need to be to continue selling well for many years. I really don't think the market has changed so much that there's only one way to deliver a fantastic car.
Good post Tuna! If you're asking whether Lotus are capable of making a car that is all about showing off immense attention to detail and technical flourish, then no, they're not. They're not McLaren and never should be. But that's not the only way to deliver a car that is a pleasure to own and drive. The criticisms of the McLaren come from people who don't care for their approach, which is probably unjust, but reflects that there are different priorities.
At the moment the new Exige is being very favourably compared to the 911, but the two are really vastly different cars that appeal in different ways. The bonus is that Lotus' need to focus on what they do best produces a car that's twenty grand cheaper - another reason to buy the car built in Norfolk. Can Lotus produce a car like McLaren or Porsche? No, and nor should they. The Elise wasn't 'like' the MX-5, Boxter or any other competitor and didn't need to be to continue selling well for many years. I really don't think the market has changed so much that there's only one way to deliver a fantastic car.
Tuna said:
Scuffers said:
Look at the McLaren, are Lotus capable of making that kind of car?
I've always seen Lotus as a company that comes up with clever ways to cut their cloth. The Elise was brilliant for what it left out, and whilst their cars have often been a little agricultural, they've been perfect where it's important for driver satisfaction.the problem here is the world has moved on a lot in 15 years, people are not prepared to pay big money for 'quirky' cars (or at least not enough people with money).
Lotus need to do something innovative, like the Elise was 15 years ago, just bolting more bit's on it is not the answer.
the Caterham/Radical/Westfield market is not big enough to keep Lotus alive, they can't do mass production and challenge Porsche/Audi, so exactly what does that leave?
the Evora's problem is that good as it may be, it's not £70K good and it still have issues with materials/build/practicality.
Yes, the Exige S is getting good press (although so did the Evora..) the issue is will enough people buy them to make it viable? they need to shift 3,000+ a year as a bare minimum, and I am strugging to see that kind of market for it (at it's current price point).
The interesting facts are that Lotus cannot compete at the bottom with the likes of the MX5. There is a reason why it sells so many and Lotus is a tiny firm that cannot compete on any grounds against those reasons.
At the top end of the market they can't compete against a Lambo, Fezza, Macca etc. no one will pay huge wedge for the Lotus product and image at this price points or even the price of a second hand Fezza etc.
If Lotus can deliver 911T performance AR Boxster prices then they have a product that will sell. They can't sell Boxster performance at Boxster prices or 911T performance at 911T prices.
Re engine: absolute folly to build their own. Company too small. Plus, company has decades of history of using other engines.
Do DRB want Lotus? Big big question.
Just where does a loss making, niche, all scale performance car company fit into the DRB business model?
The reality is that it doesn't.
Where does it benefit DRB to finance the sunk 200m an plough an additional 200m into a company that doesn't make a profit and doesn't have a competitive product and doesn't really know where it is going or what it is?
Personally, I think this is all the window dressing of a seller and that another company will find greater value in bringing Lotus on in the market.
At the top end of the market they can't compete against a Lambo, Fezza, Macca etc. no one will pay huge wedge for the Lotus product and image at this price points or even the price of a second hand Fezza etc.
If Lotus can deliver 911T performance AR Boxster prices then they have a product that will sell. They can't sell Boxster performance at Boxster prices or 911T performance at 911T prices.
Re engine: absolute folly to build their own. Company too small. Plus, company has decades of history of using other engines.
Do DRB want Lotus? Big big question.
Just where does a loss making, niche, all scale performance car company fit into the DRB business model?
The reality is that it doesn't.
Where does it benefit DRB to finance the sunk 200m an plough an additional 200m into a company that doesn't make a profit and doesn't have a competitive product and doesn't really know where it is going or what it is?
Personally, I think this is all the window dressing of a seller and that another company will find greater value in bringing Lotus on in the market.
