RE: Lotus five-car future is canned
Discussion
NRS said:
Great Pretender said:
Jaged said:
bleunos said:
Why don't Lotus just build an affordable sports car instead of chasing Aston, Ferrari, Porsche?
They could build a new Élan cheaply by just shamelessly copying the Eunos Roadster, which was itself shamelessly ripped off from the Lotus Élan! What comes around and all that. I don't see how Lotus didn't spot this years ago!
A lightweight, simple, reliable, great handling, RWD,130bhp ish, 2 seater coupe / convertible for about £12k ish would sell really well, undercut the mx5 by a good few grand. It wouldn't need to be the last word in sophistication. Something along the lines of the new toybaru coupe but much cheaper!
Get that selling, refresh the Elise then if the F1 team are still doing well MAYBE start thinking about building bespoke V8's to put in a Ferrari chasing supercar.
There seem to be a few PH'ers knocking your idea mate??They could build a new Élan cheaply by just shamelessly copying the Eunos Roadster, which was itself shamelessly ripped off from the Lotus Élan! What comes around and all that. I don't see how Lotus didn't spot this years ago!
A lightweight, simple, reliable, great handling, RWD,130bhp ish, 2 seater coupe / convertible for about £12k ish would sell really well, undercut the mx5 by a good few grand. It wouldn't need to be the last word in sophistication. Something along the lines of the new toybaru coupe but much cheaper!
Get that selling, refresh the Elise then if the F1 team are still doing well MAYBE start thinking about building bespoke V8's to put in a Ferrari chasing supercar.
Shame thay don't look at the Proton web site, as Proton's most expensive normal car is under £12k!
On the ROAD in the UK!
If I were the new owners, I'd knock all this Donny Bear s
te on the head and get them to put more resources into MY main brand and get a "Proton Lotus" on the road. A proper Proton Lotus!
Then I'd let Lotus loose on that new 2 seat sports car design you suggest, and we all want, but it will be made in the Proton Factory, not a shed in Norfolk.
Now having said that, the base Proton Lotus body parts (4 & 2 seater) will then be made available to Lotus Norfolk to build a "Lotus Proton" for the few select customers who want that bit "Extra"!
It would work IMHO and give everybody what they want?
In the mean time they can carry on with current models to keep things running, so the workforce can see what is coming and get ready for it.
For the Proton "Knockers", Proton Rally Team seem to be doing rather well lately.
It's simple, you make something people want to buy, at the price they are prepared to pay.
You may laugh, but there is no reason why Proton, with the help of Lotus, could not build some very saleable cars.
Desirable even? Eventually.
I totally agree Proton may not want to “Westernise” themselves sufficiently to do it, but who knows where the Asian market is going?
You might be able to buy Lotus next week for a song
I can remember when people said the MX5 could never be any good as a sports car, as it was not British. Well they were also wrong.
I can remember when people laughed at Skoda.
I can remember when people looked down on Subaru, then they won a few WRC's!
As for the current Lotus offerings available?
I myself recently decided to buy a soft-top Sports car and sadly Lotus never even got a look in.
It has been said in latter postings Lotus seems to have lost it's way, but Danny Boy, with enough money thrown at it, might even have made a success, but we will never know that now and they HAVE to move on.
None of us want another collapse like TVR! Or do you?
peter450 said:
If the 1.6 had a S/C and 170hp, it would look much better next to a modern Mx5, a much faster, and more sporting car, much like the original did all those years ago.
When the performance is near enough the same, the compromises and higher price charged start to look much more unpalatable
Evo just put a 2.0 sport tech MX5 round Bruntingthorpe and it was 5 seconds slower than a 1.6 Elise CR. Five seconds a lap is not even close and nothing like 'near enough the same'.When the performance is near enough the same, the compromises and higher price charged start to look much more unpalatable
I wish you'd give the 1.6 bashing a rest on every Lotus thread...
peter450 said:
If the 1.6 had a S/C and 170hp, it would look much better next to a modern Mx5, a much faster, and more sporting car, much like the original did all those years ago.
