RE: PH Blog: joy of specs
Discussion
RX7 said:
As said before which you choose to ignore, a Range Rover (as one example) is designed to be a very very good off road vehicle to be used in such a fashion, so if you dont go off road, is that missing the "point", what you or anyone looks for in a car is THE most relevant thing, surely?
The point to any vehicle is what the owner wants from it, maybe they want a RR for the comfort factor, maybe they want it to keep up with the Jonses or pose down the wine bar, who cares what the intended design brief is, we dont all have to be swayed by marketing hype and design briefs!
It may have been pitched as an affordable, sensible speed fun car (your take), but i hardly think £27k is affordable to many, had it been launched at its intended price point, i think they may well have been closer to the "point" or "your point", i am not criticising the car, i am criticising the price, which many others have and everyones justification then was, what do you expect for the money and Nissan have showed again, more doesnt have to necessarily have to cost more! Same as the GTR!
If the 86 fits the bill for you and fulfils a design brief that you want, then great, but the point to any car is only what an owner wants, not a car itself!
I sort of see where you're going. You can use a car for whatever purpose you like even if you don't exploit its full potential. Equally, if you choose to go off roading in your Exige that's up to you. However, the point I was trying to make is that just as it is unreasonable to criticise your Exige for being a crap off-roader it is unreasonable to complain that a 2 litre 4 pot has less grunt than a 3.7 litre V6. The point to any vehicle is what the owner wants from it, maybe they want a RR for the comfort factor, maybe they want it to keep up with the Jonses or pose down the wine bar, who cares what the intended design brief is, we dont all have to be swayed by marketing hype and design briefs!
It may have been pitched as an affordable, sensible speed fun car (your take), but i hardly think £27k is affordable to many, had it been launched at its intended price point, i think they may well have been closer to the "point" or "your point", i am not criticising the car, i am criticising the price, which many others have and everyones justification then was, what do you expect for the money and Nissan have showed again, more doesnt have to necessarily have to cost more! Same as the GTR!
If the 86 fits the bill for you and fulfils a design brief that you want, then great, but the point to any car is only what an owner wants, not a car itself!
While I agree that a Subaru/Toyota is not exactly 'affordable' for Mr Average, you have to look at it in the context of the competition. Special edition RenaultSport Clios are well into the 20s and the latest fast Astra is pushing £30k with sensible options. Comparisons with stuff like the new 135M are misleading because everyone wants nice wheels and paint and once you start paying well into the £30ks you're also looking for a good stereo, sat nav and leather.
It's always difficult to quantify the pleasure that comes from speccing and owning a brand new car with a full warranty. Used cars will always offer tremendous value provided nothing goes wrong and you can forgo the pleasure of owning a desirable car that is new to the market. It's a subject that's been done to death and yet will continue to provoke enormous threads on this site.
OK, I know it's going against the spirit of the article but if you're looking for £ per BHP you've got to consider second hand (and that even before you start to think about the hit you take on the value of the vehicle the instant that you drive it off the forecourt).
How about my ex-shedoftheweek Subaru Impreza Turbo 5 door: 218 BHP for £800 = £3.67/BHP; zero depreciation and a huge smile each time I drive it
Bargain
How about my ex-shedoftheweek Subaru Impreza Turbo 5 door: 218 BHP for £800 = £3.67/BHP; zero depreciation and a huge smile each time I drive it
BargainOne of these cars is a proper two seater sports car whilst the other is a 4 seater hatch......... I know which I would prefer 
Seriously though I quite like the Nissan and £ for £ despite the extra on running costs for a private buyer I think it is the car I would choose.
Something about 300+ bhp, N/A and RWD does the trick nicely (but then im biased). If the 370z is antyhing like the 350z or better than it will be a decent steer and hides its weight pretty well (Iv driven the 350z and been a passenger many a time).
