RE: Lotus five-car future is canned
Discussion
Wayoftheflower said:
I dearly hope the home grown V8 gets made though, to many supercar engines are going forced induction in the name of greenyness 
And how cool would one cut in half be, 2.4 litre I4 with 300bhp@9000rpm 
think again... And how cool would one cut in half be, 2.4 litre I4 with 300bhp@9000rpm for starters, it was not new, and the costs to get it into a manufacturable, EU5 compliant engine are beyond sensible unless your either very rich or plan to make them in 100,000's.
ESOG said:
I agree Lotus should produce affordable sports cars like the Elan M100 (my day) but think about this; The Elise is has stripped down as they come, even more so than the M100 Elan and its nowhere near affordable, new any way. So its like, how much less can they possibly build to where it is sub $30,000?
But the M100 was never cheap......£20k, 20 yrs ago! And Lotus were still losing a fortune on each one they built!bleunos said:
Why don't Lotus just build an affordable sports car instead of chasing Aston, Ferrari, Porsche?
They could build a new Élan cheaply by just shamelessly copying the Eunos Roadster, which was itself shamelessly ripped off from the Lotus Élan! What comes around and all that. I don't see how Lotus didn't spot this years ago!
A lightweight, simple, reliable, great handling, RWD,130bhp ish, 2 seater coupe / convertible for about £12k ish would sell really well, undercut the mx5 by a good few grand. It wouldn't need to be the last word in sophistication. Something along the lines of the new toybaru coupe but much cheaper!
Get that selling, refresh the Elise then if the F1 team are still doing well MAYBE start thinking about building bespoke V8's to put in a Ferrari chasing supercar.
Absolutely agree. THe MX-5 is the worlds best selling sports car. Lotus need at least a small slice of that. But, it doesn't need to be cheaper - it needs to be much better. People will then pay a premium for it.They could build a new Élan cheaply by just shamelessly copying the Eunos Roadster, which was itself shamelessly ripped off from the Lotus Élan! What comes around and all that. I don't see how Lotus didn't spot this years ago!
A lightweight, simple, reliable, great handling, RWD,130bhp ish, 2 seater coupe / convertible for about £12k ish would sell really well, undercut the mx5 by a good few grand. It wouldn't need to be the last word in sophistication. Something along the lines of the new toybaru coupe but much cheaper!
Get that selling, refresh the Elise then if the F1 team are still doing well MAYBE start thinking about building bespoke V8's to put in a Ferrari chasing supercar.
Edited by suffolk009 on Saturday 28th July 06:56
suffolk009 said:
Absolutely agree. THe MX-5 is the worlds best selling sports car. Lotus need at least a small slice of that. But, it doesn't need to be cheaper - it needs to be much better. People will then pay a premium for it.
Ignoring the economics, how can you be better enough than the MX-5 to make people pay any sort of premium over it? No, I'm not joking. As far as the mass market is concerned, the MX-5 is pretty, reliable, fun, extremely well developed and practical for what it is. There are faster versions and cheaper ones. The base Elise is only a few grand over the 2 litre MX-5 yet it's a niche product - speed and handling don't get (that many) people paying extra, so what on earth do you bring to the table that would?Edited by suffolk009 on Saturday 28th July 06:56
Scuffers said:
for starters, it was not new, and the costs to get it into a manufacturable, EU5 compliant engine are beyond sensible unless your either very rich or plan to make them in 100,000's.
Really? Where was this engine used before? What's so hard about Eu5 regs for a petrol engine?The M100 didn't feel like a Lotus to drive. I always found it very disappointing. The Elise is much more like an original Elan.
The LFA V10 was the initial plan for the new Esprit and I would expect that to be revived.
In the meantime I'd expect to see more and more powerful versions of the existing cars, perhaps a 400bhp+ version of the Evora with a roof scoop for a distinctive look and cooling.
As the odd-ball I'd like to see the range extended electric Evora they showed.