When the performance is near enough the same, the compromises and higher price charged start to look much more unpalatable
Evo just put a 2.0 sport tech MX5 round Bruntingthorpe and it was 5 seconds slower than a 1.6 Elise CR. Five seconds a lap is not even close and nothing like 'near enough the same'.When the performance is near enough the same, the compromises and higher price charged start to look much more unpalatable
I wish you'd give the 1.6 bashing a rest on every Lotus thread...
Looking back, a quick story. Some time back, I was in the market for a lightweight fun sports car. I went to my Lotus dealer, drove a 240S (I think), and loved it. About the same time, I heard about DB and his plan for 5 cars, and decided that both he and the company were simply crazy, they would likely die trying to meet that goal, and I didn't want to be stuck with a new car without a dealer network. So I passed, and bought an already built Ultima. I never looked back. We all knew that the plan was a farce and that their CEO was a nut-bomb. It took far longer to do what we all knew. That the plan would have to be reconstructed with a new leader at the helm.
Looking forward, it's hard to imagine how Lotus can survive building the type of cars that many on this thread love. Lightweight, trading comfort and luxury for performance, race-car like handling, and using a relatively low-power motor to power it. All with questionable levels of quality. The world market for lower-end niche market cars has disolved before out eyes. The development costs, manufacturing complexity, rising expectations and desire for luxury has driven up the cost structure and driven down the market size. The fact that so many on this site love Lotus' means little. We don't represent a significant sized market. And the fact that I am happy with my Ultima means that I am two sigma from the norm of sports car buyers and so my sports-car-related desires and opinions are not reflective of the market.
That Porsche, some years back, realized that even they could not survive without one or more cash cows (SUV and now sedan) says volumes about the world market. I worry that the space for 'unusual' or idiosyncratic autos is relegated to the very high-end. Where high margins can be traded for small markets.
So, unless Lotus can find a new and currently unknown manufacturing process that dramatically lowers cost and/or they move up market and build 2300 lb supercars and/or they add a big-market/big-margin car to their line-up, I fear that they are gone.
To cling to their recent quote that (paraphrasing), 'We're going to focus on quality' is truly sad. High quality is only a small part of today's table stakes.
B
Looking forward, it's hard to imagine how Lotus can survive building the type of cars that many on this thread love. Lightweight, trading comfort and luxury for performance, race-car like handling, and using a relatively low-power motor to power it. All with questionable levels of quality. The world market for lower-end niche market cars has disolved before out eyes. The development costs, manufacturing complexity, rising expectations and desire for luxury has driven up the cost structure and driven down the market size. The fact that so many on this site love Lotus' means little. We don't represent a significant sized market. And the fact that I am happy with my Ultima means that I am two sigma from the norm of sports car buyers and so my sports-car-related desires and opinions are not reflective of the market.
That Porsche, some years back, realized that even they could not survive without one or more cash cows (SUV and now sedan) says volumes about the world market. I worry that the space for 'unusual' or idiosyncratic autos is relegated to the very high-end. Where high margins can be traded for small markets.
So, unless Lotus can find a new and currently unknown manufacturing process that dramatically lowers cost and/or they move up market and build 2300 lb supercars and/or they add a big-market/big-margin car to their line-up, I fear that they are gone.
To cling to their recent quote that (paraphrasing), 'We're going to focus on quality' is truly sad. High quality is only a small part of today's table stakes.
B
Jaged said:
Sarcasm aside!
It's simple, you make something people want to buy, at the price they are prepared to pay.
You may laugh, but there is no reason why Proton, with the help of Lotus, could not build some very saleable cars.
Desirable even? Eventually.
I totally agree Proton may not want to “Westernise” themselves sufficiently to do it, but who knows where the Asian market is going?