ESOG said:
Tuna said:
I've always seen Lotus as a company that comes up with clever ways to cut their cloth. The Elise was brilliant for what it left out, and whilst their cars have often been a little agricultural, they've been perfect where it's important for driver satisfaction.
If you're asking whether Lotus are capable of making a car that is all about showing off immense attention to detail and technical flourish, then no, they're not. They're not McLaren and never should be. But that's not the only way to deliver a car that is a pleasure to own and drive. The criticisms of the McLaren come from people who don't care for their approach, which is probably unjust, but reflects that there are different priorities.
At the moment the new Exige is being very favourably compared to the 911, but the two are really vastly different cars that appeal in different ways. The bonus is that Lotus' need to focus on what they do best produces a car that's twenty grand cheaper - another reason to buy the car built in Norfolk. Can Lotus produce a car like McLaren or Porsche? No, and nor should they. The Elise wasn't 'like' the MX-5, Boxter or any other competitor and didn't need to be to continue selling well for many years. I really don't think the market has changed so much that there's only one way to deliver a fantastic car.
Good post Tuna! If you're asking whether Lotus are capable of making a car that is all about showing off immense attention to detail and technical flourish, then no, they're not. They're not McLaren and never should be. But that's not the only way to deliver a car that is a pleasure to own and drive. The criticisms of the McLaren come from people who don't care for their approach, which is probably unjust, but reflects that there are different priorities.
At the moment the new Exige is being very favourably compared to the 911, but the two are really vastly different cars that appeal in different ways. The bonus is that Lotus' need to focus on what they do best produces a car that's twenty grand cheaper - another reason to buy the car built in Norfolk. Can Lotus produce a car like McLaren or Porsche? No, and nor should they. The Elise wasn't 'like' the MX-5, Boxter or any other competitor and didn't need to be to continue selling well for many years. I really don't think the market has changed so much that there's only one way to deliver a fantastic car.
Also good to stress how the MX5, despite deliberately resembling an Elan, isn't like a Lotus in spirit. It's probably closer to the MGB.
To those people who keep saying Lotus should 'build something in the spirit of the Elan' - If you were to transpose the Elan of the Sixties into the present day, you'd be looking at a £40k composite-bodied screamer with something like a Millington Diamond engine in it, capable of outrunning a Jaguar XK, a track-day car to most intents and purposes, but with the welcome surprise of a fully-trimmed luxury cockpit and suspension that didn't try to shatter your teeth. The original Europa took a similar approach, but was mid-engined and a good deal cheaper.
If you were to transpose the Lotus range from the 'glory days' of that swapover period circa 1975, it'd look something like this:
Europa -> Elise
Europa Twin Cam/Special -> Elise S
Elan -> Exige
Eclat -> Evora +2
Esprit -> Evora GTE
Forthcoming Essex Turbo Esprit -> Forthcoming new Esprit.
Lotus is closer to its roots than you'd think. In fact the least 'Lotusy' Lotus was probably the M100 Elan, which was their attempt to counter the MX5, and it probably cost them more money per car than anything they've built before or since.
I worry that this plan will just see Lotus continue to tread water and ultimately fail. They need a big change in strategy in order to survive and grow. Market for stripped out raw cars like the Elise is extremely limited and a new Esprit won't save them. They need more volume to get a return on the investment and more volume means more model variants.
The fact that Aston are struggling illustrates just how tough it is for a non-mainstream manufacturer to compete in the global market.
Oh and controversially, they will need a saloon and probably SUV to survive and grow. Sacrilegious maybe but you have to build the cars for what the market want and those are the cars that the growth markets are demanding, namely China.
Regards,
MyCC.
The fact that Aston are struggling illustrates just how tough it is for a non-mainstream manufacturer to compete in the global market.
Oh and controversially, they will need a saloon and probably SUV to survive and grow. Sacrilegious maybe but you have to build the cars for what the market want and those are the cars that the growth markets are demanding, namely China.
Regards,
MyCC.
MyCC said:
Oh and controversially, they will need a saloon and probably SUV to survive and grow. Sacrilegious maybe but you have to build the cars for what the market want and those are the cars that the growth markets are demanding, namely China.
Regards,
MyCC.
They can't afford to do that convincingly though. For Lotus, engineering a sports car merely requires a variation on the VVA platform they already have, but a saloon that has to take on the BMW 5-series or a Porsche Cayenne-style SUV? It'd get panned. Those are classes of cars where interiors are analysed to a stupid extent, and in China they actually want off-road ability as the roads are so bad. It's a totally different market that should be left to the people who know what they're doing.Regards,
MyCC.
Lotus's best way of marketing to the Chinese and Indians is through F1.
Twincam16 said:
They can't afford to do that convincingly though. For Lotus, engineering a sports car merely requires a variation on the VVA platform they already have, but a saloon that has to take on the BMW 5-series or a Porsche Cayenne-style SUV? It'd get panned. Those are classes of cars where interiors are analysed to a stupid extent, and in China they actually want off-road ability as the roads are so bad. It's a totally different market that should be left to the people who know what they're doing.
Lotus's best way of marketing to the Chinese and Indians is through F1.
The real problem is just how many units must they sell a year in order to claw back the several hundred million investment, cover the funding of that investment and also start paying its way while also investing in the future?Lotus's best way of marketing to the Chinese and Indians is through F1.
What really doesn't make sense is the most elemental of maths that can't show any company selling suffient performance car units to cover anywhere near that kind of cost?
DonkeyApple said:
The real problem is just how many units must they sell a year in order to claw back the several hundred million investment, cover the funding of that investment and also start paying its way while also investing in the future?
I don't think it has to cost several hundred million. One of the reasons for the Lotus chassis technology is that they don't have to invest in the sort of enormously expensive tooling used to make conventional platforms. VW go in for platform sharing because it costs them so much to develop a floor pan that can be manufactured in vast numbers and assembled on an automated line. Lotus have a bag of bits put together by a bunch of blokes in a shed. In terms of investment to make a car, the costs are minuscule compared with mainstream manufacturing, but the consequence is the labour and time costs for producing each individual car are higher.There are fixed costs in meeting legislation, but full crash testing requires 'only' half a dozen cars and these days happens fairly late in the development programme due to extensive simulation. With their existing consultancy work, they also have the advantage of having a lot of the skilled technicians 'paid for', reducing the costs of bringing in specialists for chunks of the work.
Lotus have a lot of tricks they can use to shorten and simplify development cycles - precisely because they don't plan to sell millions of cars. That flexibility is something a major manufacturer just cannot replicate without setting up an entirely new production facility (which is why Murray's iStream is gaining interest). It seems to me they should be taking advantage of that flexibility, rather than replicating the major manufacturer's behaviour, where each car has to be committed to for an entire generation and an intended production run of hundreds of thousands.
Tuna said:
DonkeyApple said:
The real problem is just how many units must they sell a year in order to claw back the several hundred million investment, cover the funding of that investment and also start paying its way while also investing in the future?
I don't think it has to cost several hundred million. One of the reasons for the Lotus chassis technology is that they don't have to invest in the sort of enormously expensive tooling used to make conventional platforms. VW go in for platform sharing because it costs them so much to develop a floor pan that can be manufactured in vast numbers and assembled on an automated line. Lotus have a bag of bits put together by a bunch of blokes in a shed. In terms of investment to make a car, the costs are minuscule compared with mainstream manufacturing, but the consequence is the labour and time costs for producing each individual car are higher.There are fixed costs in meeting legislation, but full crash testing requires 'only' half a dozen cars and these days happens fairly late in the development programme due to extensive simulation. With their existing consultancy work, they also have the advantage of having a lot of the skilled technicians 'paid for', reducing the costs of bringing in specialists for chunks of the work.
Lotus have a lot of tricks they can use to shorten and simplify development cycles - precisely because they don't plan to sell millions of cars. That flexibility is something a major manufacturer just cannot replicate without setting up an entirely new production facility (which is why Murray's iStream is gaining interest). It seems to me they should be taking advantage of that flexibility, rather than replicating the major manufacturer's behaviour, where each car has to be committed to for an entire generation and an intended production run of hundreds of thousands.
Lotus secured a £270m facility from Proton at the outset of the DB era and has spent £200m of this.
Apparently, DRB have put in a further £100m this year and plan an additional £100m next year.
This would appear to suggest that £300 to £400 million has been spent to deliver zero sales of any significance or any truly new product to date?
Whatever the actual number, whether lower or higher it clearly raises a very big question which is just how does Lotus plan to sell enough units in the niche sportscar sector with enough margin to ever recover any of that money?
Twincam16 said:
MyCC said:
Oh and controversially, they will need a saloon and probably SUV to survive and grow. Sacrilegious maybe but you have to build the cars for what the market want and those are the cars that the growth markets are demanding, namely China.
Regards,
MyCC.
They can't afford to do that convincingly though. For Lotus, engineering a sports car merely requires a variation on the VVA platform they already have, but a saloon that has to take on the BMW 5-series or a Porsche Cayenne-style SUV? It'd get panned. Those are classes of cars where interiors are analysed to a stupid extent, and in China they actually want off-road ability as the roads are so bad. It's a totally different market that should be left to the people who know what they're doing.Regards,
MyCC.
Lotus's best way of marketing to the Chinese and Indians is through F1.
That is why Bahar's plans had 'some' merit.
Best post I've seen for a while, just because some flash guy comes in from Ferrari in his designer suit and big Ferrari ideas doesn't mena some small specialist car producer from a little town in Norfolk can suddenly 'morph' into a Buggati, Porsche or Ferrari type of company over night! It is good though that Mr Bah-ha-ha was sussed out in time before he took Lotus under completely, just now it seems that there are enough rescue boats hovering around willing to consider saving this famous British marque, good luck LOTUS and RIP Mr Chapman.
juansolo said:
"We're told quality is the new mantra, making sure every car is spot on. "Lotus believes the best way to improve its profile to produce great cars and ensure fantastic feedback," says our source."
This is the single best thing I've heard come out of Lotus for years. Bravo. Finally this has been acknowledged and they might actually do something about it if they want to survive. Which is what this is about, not being the next Ferrari/Porsche FFS, one step at a time! Then they can be Lotus on their own merit.
This is the single best thing I've heard come out of Lotus for years. Bravo. Finally this has been acknowledged and they might actually do something about it if they want to survive. Which is what this is about, not being the next Ferrari/Porsche FFS, one step at a time! Then they can be Lotus on their own merit.
There's a lot of talk of big power outputs and V8s here. Doesn't sound very Lotus.
Given the Esprit is delayed, the market will have moved on slightly and should be in a place to accept an electric drive range extender. This is squarely in Lotus DNA territory - it would have to be light, cutting edge tech and have excellent handling. The engineering challenge of a hybrid to manage the weight and unconventional power delivery is just the kind of thing you'd trust Lotus engineering with. It would also differentiate from the competition, which it seems we all agree should not be taken on directly.
Getting a bit of money in the door would also help, so in addition to milking and evolving the current range, I agree that some tuned version of other manufacturer's cars would be worth considering. Probably two - one that would blow your socks off with how great it is to drive, and another that has something of a humorous element to it. For the former I reckon a "Lotus GT-86/BRZ" could be interesting - it's already an excellent handling car, so imagine what Lotus could do with it. For the latter, one of the middle of the road SUVs could be funny.
Given the Esprit is delayed, the market will have moved on slightly and should be in a place to accept an electric drive range extender. This is squarely in Lotus DNA territory - it would have to be light, cutting edge tech and have excellent handling. The engineering challenge of a hybrid to manage the weight and unconventional power delivery is just the kind of thing you'd trust Lotus engineering with. It would also differentiate from the competition, which it seems we all agree should not be taken on directly.