Simon.
The LFA V10 was the initial plan for the new Esprit and I would expect that to be revived.
In the meantime I'd expect to see more and more powerful versions of the existing cars, perhaps a 400bhp+ version of the Evora with a roof scoop for a distinctive look and cooling.
As the odd-ball I'd like to see the range extended electric Evora they showed.
Simon.
Scuffers said:
think again...
for starters, it was not new, and the costs to get it into a manufacturable, EU5 compliant engine are beyond sensible unless your either very rich or plan to make them in 100,000's.
You're contradicting yourself a bit there surely? Not new = cheaper doesn't it?for starters, it was not new, and the costs to get it into a manufacturable, EU5 compliant engine are beyond sensible unless your either very rich or plan to make them in 100,000's.
Costs wise, clearly it's made economic sense to Mclaren, and Lotus engineering develop engine technology constantly, both for other clients and for their own IP. I understood Lotus' plan to be to get an engine that would see them through a generation of cars, that could be chopped and changed a little, and that would work in hybrid and other configurations. The value of such an engine goes way beyond the 'crate price'.
In other words, it would be disappointing if the Esprit came out with a third party engine. No news yet on Zimmerman getting the boot, but that'll seal the deal.
Wayoftheflower said:
Scuffers said:
for starters, it was not new, and the costs to get it into a manufacturable, EU5 compliant engine are beyond sensible unless your either very rich or plan to make them in 100,000's.
Really? Where was this engine used before? What's so hard about Eu5 regs for a petrol engine?and EU5 is straight forward enough for shopping-trolley engines, but when your trying to make 120+Bhp/Litre NA it's quite some challenge, hence why most high-revving engines have been dropped (2ZZ/K20A/etc.etc.)
the issues are with high compression/big overlap engines with high EGT's having high NOx outputs that EU5/6 are clamping down on...
Hooray! Great news!
I've always been in opposition to the new range and its values. Very pleased that the Lotus ethos has a chance of living on now rather than being quietly taken out the back and shot, as Bahar was planning.
Elise, Exige and Evora is a strong range. Though an Esprit is needed; even if it's just on a heavily-modified Evora chassis. To me, Esprit is as essential to the brand as Elise has become.
I've always been in opposition to the new range and its values. Very pleased that the Lotus ethos has a chance of living on now rather than being quietly taken out the back and shot, as Bahar was planning.
Elise, Exige and Evora is a strong range. Though an Esprit is needed; even if it's just on a heavily-modified Evora chassis. To me, Esprit is as essential to the brand as Elise has become.
Scuffers said:
it was a DTM engine project from HWA.
So it's a 4.8 litre V8 related to a 4.0 V8 used in DTM? New enough for me.Scuffers said:
and EU5 is straight forward enough for shopping-trolley engines, but when your trying to make 120+Bhp/Litre NA it's quite some challenge, hence why most high-revving engines have been dropped (2ZZ/K20A/etc.etc.)
the issues are with high compression/big overlap engines with high EGT's having high NOx outputs that EU5/6 are clamping down on...
That's very interesting, So Eu4->Eu5 is a 20% cut in NOx + particulate&HC regs for petrol. Damn shame if the only companies with deep enough pockets to make revvy NAs are VWpire and Ferrari. Mind you I can't imagine it would take long to reverse engineer whatever tricks Porsche are using to get there small H6s through Eu5 if you wanted to. the issues are with high compression/big overlap engines with high EGT's having high NOx outputs that EU5/6 are clamping down on...
Scuffers said:
and EU5 is straight forward enough for shopping-trolley engines, but when your trying to make 120+Bhp/Litre NA it's quite some challenge, hence why most high-revving engines have been dropped (2ZZ/K20A/etc.etc.)
the issues are with high compression/big overlap engines with high EGT's having high NOx outputs that EU5/6 are clamping down on...