You might be able to buy Lotus next week for a song
I can remember when people said the MX5 could never be any good as a sports car, as it was not British. Well they were also wrong.
I can remember when people laughed at Skoda.
I can remember when people looked down on Subaru, then they won a few WRC's!
As for the current Lotus offerings available?
I myself recently decided to buy a soft-top Sports car and sadly Lotus never even got a look in.
It has been said in latter postings Lotus seems to have lost it's way, but Danny Boy, with enough money thrown at it, might even have made a success, but we will never know that now and they HAVE to move on.
None of us want another collapse like TVR! Or do you?
Apologies for the sarcasm! I got a bit carried away, as some people seem to think that they should just build another MX-5 - the problem is matching up the cost and quality for a small car maker - it doesn't really work.It's simple, you make something people want to buy, at the price they are prepared to pay.
You may laugh, but there is no reason why Proton, with the help of Lotus, could not build some very saleable cars.
Desirable even? Eventually.
I totally agree Proton may not want to “Westernise” themselves sufficiently to do it, but who knows where the Asian market is going?
You might be able to buy Lotus next week for a song
I can remember when people said the MX5 could never be any good as a sports car, as it was not British. Well they were also wrong.
I can remember when people laughed at Skoda.
I can remember when people looked down on Subaru, then they won a few WRC's!
As for the current Lotus offerings available?
I myself recently decided to buy a soft-top Sports car and sadly Lotus never even got a look in.
It has been said in latter postings Lotus seems to have lost it's way, but Danny Boy, with enough money thrown at it, might even have made a success, but we will never know that now and they HAVE to move on.
None of us want another collapse like TVR! Or do you?
I do agree that it might have been a sucess on the 5 car model... but it was going to need someone brave to follow it all the way through, and if it didn't work would have been a very expensive mistake. As it is it's potentially the worse of both worlds - part of the way through the big plan and then wipe a lot of it to go small and get slower bigger. So a lot of money potentially wasted.
It's difficult to know which way to go, as people have very set minds about what Lotus is... ok to have expensive cars... or just cheap affordable fun cars? If they go for the expensive cars they risk losing their current customers, and potentially getting no new customers as the people they are targetting just don't know about them or just don't care. If they go small and affordable cars there isn't really the scale of economy to make it worth it. Hard to know what to do, so glad I'm not making the decision!
cjb1 said:
Lovely looking cars though hey? Now I reckon they can mix with the big boys anytime they want to.
I think they're great too, but I'm worried they're going to have the same problem as Ascari had... great car but very few people buy it and so it just doesn't work as a business case... hope I'm wrong.NRS said:
Jaged said:
Sarcasm aside!
It's simple, you make something people want to buy, at the price they are prepared to pay.
You may laugh, but there is no reason why Proton, with the help of Lotus, could not build some very saleable cars.
Desirable even? Eventually.
I totally agree Proton may not want to “Westernise” themselves sufficiently to do it, but who knows where the Asian market is going?
You might be able to buy Lotus next week for a song
I can remember when people said the MX5 could never be any good as a sports car, as it was not British. Well they were also wrong.
I can remember when people laughed at Skoda.
I can remember when people looked down on Subaru, then they won a few WRC's!
As for the current Lotus offerings available?
I myself recently decided to buy a soft-top Sports car and sadly Lotus never even got a look in.
It has been said in latter postings Lotus seems to have lost it's way, but Danny Boy, with enough money thrown at it, might even have made a success, but we will never know that now and they HAVE to move on.
None of us want another collapse like TVR! Or do you?
Apologies for the sarcasm! I got a bit carried away, as some people seem to think that they should just build another MX-5 - the problem is matching up the cost and quality for a small car maker - it doesn't really work.It's simple, you make something people want to buy, at the price they are prepared to pay.
You may laugh, but there is no reason why Proton, with the help of Lotus, could not build some very saleable cars.
Desirable even? Eventually.
I totally agree Proton may not want to “Westernise” themselves sufficiently to do it, but who knows where the Asian market is going?
You might be able to buy Lotus next week for a song
I can remember when people said the MX5 could never be any good as a sports car, as it was not British. Well they were also wrong.
I can remember when people laughed at Skoda.
I can remember when people looked down on Subaru, then they won a few WRC's!
As for the current Lotus offerings available?
I myself recently decided to buy a soft-top Sports car and sadly Lotus never even got a look in.
It has been said in latter postings Lotus seems to have lost it's way, but Danny Boy, with enough money thrown at it, might even have made a success, but we will never know that now and they HAVE to move on.
None of us want another collapse like TVR! Or do you?
I do agree that it might have been a sucess on the 5 car model... but it was going to need someone brave to follow it all the way through, and if it didn't work would have been a very expensive mistake. As it is it's potentially the worse of both worlds - part of the way through the big plan and then wipe a lot of it to go small and get slower bigger. So a lot of money potentially wasted.
It's difficult to know which way to go, as people have very set minds about what Lotus is... ok to have expensive cars... or just cheap affordable fun cars? If they go for the expensive cars they risk losing their current customers, and potentially getting no new customers as the people they are targetting just don't know about them or just don't care. If they go small and affordable cars there isn't really the scale of economy to make it worth it. Hard to know what to do, so glad I'm not making the decision!
cjb1 said:
Lovely looking cars though hey? Now I reckon they can mix with the big boys anytime they want to.
I think they're great too, but I'm worried they're going to have the same problem as Ascari had... great car but very few people buy it and so it just doesn't work as a business case... hope I'm wrong.DonkeyApple said:
It's a heavily modded Volvo V8. Which I believe is the Ford/Jaguar AJ engine.
No - it's a Yamaha V8.I was thinking about the situation Lotus are in last night. Other manufacturers have been in similar predicaments in comparable economic times.
Porsche, for example, were on the rocks in 1993. The models that saved them were the 968 Club Sport (stripped-out trackday special version of the 968, crucially offered at a lower price reflecting the removal of componants), then the Boxster (based on the 996, but reworked for mass-production after consultation with Toyota).
Aston Martin, likewise, were in difficulty in the late '80s. They were rescued firstly by the V8 Zagato (ultra-expensive to buy, but not actually that expensive to build over a standard V8, increasing the margins on a labour-intensive car by building an ultra-desirable limited run for the super-rich), then by the DB7 (based on the XJS, and reworked for semi-mass production after consultation with Ford).
So, the Lotus recovery needs to take two stages. Firstly, a car that offers Lotus vastly increased margins over their current range. The fabled cheaper sports car, a simplified Elise perhaps, maybe with some of the production offshored to Malaysia, but crucially with the Supercharged engine offering blinding performance for not much cost.
And secondly, a volume-seller. I actually reckon the new Esprit will sell well regardless. IMO 'Esprit' exists as a brand almost separately of Lotus. It means something to non-car people, and word-association with 'Esprit' will churn up James Bond, Basic Instinct and Pretty Woman (and other lesser-known films like The Rookie and Boiler Room). You can't really say the same of lesser models with tuned proprietary engines. Having the Esprit in the range will help Lotus regardless.
So - we need a cheaper Elise variant to take on the MX5 and an Esprit to top the range. In between, it seems the Exige V6 will sell well once production gets underway (everyone seems to love it). As for the Evora - I'd wait to see how well it sells as a convertible. If it doesn't, accept it's served its purpose laying the groundwork for the new Esprit, and drop it.
Twincam16 said:
No - it's a Yamaha V8.
I was thinking about the situation Lotus are in last night. Other manufacturers have been in similar predicaments in comparable economic times.
Porsche, for example, were on the rocks in 1993. The models that saved them were the 968 Club Sport (stripped-out trackday special version of the 968, crucially offered at a lower price reflecting the removal of componants), then the Boxster (based on the 996, but reworked for mass-production after consultation with Toyota).
Aston Martin, likewise, were in difficulty in the late '80s. They were rescued firstly by the V8 Zagato (ultra-expensive to buy, but not actually that expensive to build over a standard V8, increasing the margins on a labour-intensive car by building an ultra-desirable limited run for the super-rich), then by the DB7 (based on the XJS, and reworked for semi-mass production after consultation with Ford).
So, the Lotus recovery needs to take two stages. Firstly, a car that offers Lotus vastly increased margins over their current range. The fabled cheaper sports car, a simplified Elise perhaps, maybe with some of the production offshored to Malaysia, but crucially with the Supercharged engine offering blinding performance for not much cost.
And secondly, a volume-seller. I actually reckon the new Esprit will sell well regardless. IMO 'Esprit' exists as a brand almost separately of Lotus. It means something to non-car people, and word-association with 'Esprit' will churn up James Bond, Basic Instinct and Pretty Woman (and other lesser-known films like The Rookie and Boiler Room). You can't really say the same of lesser models with tuned proprietary engines. Having the Esprit in the range will help Lotus regardless.
So - we need a cheaper Elise variant to take on the MX5 and an Esprit to top the range. In between, it seems the Exige V6 will sell well once production gets underway (everyone seems to love it). As for the Evora - I'd wait to see how well it sells as a convertible. If it doesn't, accept it's served its purpose laying the groundwork for the new Esprit, and drop it.
I agree that to stay as a large company they need a cheap unit they can sell in droves. And that the most sensible way to do this is to take someone else's mass produced product and make it better and as Lotus as possible. The people you want to sell to will never have heard of Colin Chapmen or anything about adding lightness. I was thinking about the situation Lotus are in last night. Other manufacturers have been in similar predicaments in comparable economic times.
Porsche, for example, were on the rocks in 1993. The models that saved them were the 968 Club Sport (stripped-out trackday special version of the 968, crucially offered at a lower price reflecting the removal of componants), then the Boxster (based on the 996, but reworked for mass-production after consultation with Toyota).
Aston Martin, likewise, were in difficulty in the late '80s. They were rescued firstly by the V8 Zagato (ultra-expensive to buy, but not actually that expensive to build over a standard V8, increasing the margins on a labour-intensive car by building an ultra-desirable limited run for the super-rich), then by the DB7 (based on the XJS, and reworked for semi-mass production after consultation with Ford).
So, the Lotus recovery needs to take two stages. Firstly, a car that offers Lotus vastly increased margins over their current range. The fabled cheaper sports car, a simplified Elise perhaps, maybe with some of the production offshored to Malaysia, but crucially with the Supercharged engine offering blinding performance for not much cost.
And secondly, a volume-seller. I actually reckon the new Esprit will sell well regardless. IMO 'Esprit' exists as a brand almost separately of Lotus. It means something to non-car people, and word-association with 'Esprit' will churn up James Bond, Basic Instinct and Pretty Woman (and other lesser-known films like The Rookie and Boiler Room). You can't really say the same of lesser models with tuned proprietary engines. Having the Esprit in the range will help Lotus regardless.
So - we need a cheaper Elise variant to take on the MX5 and an Esprit to top the range. In between, it seems the Exige V6 will sell well once production gets underway (everyone seems to love it). As for the Evora - I'd wait to see how well it sells as a convertible. If it doesn't, accept it's served its purpose laying the groundwork for the new Esprit, and drop it.
Not sure on your prognosis on the Esprit. I have a horrible feeling it'll be another Evora for the reasons we discussed earlier.
So it seems we are coming round to the view Lotus need to boost volume.
I stil believe that if Proton allowed Lotus to produce a Lotus-Proton, it would sell like hotcakes!
Just think how many Lotus fans there are out who would love to own a Lotus, but either need a 4 seater or have to choose off a company list.
When the base Proton GEN-2(?) 5 door hatch is only £9,150 on the road, what could Lotus do to it for say £5k and still undecut so many other cars.
Time will tell, but I do wish them luck!
I stil believe that if Proton allowed Lotus to produce a Lotus-Proton, it would sell like hotcakes!
Just think how many Lotus fans there are out who would love to own a Lotus, but either need a 4 seater or have to choose off a company list.
When the base Proton GEN-2(?) 5 door hatch is only £9,150 on the road, what could Lotus do to it for say £5k and still undecut so many other cars.
Time will tell, but I do wish them luck!
Jaged said:
So it seems we are coming round to the view Lotus need to boost volume.
No, Lotus need to boost income. They have two options - higher margins at the sort of volumes they've historically achieved or significantly larger volumes. Of the two, higher margins are probably a better bet - they're a technologically led company with hand built cars and a process that supports that. Higher volumes require a product that they currently cannot build in Norfolk, at margins that only extreme mass production can achieve and that takes off as a credible competitor in a busy end of the market. Remember Toyota canned the MR-2 because it just wasn't worth their while. That was a very credible roadster and a company the size of Toyota couldn't sustain it.
Picking up on your Lotus-Proton idea, I reckon it'd be possible for Lotus to both increase margin and volume.
Margin - the new Esprit, Exige V6 and possibly the Evora convertible.
Volume - outsource Elise production to Proton.
The MR2 was expensive to build partly because they made it in Japan. It was also considerably more sophisticated than the Elise in terms of electronics.
Lotus could still do the PDIs to make sure everything's OK. It'd be the modern equivalent of a Europa-Renault S2.
Margin - the new Esprit, Exige V6 and possibly the Evora convertible.
Volume - outsource Elise production to Proton.
The MR2 was expensive to build partly because they made it in Japan. It was also considerably more sophisticated than the Elise in terms of electronics.
Lotus could still do the PDIs to make sure everything's OK. It'd be the modern equivalent of a Europa-Renault S2.
Tuna said:
Jaged said:
So it seems we are coming round to the view Lotus need to boost volume.
No, Lotus need to boost income. They have two options - higher margins at the sort of volumes they've historically achieved or significantly larger volumes. Of the two, higher margins are probably a better bet - they're a technologically led company with hand built cars and a process that supports that. Higher volumes require a product that they currently cannot build in Norfolk, at margins that only extreme mass production can achieve and that takes off as a credible competitor in a busy end of the market. Remember Toyota canned the MR-2 because it just wasn't worth their while. That was a very credible roadster and a company the size of Toyota couldn't sustain it.
IMHO they would need to go for a full hand crafted Ally to make it "Special" enough.
Just as Ferarri did.
I don't even think a full CF body would be special enough these days.
Having lived with the beauty and idiosyncrasies of a Cerbera, I believe it was the GRP body that just kept that "kit car" tag/image looming in peoples minds all the time. As great as it was, I found it was just not an every day car FOR ME.
Whereas the Boxster S was I recently purchased, was to be just that.
My drive to work 15,000 miles a year car.
Chapman moved the car world forward with his 7, just the same Lotus moved the car world forward with the way the Elise was constructed. Lotus need to do it again to be the company you want. IMHO.
But as someone just said, that Sunbeam Lotus was an object of desire for so many including myself.
With Lotus in F1 getting huge TV coverage, Proton would be MAD not to capitalise on it world wide.
Well they would if I owned them!
Twincam16 said:
Volume - outsource Elise production to Proton.
The Elise as it currently stands cannot be built cheaply. The chassis technology is inherently expensive and immune to mass production techniques. A Proton-Elise would have to be built on a conventional floor-pan. Not going to happen.The only way to generate significantly higher margins is to sell products at significantly higher prices. Notwithstanding that Lotus may not have the skills to produce a higher valued (and priced) car (e.g. quality interior, sophisticated higher-power engine and transmission, more exotic materials for structural and visual values), they don't have the street cred to demand high prices for a high value car. It would take a leap in quality and an earned history of same to make a play here.
I just think there is no way to go up-market to compete against F-cars, Lambos, McCars, and high-end Porsche's. They will have to bring the 'just add lightness' credo to a lower-cost design and build volume based on a lower cost/price basis and an improved quality metric. They will also have to walk in the shoes of Porsche and construct one or more cash-cows that can bring the 'lightness' values along to the SUV or mid-priced sedan market. Perhaps in partnership with Proton this can be done, but it is such a state-change for the scale and direction of this small company that it stretches my sense of plausibility.
Again, I am not an anti-Lotus whiner. I love their design center, prefer the Elise/Exige over many cars in the market and just hope they can survive, and without altering their design center.
V
I just think there is no way to go up-market to compete against F-cars, Lambos, McCars, and high-end Porsche's. They will have to bring the 'just add lightness' credo to a lower-cost design and build volume based on a lower cost/price basis and an improved quality metric. They will also have to walk in the shoes of Porsche and construct one or more cash-cows that can bring the 'lightness' values along to the SUV or mid-priced sedan market. Perhaps in partnership with Proton this can be done, but it is such a state-change for the scale and direction of this small company that it stretches my sense of plausibility.
Again, I am not an anti-Lotus whiner. I love their design center, prefer the Elise/Exige over many cars in the market and just hope they can survive, and without altering their design center.
V
Verde said:
The only way to generate significantly higher margins is to sell products at significantly higher prices. Notwithstanding that Lotus may not have the skills to produce a higher valued (and priced) car (e.g. quality interior, sophisticated higher-power engine and transmission, more exotic materials for structural and visual values), they don't have the street cred to demand high prices for a high value car. It would take a leap in quality and an earned history of same to make a play here.
I just think there is no way to go up-market to compete against F-cars, Lambos, McCars, and high-end Porsche's. They will have to bring the 'just add lightness' credo to a lower-cost design and build volume based on a lower cost/price basis and an improved quality metric. They will also have to walk in the shoes of Porsche and construct one or more cash-cows that can bring the 'lightness' values along to the SUV or mid-priced sedan market. Perhaps in partnership with Proton this can be done, but it is such a state-change for the scale and direction of this small company that it stretches my sense of plausibility.
Again, I am not an anti-Lotus whiner. I love their design center, prefer the Elise/Exige over many cars in the market and just hope they can survive, and without altering their design center.
V
I'm not sure the expertise is there within either Lotus or Proton to build a credible SUV. It's not in the ethos of either company - Proton has a history of rebodying other people's castoffs before Lotus designed the Savvy, Gen-2 and Satria Neo for them. The best cars they've built are the Satrias, at least in part down to lessons learned in rallying.I just think there is no way to go up-market to compete against F-cars, Lambos, McCars, and high-end Porsche's. They will have to bring the 'just add lightness' credo to a lower-cost design and build volume based on a lower cost/price basis and an improved quality metric. They will also have to walk in the shoes of Porsche and construct one or more cash-cows that can bring the 'lightness' values along to the SUV or mid-priced sedan market. Perhaps in partnership with Proton this can be done, but it is such a state-change for the scale and direction of this small company that it stretches my sense of plausibility.
Again, I am not an anti-Lotus whiner. I love their design center, prefer the Elise/Exige over many cars in the market and just hope they can survive, and without altering their design center.
V
Given that the first Satria GTI, with its cool rivetted-on arches and Lotus badges, was a success, what about a rally-rep Lotus Satria Neo?
Seriously, it's a genuine gap in the market. There are plenty of hot hatches out there, but they're nearly all FWD, and the rally-special market looks rather lonely at the moment. The only ones left are the Impreza and the Evo and they're both shadows of their former selves. There's positive anguish at the fact there's been no rally-car-from-the-road from Citroen.
So, what Lotus needs to do is design a 4WD drivetrain that can be fitted to the Satria Neo road car, and a series of tuning measures to be applied to the 1.6 CamPro engine.
Wouldn't cost Proton any more really, as all they'd need to do is send however many Satria Neo Rallys they think they're going to sell to Hethel for conversion. Given how cheap the base car is, they could sell it at a price that easily undercut the Focus ST, RenaultSport Megane, Astra VXR and Golf GTI, and the Lotus trump-card could be genuine rally-style 4WD, avoiding the torque-steer that so many modern hot-hatches suffer with.
Whip the badges off and market it as the Lotus Satria Neo Rally or something similar. Lotus would profit from the relatively high volume of throughput, and it'd put the Lotus badge out to a wider audience - you'd see it more often on the road.
And if it proved popular, maybe the drivetrain could be offered in the Gen-2 as well, perhaps as a nod to the BTCC car.
Verde said:
The only way to generate significantly higher margins is to sell products at significantly higher prices. Notwithstanding that Lotus may not have the skills to produce a higher valued (and priced) car (e.g. quality interior, sophisticated higher-power engine and transmission, more exotic materials for structural and visual values), they don't have the street cred to demand high prices for a high value car. It would take a leap in quality and an earned history of same to make a play here.
I just think there is no way to go up-market to compete against F-cars, Lambos, McCars, and high-end Porsche's. They will have to bring the 'just add lightness' credo to a lower-cost design and build volume based on a lower cost/price basis and an improved quality metric. They will also have to walk in the shoes of Porsche and construct one or more cash-cows that can bring the 'lightness' values along to the SUV or mid-priced sedan market. Perhaps in partnership with Proton this can be done, but it is such a state-change for the scale and direction of this small company that it stretches my sense of plausibility.
Again, I am not an anti-Lotus whiner. I love their design center, prefer the Elise/Exige over many cars in the market and just hope they can survive, and without altering their design center.
V
This is true but you still need volume to protect as well as maximise the margins. I just think there is no way to go up-market to compete against F-cars, Lambos, McCars, and high-end Porsche's. They will have to bring the 'just add lightness' credo to a lower-cost design and build volume based on a lower cost/price basis and an improved quality metric. They will also have to walk in the shoes of Porsche and construct one or more cash-cows that can bring the 'lightness' values along to the SUV or mid-priced sedan market. Perhaps in partnership with Proton this can be done, but it is such a state-change for the scale and direction of this small company that it stretches my sense of plausibility.
Again, I am not an anti-Lotus whiner. I love their design center, prefer the Elise/Exige over many cars in the market and just hope they can survive, and without altering their design center.
V
Lotus can't cant get the margins it needs from 2 seaters the maths jousts adds up to a business model which is too flakey.
The two seater market is too low volume to achieve the scale needed for healthy margins and good quality product. It's obviously not impossible but it's just about the worst automotive model to be chasing. The West is bust and the East has potholes bigger than these cars and a need for bling that erodes all your margins.
I think they need to sure up their foundations as a priority and to do that look at which market has the largest sales volumes, good price elasticity and strongest growth potential. Then deliver an upgrade package to a specific mass produced model that achieves better handling, lighter weight, better performance and a nice body kit and badge so other owners of the standard marque are aware of your superiority.
So, which area in the market has one of the widest price ranges, is produced by almost every manufacturer, has versions from utility to bling and has the strongest growth potential in the most important market?
The SUV
The one vehicle that is the furthest removed from the ethos of Lotus is the one vehicle that is crying out for the Lotus magic.
Just imagine how much weight Lotus could remove from something like a RR Sport? Better handling and more power. And then imagine the margin that this segment of the market is able to swallow.
Not only that, they have an enormous used market suitable for conversion.
But whether this specific example is right, the reality is that there are safer margins and better volumes in badging a product for a global manufacturer, sold via their network than there is in building very small 2 seaters.
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