Getting a bit of money in the door would also help, so in addition to milking and evolving the current range, I agree that some tuned version of other manufacturer's cars would be worth considering. Probably two - one that would blow your socks off with how great it is to drive, and another that has something of a humorous element to it. For the former I reckon a "Lotus GT-86/BRZ" could be interesting - it's already an excellent handling car, so imagine what Lotus could do with it. For the latter, one of the middle of the road SUVs could be funny.
eein said:
There's a lot of talk of big power outputs and V8s here. Doesn't sound very Lotus.
Given the Esprit is delayed, the market will have moved on slightly and should be in a place to accept an electric drive range extender. This is squarely in Lotus DNA territory - it would have to be light, cutting edge tech and have excellent handling. The engineering challenge of a hybrid to manage the weight and unconventional power delivery is just the kind of thing you'd trust Lotus engineering with. It would also differentiate from the competition, which it seems we all agree should not be taken on directly.
Getting a bit of money in the door would also help, so in addition to milking and evolving the current range, I agree that some tuned version of other manufacturer's cars would be worth considering. Probably two - one that would blow your socks off with how great it is to drive, and another that has something of a humorous element to it. For the former I reckon a "Lotus GT-86/BRZ" could be interesting - it's already an excellent handling car, so imagine what Lotus could do with it. For the latter, one of the middle of the road SUVs could be funny.
That's a possibility. They've actually tuned an SUV before. Pity about the name though:Given the Esprit is delayed, the market will have moved on slightly and should be in a place to accept an electric drive range extender. This is squarely in Lotus DNA territory - it would have to be light, cutting edge tech and have excellent handling. The engineering challenge of a hybrid to manage the weight and unconventional power delivery is just the kind of thing you'd trust Lotus engineering with. It would also differentiate from the competition, which it seems we all agree should not be taken on directly.
Getting a bit of money in the door would also help, so in addition to milking and evolving the current range, I agree that some tuned version of other manufacturer's cars would be worth considering. Probably two - one that would blow your socks off with how great it is to drive, and another that has something of a humorous element to it. For the former I reckon a "Lotus GT-86/BRZ" could be interesting - it's already an excellent handling car, so imagine what Lotus could do with it. For the latter, one of the middle of the road SUVs could be funny.
The Isuzu Lotus Bighorn. Lotus set up the steering and suspension (and on petrol models, the induction gear) to make it better to drive on the road. Sold quite well in the Far East IIRC.
I quite like the idea of a Lotus hot-hatch myself. Not merely a Lotus-badged, Lotus-tuned thing, but a completely rebodied car in the mould of these new 'boutique hatchbacks' - MINI, Alfa Mito, Vauxhall Adam, Fiat 500, Aston Martin Cygnet etc - but with absolutely scorching performance.
Rather than being some doe-eyed 'retro' thing, it could be a forward-looking cross between an M100 Elan (the FWD turbo, viceless handling bit) and a 500-series Elite (the full four-seater, futuristic-looking, hatchback bit).
It would need a completely 'Lotus' identity to work, rather than a 'by Lotus' badge. It could be based on a Proton Satria Neo or Gen-2, its performance upgrades could borrow heavily from the rallying or BTCC programmes, I'm thinking a three-door semi-coupe shape somewhere between a VW Scirocco and a Volvo C30. Low nose, high tail, recognisable Lotus 'face' and an interior that nods to the bare-aluminium aesthetic of the Elise but is comfortable and spacious enough for people to consider using as a practical family car.
Reading the reviews of the Lotus-Protons, they are praised for their looks, reliability and driving manners, but criticised for their lack of kit, low interior quality and middling engine performance. The thorough Lotus overhaul could completely address all of these things, and wouldn't cost Lotus that much. It'd appear to be (and would be to all intents and purposes) a completely new car, with all aspects changed by Lotus in some way, and yet the expensive bits that need to pass emissions and crash-protection legislation come ready-made in a crate from Malaysia. Good moneyspinner for Lotus that would tap into a real growth area, especially in the European market where it seems to have lost ground.