With dual varriable cam phasers, there is no particular issue with high lift/ long duration cams (because you remove the overlap at idle/low load), and a high geometric CR can actually help clean combustion (tends to lower THc but does increase Nox). However, EU5 emissions really centre on the aftertreatment system rather than the raw engine out emissions so the issues really centers around the exhaust system. To get to EU5 you need very very fast catalyst light off (generally less than the 11sec idle period before the first hill on the EUDC cycle), and this means the catalyst system needs to be physically close to the combustion chambers in order to minimise heat loss from the combustion event. But for a high performance NA engine, your exhaust design has a massive influence on maximum output. You want nice big long multi grouped headers (4-2-1 etc) and this is in direct conflict with the light off requirement!the issues are with high compression/big overlap engines with high EGT's having high NOx outputs that EU5/6 are clamping down on...
Add in the requirement for a large valve area (and hence lots of cylinders) and a large capacity requirement to get high overall output and these are all the polar opposites of fuel economy optimisation methods.
Tuna said:
Costs wise, clearly it's made economic sense to Mclaren, and Lotus engineering develop engine technology constantly, both for other clients and for their own IP.
McLaren bought in their 3.8 turbo from Ricardo, who also build the engine.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8651725/R...
C
This is good news indeed. I quite liked the 5 cars to look at, but they were very cookie cutter. If I asked my 13 year old stepson to draw me a sports car, I'm confident he'd come up with something like that. The Elise/Exige are visually so different from anything else on the road, and I love them for it.
I really hope that Lotus can survive, and scaling back DB's ego trip is a very positive step. Hooray!
I really hope that Lotus can survive, and scaling back DB's ego trip is a very positive step. Hooray!
CraigyMc said:
McLaren bought in their 3.8 turbo from Ricardo, who also build the engine.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8651725/R...
C
That doesn't change the economic argument much though does it?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8651725/R...
C
Well I think the most important thing Lotus needs right now is a bit of stability, normal press (no great buyouts / seven million new products /odd links with left-field groups etc) and then perhaps a few cars sold.
Lotus needs to distance itself from swerve ball companies of old (TVR, MG Rover etc) and start looking credible to the average sports car buyer.
Lotus needs to distance itself from swerve ball companies of old (TVR, MG Rover etc) and start looking credible to the average sports car buyer.
bleunos said:
Why don't Lotus just build an affordable sports car instead of chasing Aston, Ferrari, Porsche?
They could build a new Élan cheaply by just shamelessly copying the Eunos Roadster, which was itself shamelessly ripped off from the Lotus Élan! What comes around and all that. I don't see how Lotus didn't spot this years ago!
A lightweight, simple, reliable, great handling, RWD,130bhp ish, 2 seater coupe / convertible for about £12k ish would sell really well, undercut the mx5 by a good few grand. It wouldn't need to be the last word in sophistication. Something along the lines of the new toybaru coupe but much cheaper!
Get that selling, refresh the Elise then if the F1 team are still doing well MAYBE start thinking about building bespoke V8's to put in a Ferrari chasing supercar.
There seem to be a few PH'ers knocking your idea mate??They could build a new Élan cheaply by just shamelessly copying the Eunos Roadster, which was itself shamelessly ripped off from the Lotus Élan! What comes around and all that. I don't see how Lotus didn't spot this years ago!
A lightweight, simple, reliable, great handling, RWD,130bhp ish, 2 seater coupe / convertible for about £12k ish would sell really well, undercut the mx5 by a good few grand. It wouldn't need to be the last word in sophistication. Something along the lines of the new toybaru coupe but much cheaper!
Get that selling, refresh the Elise then if the F1 team are still doing well MAYBE start thinking about building bespoke V8's to put in a Ferrari chasing supercar.
Shame thay don't look at the Proton web site, as Proton's most expensive normal car is under £12k!
On the ROAD in the UK!
If I were the new owners, I'd knock all this Donny Bear s
te on the head and get them to put more resources into MY main brand and get a "Proton Lotus" on the road. A proper Proton Lotus!