Even if the GT86/BRZ had a turbo or supercharger (to make up the power) I think it would take away a certain aspect (N/A) and it could do with a better soundtrack to go with any additional power.
Seriously though I quite like the Nissan and £ for £ despite the extra on running costs for a private buyer I think it is the car I would choose.
Something about 300+ bhp, N/A and RWD does the trick nicely (but then im biased). If the 370z is antyhing like the 350z or better than it will be a decent steer and hides its weight pretty well (Iv driven the 350z and been a passenger many a time).
Even if the GT86/BRZ had a turbo or supercharger (to make up the power) I think it would take away a certain aspect (N/A) and it could do with a better soundtrack to go with any additional power.
Iv driven they gt86 and brz and i use my 350z every day on a 60mile comute. The gt and brz are great, sweet chassis but u have really got to work the motor to get moving and i think it wud be frustrating after a while. The only reason i wud have one over the nissan is fuel and wen u consider i saw a peak of 47mpg thismorning that dropped to a 38 average in the 350z at normal traffic speeds the argument is over.
BuzzLightyear said:
Good point!
If you can really leave the BMW dealership without having ticked ANY options on this, it would definitely be worth considering at just under £30k. Might have a bit of an issue at re-sale time but otherwise a definite contender.
ETA A brand new WRX STi lists at £32,995
Drivethedeal has an offer on the SUBARU WRX STI SALOON 2.5 WRX STi Type UK 4dr with alcantara/leather. £27.360 down from £33.495 so that's a saving of £6.135/19%.If you can really leave the BMW dealership without having ticked ANY options on this, it would definitely be worth considering at just under £30k. Might have a bit of an issue at re-sale time but otherwise a definite contender.
ETA A brand new WRX STi lists at £32,995
Edited by BuzzLightyear on Thursday 9th August 19:48
A different beast to rwd coupe/hatchbacks though.
Thats whay I like Jap cars. You have a few trim levels and you know exactly what you're buying.
With germans you take the list price which barely includes the car itself and then start ticking boxes on a mile-long list of options.
Heh, I remember when more expensive E46 didn't even come with alloy wheels in the base version while Mazda 6 has alloys and manual aircon in the basic spec while being much cheaper.
With germans you take the list price which barely includes the car itself and then start ticking boxes on a mile-long list of options.
Heh, I remember when more expensive E46 didn't even come with alloy wheels in the base version while Mazda 6 has alloys and manual aircon in the basic spec while being much cheaper.
Mr2Mike said:
Captain Muppet said:
That's you being precise is it?
Every time you publish something like that God kills a baby engineer.
Amusing, but out of context as the "force" referred to is not a physical one, but rather a conceptual "marketing" one.Every time you publish something like that God kills a baby engineer.
>retrainsasjournalist<
leon9191 said:
Iv driven they gt86 and brz and i use my 350z every day on a 60mile comute. The gt and brz are great, sweet chassis but u have really got to work the motor to get moving and i think it wud be frustrating after a while. The only reason i wud have one over the nissan is fuel and wen u consider i saw a peak of 47mpg thismorning that dropped to a 38 average in the 350z at normal traffic speeds the argument is over.
47mpg??? Really? If thats right 350z will be the next car i buy. Everything I've read said 25mpg is realistic and ive seen less than that reported on forums. Gaz. said:
Captain Muppet said:
Two six foot tall passengers can fit in on the passenger side without extreme discomfort, it's just the seat behind the driver where the rear foot space is unusable, unless the driver is a girl. I can fit behind Mrs Muppet when she's driving, making it big enough for four average-ish sized adult humans.
There is way more room in the back of a GT86 than there is in the back of a mkIV Supra, which seems a fair benchmark for a Toyota 2+2.
I had a look through the window of a GT86 on a dealer's forecourt yesterday, the back really doesn't look that big from the outside, perhaps it's a different story when you are actually in it but from my vantage point it looked mid way between my mkiv Supra and mkvii Celica.There is way more room in the back of a GT86 than there is in the back of a mkIV Supra, which seems a fair benchmark for a Toyota 2+2.
What annoys me is that the mkIV Supra (or RX7, or 968, or 911) isn't constantly slagged off for having no rear leg room, yet the GT86 is. Weird.
BuzzLightyear said:
dapearson said:
I'd rather have an M135i for the same £30k
Good point!If you can really leave the BMW dealership without having ticked ANY options on this, it would definitely be worth considering at just under £30k. Might have a bit of an issue at re-sale time but otherwise a definite contender.
ETA A brand new WRX STi lists at £32,995
Edited by BuzzLightyear on Thursday 9th August 19:48
And with the BMW's, the larger engined cars (or bigger numbered at least) always have a chunk of options already checked, that's part of the spec of the "better" cars, it's only the poverty models that you'll need to double the cost just on options!
jamespink said:
Has everyone gone mad? £20k you can buy a really great car: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/4121310.htm
When we have a new sports car story published we place a quick bet at the bookies on how long it takes before someone says buy a used Porsche instead.We do quite well, I'm writing this from Barbados
The thing with the toyobaru is, it's marketed as "affordable performance" & it's just not.
I know comparing second hand cars to new is futile, but Shirley if "affordable performance" is your priority, it's where you'll end up looking.
27 grand for one of them is faintly rediculous, we were at the ring on Monday & they had the launch event there, it's a smart looking thing I'll give you that. But that performance for that price? It's beyond a joke.
As said if it was 20-22 grand I could kind of see the attraction.
I know comparing second hand cars to new is futile, but Shirley if "affordable performance" is your priority, it's where you'll end up looking.
27 grand for one of them is faintly rediculous, we were at the ring on Monday & they had the launch event there, it's a smart looking thing I'll give you that. But that performance for that price? It's beyond a joke.
As said if it was 20-22 grand I could kind of see the attraction.
The thing with the toyobaru is, it's marketed as "affordable performance" & it's just not.
I know comparing second hand cars to new is futile, but Shirley if "affordable performance" is your priority, it's where you'll end up looking.
27 grand for one of them is faintly rediculous, we were at the ring on Monday & they had the launch event there, it's a smart looking thing I'll give you that. But that performance for that price? It's beyond a joke.
As said if it was 20-22 grand I could kind of see the attraction.
I know comparing second hand cars to new is futile, but Shirley if "affordable performance" is your priority, it's where you'll end up looking.
27 grand for one of them is faintly rediculous, we were at the ring on Monday & they had the launch event there, it's a smart looking thing I'll give you that. But that performance for that price? It's beyond a joke.
As said if it was 20-22 grand I could kind of see the attraction.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
The thing with the toyobaru is, it's marketed as "affordable performance" & it's just not.
I know comparing second hand cars to new is futile, but Shirley if "affordable performance" is your priority, it's where you'll end up looking.
27 grand for one of them is faintly rediculous, we were at the ring on Monday & they had the launch event there, it's a smart looking thing I'll give you that. But that performance for that price? It's beyond a joke.
As said if it was 20-22 grand I could kind of see the attraction.
I'm not really a new car buyer, so I'm probably out of touch with prices.I know comparing second hand cars to new is futile, but Shirley if "affordable performance" is your priority, it's where you'll end up looking.
27 grand for one of them is faintly rediculous, we were at the ring on Monday & they had the launch event there, it's a smart looking thing I'll give you that. But that performance for that price? It's beyond a joke.
As said if it was 20-22 grand I could kind of see the attraction.
Personally I think £27k is steep for the GT86 and I certainly wouldn't with my own money. Had it been £20-21k then I might well have looked seriously.
That said, I did check the BMW website a couple of days ago. For over £29,000 they'll sell you a no faster, low HP (184) Z4. By comparison the GT86 suddenly doesn't look so over priced.
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