I quite like the idea of it being called the Elite, actually. Lotus reserve that name for groundbreaking cars (glassfibre monococque, then full four-seater low-drag luxury GT), and for Lotus this would be a groundbreaking car.
Twincam16 said:
I quite like the idea of a Lotus hot-hatch myself. Not merely a Lotus-badged, Lotus-tuned thing, but a completely rebodied car in the mould of these new 'boutique hatchbacks' - MINI, Alfa Mito, Vauxhall Adam, Fiat 500, Aston Martin Cygnet etc - but with absolutely scorching performance.
Rather than being some doe-eyed 'retro' thing, it could be a forward-looking cross between an M100 Elan (the FWD turbo, viceless handling bit) and a 500-series Elite (the full four-seater, futuristic-looking, hatchback bit).
It would need a completely 'Lotus' identity to work, rather than a 'by Lotus' badge. It could be based on a Proton Satria Neo or Gen-2, its performance upgrades could borrow heavily from the rallying or BTCC programmes, I'm thinking a three-door semi-coupe shape somewhere between a VW Scirocco and a Volvo C30. Low nose, high tail, recognisable Lotus 'face' and an interior that nods to the bare-aluminium aesthetic of the Elise but is comfortable and spacious enough for people to consider using as a practical family car.
To avoid lots of cost, could they knock up some sort of compact shooting brake hot hatch thing using their existing 'modular architecture'? I know it initially conjures up horrible images, but with a bit of good design an Elise shooting brake?Rather than being some doe-eyed 'retro' thing, it could be a forward-looking cross between an M100 Elan (the FWD turbo, viceless handling bit) and a 500-series Elite (the full four-seater, futuristic-looking, hatchback bit).
It would need a completely 'Lotus' identity to work, rather than a 'by Lotus' badge. It could be based on a Proton Satria Neo or Gen-2, its performance upgrades could borrow heavily from the rallying or BTCC programmes, I'm thinking a three-door semi-coupe shape somewhere between a VW Scirocco and a Volvo C30. Low nose, high tail, recognisable Lotus 'face' and an interior that nods to the bare-aluminium aesthetic of the Elise but is comfortable and spacious enough for people to consider using as a practical family car.
Inhouse designed and built engine vs externally sourced - there are pros and cons, the outcome ultimately depends on resources available and objective performance required, for 4.7lt, 600hp and 9000rpm, with any sort of reliability, I doubt Lotus could deliver.
The Evora GTE should have been the £70k Evora all along, with 400hp. Instead it is priced at £100k meaning any Esprit needs to be competing in price and performance with cars in the £150-£200k market - a very tough order.
I dont think that Lotus could produce an item to rival the MX5 now, not at < £25k, it is such a well rounded little car that has evolved and is pumped out at 1000s per month. Lotus need to stick with, evolve and improve on their niche market - making excellent drivers cars.
Good luck Lotus!!!!!!
DonkeyApple said:
Lotus secured a £270m facility from Proton at the outset of the DB era and has spent £200m of this.
Apparently, DRB have put in a further £100m this year and plan an additional £100m next year.
I'm not sure about the DRB investment - was under the impression that they've 'guaranteed' the existing debts, rather than put in more money. As for the Proton investment, it seemed that a large part of that was spent on infrastructure: everything from the test track to the production and design facilities, sponsorship of various teams, promotion, the new London store and so on and so on.Apparently, DRB have put in a further £100m this year and plan an additional £100m next year.
I don't think they spent anywhere near that developing the Evora, and a chunk of that development spend was planned to be shared with the Esprit - things like the chassis architecture and design tools.
I get the strong impression DRB are planning to stabilise the company without spending a penny more than they have to, with an eye on selling them off as soon as they can get the company to produce consistent sales. Not large sales, just enough to run at an operating profit whilst servicing their debts. It's a short term strategy, and in a way Bahar's investment in facilities help them as Hethel was certainly looking less than impressive a couple of years back.
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