Then I'd let Lotus loose on that new 2 seat sports car design you suggest, and we all want, but it will be made in the Proton Factory, not a shed in Norfolk.
Now having said that, the base Proton Lotus body parts (4 & 2 seater) will then be made available to Lotus Norfolk to build a "Lotus Proton" for the few select customers who want that bit "Extra"!
It would work IMHO and give everybody what they want?
In the mean time they can carry on with current models to keep things running, so the workforce can see what is coming and get ready for it.
For the Proton "Knockers", Proton Rally Team seem to be doing rather well lately.
I cannot help the feeling this will be goodbye the Lotus we know and live! Hello to something different, more upmarket.
Lotus has never really fitted as a upmarket car maker, quality has been a bit lacking. Still these were great fun cars. If they move up market what happens to the Elise? I do not see this fitting easily into an upmarket range. The sad part is I see a market for a car like this and a smaller cheaper sub Elise car.
Lotus I feel could be a volume seller in this area. Think Smart Roadster done by Lotus! Get back to fun low weight and low cost cars. A 2+2 Elise could also be fun if you past it of a saloon for racing. A very different GTI/hot hatch replacement. I know this would a risky way forwards for Lotus, but it fit in my mind with Lotus past.
Lotus has never really fitted as a upmarket car maker, quality has been a bit lacking. Still these were great fun cars. If they move up market what happens to the Elise? I do not see this fitting easily into an upmarket range. The sad part is I see a market for a car like this and a smaller cheaper sub Elise car.
Lotus I feel could be a volume seller in this area. Think Smart Roadster done by Lotus! Get back to fun low weight and low cost cars. A 2+2 Elise could also be fun if you past it of a saloon for racing. A very different GTI/hot hatch replacement. I know this would a risky way forwards for Lotus, but it fit in my mind with Lotus past.
Lotus need an operation to sell 5000 units per year - they were doing that in the early 1970s. At present they sell just hundreds in a year.
So clearly there is currently insufficient demand for their offerings.
Sprites and Midgets sold 12,000 per year the MGF sold 25000 cars per year double the UK sales then of the MX5.
None of these cars has been replaced . Mazda mopped up some and doubled their UK volume but there is clearly still a void present yet to be filled for a small light basic no frills but practical sportscar.
Such a basic fundamental thing as being able to comfortably get in and out of the car puts off vast numbers of older buyers ( they are the ones with money to buy such a car) This has never been addressed in the 16 years model life of the Elise so far.
The original design when the chassis was drawn was for a Lotus 7 type car with no doors at all as a technical exercise to test extruded glued aluminium chassis design to sell just 8 cars a week. The basic design should have had a major revision at least 10 years ago.
The entry level MX5 is £18000 that is the price Lotus need to compete with because they certainly cannot make such a refined car at this price, so they need a unique ultra light driving experience which means 700kgs, yet with a roof windows and doors that is daily usable.
So clearly there is currently insufficient demand for their offerings.
Sprites and Midgets sold 12,000 per year the MGF sold 25000 cars per year double the UK sales then of the MX5.
None of these cars has been replaced . Mazda mopped up some and doubled their UK volume but there is clearly still a void present yet to be filled for a small light basic no frills but practical sportscar.
Such a basic fundamental thing as being able to comfortably get in and out of the car puts off vast numbers of older buyers ( they are the ones with money to buy such a car) This has never been addressed in the 16 years model life of the Elise so far.
The original design when the chassis was drawn was for a Lotus 7 type car with no doors at all as a technical exercise to test extruded glued aluminium chassis design to sell just 8 cars a week. The basic design should have had a major revision at least 10 years ago.
The entry level MX5 is £18000 that is the price Lotus need to compete with because they certainly cannot make such a refined car at this price, so they need a unique ultra light driving experience which means 700kgs, yet with a roof windows and doors that is daily usable.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff